• Welcome to the new COTI server. We've moved the Citizens to a new server. Please let us know in the COTI Website issue forum if you find any problems.
  • We, the systems administration staff, apologize for this unexpected outage of the boards. We have resolved the root cause of the problem and there should be no further disruptions.

Some Folks Were Looking Forward To It

Status
Not open for further replies.
Apart from maybe a handful of people who actually knows what T5 is to be ?
For all we know the playtest files might just be an amazing PR exercise and be nothing like the final product.
And lets face it all of this chat about what,how,why is a very cheap way of gaining attention to it.
 
My point here is simply that we're a small community which is subdivided to the point where it's inaccessible to newbies.

I had hoped that ACT might help in that area but it wasn't to be.

Speaking as a game publisher, my main problem is this - I publish a product that's only really appealing to the Traveller community and half of THEM aren't interested because it's not for their favourite version. This can make it economically unviable to publish new materials....
 
Originally posted by RogerCalver:
Apart from maybe a handful of people who actually knows what T5 is to be ?
For all we know the playtest files might just be an amazing PR exercise and be nothing like the final product.
Oh yeah, that'd be a brilliant bit of marketing :rolleyes: I give MWM more credit than that.

Originally posted by RogerCalver:
And lets face it all of this chat about what,how,why is a very cheap way of gaining attention to it.
The old adage that there's no such thing as bad publicity is wrong though. That may be one of the oldest media spins. And that's what most of this chat is, negatives about the direction T5 appears to be going.
 
Originally posted by RogerCalver:
Interesting...

"One early reference to troll found in the Google Usenet archive was by user "Mark Miller", directed toward the user "Tad", on February 8, 1990.[1] However, it is unclear if this instance represents a usage of "troll" as it is known today, or if it was simply a chance choice of epithet:

You are so far beyond being able to understand anything anyone here says that this is just converging on uselessness. The really sad part is that you really believe that you're winning. You are a shocking waste of natural resources — kindly re-integrate yourself into the food-chain. Just go die in your sleep you mindless flatulent troll."

Interesting yes, but far from the first usage of the term on the net.
 
I do think its crazy that the game has been around this long and only produced a half-dozen Beta and/or 1.0 type systems.

A "Revised Traveller Book" should have been made that incorporated revisions to clean up each component of the game. Instead... Megatraveller was released with tons of errata; and even just a corrected version of Megatraveller has never been produced.

Instead of dealing with the problem, TNE moved to the GDW house system.... And T4 was released with some pretty major errors as well and failed to live long enough to merit a second edition.

In the meanwhile, GURPS Space (ie, Traveller as Steve Jackson thought it 'ought' to be done) went through three editions. The GURPS core rules went through three editions and compiled two Compendiums of additional rules. These are both completely rewritten and refined in with 4th edition. (GT went through two editions... and its core rules were compiled and given the once-over for GT:IW.)

There are benefits to this sort of game sprawl, but it is mostly very irritating. BattleTech and Star Fleet Battles have all been revised; holes have been plugged; broken things have been fixed. I don't understand why there is a great fear of this in the Traveller world. You'd think it'd be the first order of business.
 
Originally posted by Malenfant:
1248 is systemless, IIRC.

Though it's interesting that you split up the rules to support their settings. Does that mean that really there's no such thing as "Traveller" - just the individual rulesets and settings themselves?
We could treat each as a different game with its own tiny set of fanatics.

I think the COTI and TML communities divide up based mainly on rules. Setting plays a lesser part.
 
There are benefits to this sort of game sprawl, but it is mostly very irritating. BattleTech and Star Fleet Battles have all been revised; holes have been plugged; broken things have been fixed. I don't understand why there is a great fear of this in the Traveller world. You'd think it'd be the first order of business.
Because, as I've pointed out before, the Traveller fanbase has got it ass-backwards. The key problem that is holding everything back is that people insist that the old should take precedence over the new. Well, in pretty much everything else I can think of, a new version of a product supercedes the old one.

After TNE I think it's got to the point where publishers are actually afraid to add new material for fear of contradicting something done in the past. I worked closely with one of the authors of GURPS Sword Worlds while fixing the planets for the book there, and I got the distinct impression that they were having to tread very carefully with everything they said. And that's just ridiculous.

It's especially annoying because most of the time, any changes between old and new versions aren't even relevant to the games being played. I can't imagine why anyone would want to switch to a new system mid-game when they're happy with what they're playing.

But at the end of the day I think that's what is getting in the way of fixing and patching things that need to be fixed, because there's this enormous inertia and hostility to change among a large subset (or a loud minority?) of the fanbase. To be honest, I think the most "fixed" version of Traveller around is probably GURPS Traveller, and it seems clear that those who wanted to embrace that change went off to play GT and keep pretty much to themselves (particularly given the outright hostility that some people have shown them). But with T5, Marc doesn't even seem interested in any problems with the existing systems (or even in what the fanbase actually wants), he seems to be churning out yet another "new" system which is bound to contain more flaws of its own that will cause more problems.

EDIT: As an example: Let's say you're developing a new sector for publication. In the process, you find out that there are errors in the existing data that already exists (dodgy UWPs, star types that shouldn't exist) and also that there are conflicting dates for historical events, or dates that just plain don't make sense (e.g. something is discovered a thousand years before anyone was even in the area). The expectation seems to be that whatever is already written is inviolate and cannot be changed, so you have to build your sector around these errors and explain them in elaborate, highly unlikely ways.

In a sane environment, the developer would be allowed to make any changes necessary for things to make sense - and then when that product is release that is the new canon. And if anyone finds any subsequent errors in that, then that gets updated and changed and the result becomes the reference for everyone to go by. But it makes no sense at all for errors and contradictions and fuzzy definitions to actually be propagated in new products because nobody is allowed to change them.
 
Originally posted by far-trader:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by RogerCalver:
[qb] Apart from maybe a handful of people who actually knows what T5 is to be ?
For all we know the playtest files might just be an amazing PR exercise and be nothing like the final product.
Oh yeah, that'd be a brilliant bit of marketing :rolleyes: I give MWM more credit than that.</font>[/QUOTE]I would give him more credit if he was listening to what people actually want for Traveller but T5 shows us thats not happening.
 
Originally posted by MJD:
I do sometimes despair for the future of our game, in that the fan base isn't really getting all that much bigger, if at all. The fact that we've player for 20-30 years is what keeps the game from dying... but not dying is different from healthy growth.
If it helps any, that's true for all other first-generation games apart from D&D. But partly that's because of a general downturn in RPGs across the board.

Once again excluding D&D (and to a lesser extent the nWoD), it's not as if there are these massively popular new RPGs out there that rake in all the $$$ and players; and why oh why doesn't T5 capitalize on that?

To repeat Ken Hite's recent observation: So far, in the 21st century, there has been only one majorly successful RPG that has not been either a license or an edition: Exalted.

Paul Chapman recently said the market-share industry rule of thumb for a long time has been: D&D (notd20): 50%, WoD: 25%, Absolutely Everything Else Including d20: 25%.

Given all this, if T5 did as well as e.g. Mongoose RuneQuest, which, depending on quality, marketing and production values it may well do (or not), that would be just fine.

There'd be some online arguing over rules etc., but by and large people would be glad to see cool new stuff coming out.
 
Originally posted by Malenfant:
I think you've been far more trollish than I have, to be honest - you don't seem to want to discuss things, you just want to prance and leap about finding supposed logical flaws in my argument.
Anyone who cares to go back and re-read the thread can see that that's blatantly false.
Originally posted by Malenfant:
I see posts by the likes of flykiller and kafka47 that may be well-meaning in their intent but they just have no connection with the reality of the game at all. If we're to get anywhere with where Traveller is going, people have to get a grip and start treating the game for what it is, not the imaginary ideal that they want it to be.
They have no connection with reality at all?!?
file_21.gif


As far as I can tell, they enjoy playing Traveller with their friends. What other "ideal" is anyone supposed to care about? MWM's artistic vision? FFE's, QLI's, and ComStar's quarterly balance sheets? Your opinion of what is "best?" What is this supposed "ideal" here? What is the "reality" that they are missing?
 
Originally posted by flykiller:
do you play the game?
I've played it. I've written for it too, as a matter of fact. But as I've said, whether anyone plays the game or not doesn't make any difference to the validity of their arguments.
 
Originally posted by The Shaman:
]Anyone who cares to go back and re-read the thread can see that that's blatantly false.
Well, you were the one going on about merry-go-rounds and woo, how you just couldn't keep up with things instead of just talking about the matter at hand. Particularly since there was nothing confusing about what I said in the first place.


They have no connection with reality at all?!?
file_21.gif
No, they don't, because if you read their posts you'll see a lot of flowery "rally the troops" type stuff about how Traveller can do anything and how it's the best thing ever and how Traveller can save the world, that just isn't true. Their fanboy-ness is blinding them to reality - that Traveller is a game with many flaws, that the current market has changed since it was first released, that RPG design has changed since then too, that other games are around that can do things a lot better than Traveller can, and that Traveller really doesn't have all that much to offer anymore that sets it apart from the crowd. It's just a game, like all the others out there, and we've got to look at it for what it is.

As far as I can tell, they enjoy playing Traveller with their friends.
Good for them. I've never had any issues with what people enjoy.

What other "ideal" is anyone supposed to care about?
The ideal that some people keep touting is the one where the next version of Traveller is going to be the best ever, that's going to solve all the problems and thrust Traveller to the forefront of the SF RPG market and make everything else irrelevant. Or that it already is that.

Again, that's not going to happen. FFE is far too small-scale a publisher to make any big waves in the industry, especially with a ruleset for T5 that doesn't really offer anything new or attractive to anybody, and especially not when SF roleplaying isn't even all that popular as it is.

What is the "reality" that they are missing?
The reality is that today's RPG market isn't what it was in the 1970s when CT came out. What flew then isn't going to fly now, at least not beyond a tiny minority of roleplayers.
 
Originally posted by Rhialto the Marvelous:
Paul Chapman recently said the market-share industry rule of thumb for a long time has been: D&D (notd20): 50%, WoD: 25%, Absolutely Everything Else Including d20: 25%.[/QB]
Last time I saw market shares mentioned (I've lost the link, but I think Ken Hite was talking about it) I thought it was more that the Top 5 (WotC, WW, Palladium, and I think Mongoose and SJG?) accounted for about 90% of the market, and everyone else was the other 10%. But yeah, the point is that D&D and WW are very big indeed.


It's interesting that you mentioned nWOD though. For anyone who doesn't know, WW had five major (and several minor) lines set in their World Of Darkness - then a few years back they said "OK, we're ending this all now" and released "end of the world" type supplements for them, and that was that.

Then a year later they rebooted everything from scratch - even changing some of the fundamental concepts of the games - and made a NEW World of Darkness unrelated to the old one. And the rules for the nWoD were somewhat refined from the oWoD too.

Sure, there was some gnashing of teeth about it, but at least things went out with a bang for the oWod. At the end of the day the nWoD has been generally well received and is doing quite well for itself, and I guess the fans of the old WoD are just continuing to play with the games that they were playing.

I guess the same goes for AD&D -> D&D3e. I don't see large parts of the D&D community frothing at the mouth about how old D&D was so much better and how everything has to stick to that. They've tweaked many things in new D&D and by and large most people have just accepted it.

It just goes to show that "reboots" can be made to work. But then you look at TNE and how the traveller community reacted to that and anyone would think GDW had burned the holy bible in front of a bunch of christian fundamentalists. And even then (like oWod to nWoD), people had some warning of what was coming in the shape of "Survival Margin". But it just goes to show how differently people here react to the same thing...
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top