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Some IMTU stuff

There's another one - a trilogy - but I can't remember the author or the titles at the moment. I can picture the covers - everything but the title and author...............
 
Is it in the Kinunir book?

That was my second guess, but the reference is in neither Kinunir nor The Traveller Book (I should've known TTB wouldn't have it; it was published in 1983, well after the Imperium reached its current form). I'm betting its in JTAS #1.
 
It was in Research Station Gamma and Twilight's Peak library data sections.

The OTU suffered its great paradigm shift post Twilight's Peak.
 
The USA did WHAT??? And you're telling me Texas couldn't have managed to pull together a space flight program? Balderdash! Texas needs to be on that list somewhere!:D

Capella IV had been settled during the first wave of extrasolar colonization, after the Fourth World—or First Interplanetary—War. Some time around 2100. The settlers had come from a place in North America called Texas, one of the old United States. They had a lengthy history—independent republic, admission to the United States, secession from the United States, reconquest by the United States, and general intransigence under the United States, the United Nations and the Solar League. When the laws of non-Einsteinian physics were discovered and the hyperspace-drive was developed, practically the entire population of Texas had taken to space to find a new home and independence from everybody.

Extracted from the Lone Star Planet, see Project Gutenberg under H. Beam Piper. It is available online for download. Great reading.
 
A long range scouting campaign involving the PCs which turns into a first contact situation with another long range scouting group of FTL aliens would be lots of fun.

That shows up as the plot in one of Larry Niven's "Tales of Known Space" stories, There is a Tide, where Louis Wu comes into contact with the Trinocs.

It also showed up a LONG time ago in Analog magazine, must have been the early 1960s, in a short story about two planetary scouts that encounter each other.
 
You can say that again.



Wait a minute... ;)

Given the changes that happened to the setting, CT should almost be considered two games.

Funny, but there's a name 'round here for the pre-change OTU - "ProtoTraveller"
 
I wonder if Marc would ever allow development of the proto-Traveller OTU.

IF we ever have another 10 questions to ask Marc chance I have 2 i would love answering:

why was the library data in these early adventure overwritten instead of retained for the LD supplements

what was so wrong with HG1 that we got HG2 within a year - were they both being worked on at the same time?
 
Funny, but there's a name 'round here for the pre-change OTU - "ProtoTraveller"

What would you say are the important or interesting points of difference between the setting implied or described in the early stuff and the post Twlight's Peak canonical setting?
 
what was so wrong with HG1 that we got HG2 within a year - were they both being worked on at the same time?

One of the GDW staffers answered that already - No, it wasn't worked on at the same time, and it was a revision due to a realization that it mishandled weapons factors for ships over 1000Td... But I'll be damned if I can find where.

HG1 differs a good bit.. skimming it...
Bays are 10, 50 or 100 Td, rather than just 50 or 100.
All PP are 1 Td/rating.
All fighters are 15 Td and take 20; launch tubes take 500. (25 times the hangar space, not the fighter's space)
Turret USP is based upon turrets per 1000Td of ship.
Armor works differently and there is no reason to use less than max for the TL... as the %Hull drops per AF, and the TL climbs per AF.
BIS models to 7bis, no models 8/9
bridge is "20 tons per 1000 tons of ship" rather than 2%.
 
One of the GDW staffers answered that already - No, it wasn't worked on at the same time, and it was a revision due to a realization that it mishandled weapons factors for ships over 1000Td... But I'll be damned if I can find where.

HG1 differs a good bit.. skimming it...
Bays are 10, 50 or 100 Td, rather than just 50 or 100.
All PP are 1 Td/rating.
All fighters are 15 Td and take 20; launch tubes take 500. (25 times the hangar space, not the fighter's space)
Turret USP is based upon turrets per 1000Td of ship.
Armor works differently and there is no reason to use less than max for the TL... as the %Hull drops per AF, and the TL climbs per AF.
BIS models to 7bis, no models 8/9
bridge is "20 tons per 1000 tons of ship" rather than 2%.

I hadn't realized that High Guard was revised substantially.

Hmmm..

It appears my somewhat battered copt is 'HG1', then. I just checked and it has three bay sizes listed.

Publication date is 1979.
 
What would you say are the important or interesting points of difference between the setting implied or described in the early stuff and the post Twlight's Peak canonical setting?
There are quite a few.

The most critical being the pro to-Traveller OTU (pOTU) uses the LBB2 original edition rules and so is a small ship setting where jump ships do not need power plants.

The TL development of jump drives allows for higher jump numbers at lower TLs.

The description of capital is the only system that allows crossing of the rift.

The Imperium of pOTU is often portrayed as the bad guys. Corrupt nobles, political prisoners, a much darker setting in general.
 
What would you say are the important or interesting points of difference between the setting implied or described in the early stuff and the post Twlight's Peak canonical setting?


Mike's post covers nearly all of the salient points.

If I was to try to sum up in one word the differences between the proto-Traveller setting and the later CT setting I'd choose the word: Size.

Everything in later CT is bigger. Ships are bigger, weapons are bigger, the Imperium is physically bigger, the power the Imperium wields is bigger, you name it and it's bigger.

Take the Kinunir example. She's often used to illustrate the huge changes wrought by HG2. In LBB:2 she's an actual battlecruiser and in HG2 she's little more than a joke, but there are other examples of the paradigm shift in that booklet too.

For instance, look at the claim that one of the Kinunirs was given to the Vegans as a gift. Given the size of the Imperium in later CT that claim is absolute nonsense. Why would the Imperium even make the effort to transfer a nearly worthless warship 10 sectors or so to Vega? In proto-Traveller, however, the size of the Imperium is only vaguely implied and the distance between the Marches and Vega is never stated. Suddenly the claim isn't as idiotic as it seems.

In proto-Traveller, Vega could have been next door to the Marches because we just don't know how those two locations relate to each other. In later CT, you can actually count the hexes between the Marches and the Rim. We know how the two locations relate to each other and that makes the claim about the Vegans receiving a Kinunir as a gift absolute rubbish.

If you think size and/or bigger when you contemplate the differences between CT's "Proto" setting and it's "Later" setting, you can't go too wrong.
 
In proto-Traveller, Vega could have been next door to the Marches because we just don't know how those two locations relate to each other. In later CT, you can actually count the hexes between the Marches and the Rim. We know how the two locations relate to each other and that makes the claim about the Vegans receiving a Kinunir as a gift absolute rubbish.

We know the two sectors are NOT adjacent - the boundary subsectors don't match up. Might only be one or two sectors apart, tho, rather than the nearly 10 of the cOTU.

I think Leviathan really should be included in Proto as well. I'll use it's pub as the boundary myself... in part because it has 1200Td battlecruisers, and 600Td frigates, and considers "Leviathan" fitting for 1800Td.

A1 is 1979, A2-A4 are 1980
DA1 & DA2 are 1980
S1 is 1978, S2-S4 are 1979, S5-S7 are 1980

S5 is really the first "Big Ship" book...
The Map of Charted Space is in S8, which is 1981.
 
A1 is 1979, A2-A4 are 1980
DA1 & DA2 are 1980
S1 is 1978, S2-S4 are 1979, S5-S7 are 1980

S5 is really the first "Big Ship" book...
The Map of Charted Space is in S8, which is 1981.

Am I correct in assuming that A1 stands for Adventure 1, The Kinunir, DA1 stands for Double Adventure 1 (Annic Nova and Shadows), and S1 is Supplement 1?
 
We know the two sectors are NOT adjacent - the boundary subsectors don't match up. Might only be one or two sectors apart, tho, rather than the nearly 10 of the cOTU.


Thanks to those boundary subsector names you wisely mention we knew the Marches was some distance from the Rim. Very early on I'd thought the Marches might abut the Rim in an AZ-CO-NM-UT four corners style arrangement, but when I got S:10 the boundary subsector names trailing and rimward of Trin's Veil don't match up the boundary subsector names coreward and spinward of Ultima. (Getting books wasn't easy back then. I got S:10 well before S:8.)

I think Leviathan really should be included in Proto as well. I'll use it's pub as the boundary myself... in part because it has 1200Td battlecruisers, and 600Td frigates, and considers "Leviathan" fitting for 1800Td.

A:4 is definitely Proto, if not an Alternate.

A1 is 1979, A2-A4 are 1980
DA1 & DA2 are 1980
S1 is 1978, S2-S4 are 1979, S5-S7 are 1980

S5 is really the first "Big Ship" book...
The Map of Charted Space is in S8, which is 1981.

Good dates. You'll noticed that A:4, a definite Proto book, was released the same year as S:5/HG2 which is the Big Ship book. I think this overlap needs to be stressed. The boundary between the Proto and Big Ship settings isn't a sharp one. There are plenty whiffs and echoes of Proto through MT.
 
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Actually, Bill, I see very little Proto left after 1980. A4 is an oddball - it was produced in early '79 by Games Workshop, over in the UK. (WD mentions the development while ongoing.) GWUK was lagging behind the GDW releases from what I understand.

So, Leviathan is a remnant built upon old data.

S10 isn't Proto - but it's useful for it.

Genuine Pre-HG2 sources give us a few subsectors not in the marches... in Leviathan.

I'll note that the Judges Guild sectors - a 4x4 block - are also proto/canonical stradler
Ley 1980
MA, Glimmerdrift, and Crucis: 1981.

As with Leviathan, Ley is clearly small ship. The big ship is a cruiser of 1000 Td.
A 1000 ton Cruiser, with Jump, Power Plant, and Maneuver Drives of V, giving it Jump 4 and 4 gs maneuver. 600 tons fuel provide for Jump 4 or a Jump 2. The Colonial Fleet Cruiser carries 10 Turrets, and a 10 ton Particle Accelerator. (Code 9). IS Gunnem, two Pilots, two Navigators, one Steward, four Engineers, and three Medics make for a crew of 27. A Model 4 Computer is installed and 23 of the 115 tons of Cargo Space are devoted to Missile storage.​
The other three lack the space encounters table. Yes, it's a HG1 ship. but it's still Small Ship universe.
 
Actually, Bill, I see very little Proto left after 1980. A4 is an oddball - it was produced in early '79 by Games Workshop, over in the UK. (WD mentions the development while ongoing.) GWUK was lagging behind the GDW releases from what I understand.

So, Leviathan is a remnant built upon old data.

S10 isn't Proto - but it's useful for it.

Genuine Pre-HG2 sources give us a few subsectors not in the marches... in Leviathan.

I'll note that the Judges Guild sectors - a 4x4 block - are also proto/canonical stradler
Ley 1980
MA, Glimmerdrift, and Crucis: 1981.

As with Leviathan, Ley is clearly small ship. The big ship is a cruiser of 1000 Td.
A 1000 ton Cruiser, with Jump, Power Plant, and Maneuver Drives of V, giving it Jump 4 and 4 gs maneuver. 600 tons fuel provide for Jump 4 or a Jump 2. The Colonial Fleet Cruiser carries 10 Turrets, and a 10 ton Particle Accelerator. (Code 9). IS Gunnem, two Pilots, two Navigators, one Steward, four Engineers, and three Medics make for a crew of 27. A Model 4 Computer is installed and 23 of the 115 tons of Cargo Space are devoted to Missile storage.​
The other three lack the space encounters table. Yes, it's a HG1 ship. but it's still Small Ship universe.

That explains why I am not a fan of later books then, as I prefer a small-ship universe as better fitting my view of Traveller.
 
Actually, Bill, I see very little Proto left after 1980.


I see the Proto mindset - small ships actually matter commercially and/or militarily, the Imperium usually stretched thin and usually unable to act, etc. - limping along after 1980 and that influencing both the tenor of adventures and the thinking behind them.

I suppose the best way I can describe this feeling is to use the terms "normal" and "exceptional". Certain adventures and the situations behind them which were "normal" in Proto setting/mindset, could only be "exceptional" in the Big Ship/Imperium setting/mindset. Their "exceptional" nature, however, isn't normally commented on in the materials and that leads to confusion.

How many times have we read posters suggesting certain adventures and the situations behind them are "universal" within the setting when in fact both are entirely dependent on time and place? That's what I'm bloviating about when I suggest the Proto mindset lingered.

A4 is an oddball - it was produced in early '79 by Games Workshop, over in the UK. (WD mentions the development while ongoing.) GWUK was lagging behind the GDW releases from what I understand. So, Leviathan is a remnant built upon old data.

Yup, it's pre-1980 despite the pub date but...

S10 isn't Proto - but it's useful for it.

... we've got Proto useful, if not Proto throwback, materials being put out by GDW and, more importantly, authorized third party publishers after 1980.

Again, that's why I think Proto in the form of a mindset or tenor lingered on well past 1980.
 
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