Some Interesting Military Data

[Carlobrand]

... To few people realize the perils sailors went, and still go, through.

Mary Celeste, infamous as a mystery ship whose crew vanished without trace, was carrying wooden barrels of alcohol when her crew disappeared. She was still under sail when found, undamaged but thoroughly wet, the lifeboat was missing along with the sextant and chronometer, and a line tied to the boat was trailing in the water, with the trailing end frayed. When taken to port and unloaded, nine barrels of alcohol were found to be empty: they were made from a different, more porous wood than the rest.

The best guess based on the evidence is that the captain found his hold filled with alcohol fumes; the ship's complement then took to the lifeboat out of fear that the ship was at risk of explosion, tying the lifeboat to the ship in apparent hope that they might return once the fumes had vented and danger had passed. In their haste to depart, they left the ship under sail, and the line gave under the stress, leaving them stranded at sea in a lifeboat - and a storm came through the area. The lifeboat foundered in the storm, taking its occupants to the bottom. Among the occupants, besides captain and crew, was the captain's wife and his two-year-old daughter.

One of the more notable maritime disasters involved SS Grandcamp, a freighter whose cargo of ammonium nitrate - fertilizer - caught fire and then exploded off Texas City in 1947. The blast caused a fire in another ship carrying ammonium nitrate, High Flyer; that ship too exploded, despite a brave effort by her crew to get that ship free and out of the port. Nearly a thousand buildings were destroyed and hundreds of people killed.

Here's a really wild set of pictures of a tugboat on a truly interesting day at work:

http://www.cargolaw.com/2002nightmare_towboat.html

 

[JimMarn]

There were a fair number of sailing schooners and steamers lost on the Great Lakes for precisely that reason of the grain cargo swelling. It still is an issue today. Same thing with lumber cargos shifting or ore or pig iron cargos shifting. Lumber was bad as normally a fair amount was carried on deck. Sailing the great waters is still a hazardous trade.

I've been through a hurricane at sea on a US Navy destroyer. Got to us, we couldn't outrun it due to various steam plant problems, about 4 PM local. Around 5 AM the next day we got clear. We almost capsized multiple times.

How close did we come ? The ship I was on would turn over at 65 degrees fro vertical. One of the guys on bridge watch told me the ship kept goiing to around 55-57 degrees form vertical.

I almost didn't post this. It was years ago though, doesn't give me nightmares anymore, not for decades.

 

[Vladika]

I've been through a hurricane at sea on a US Navy destroyer.

Typhoon Cobra, also known as the Typhoon of 1944 or Halsey's Typhoon:

...three destroyers capsized and sank, and a total of 790 lives were lost. Nine other warships were damaged, and over 100 aircraft were wrecked or washed overboard; the aircraft carrier Monterey was forced to battle a serious fire that was caused by a plane hitting a bulkhead...

 

[BlackBat242]

Interesting. As several documentaries on pre-steam RN ship life I have watched mentions women on board. Probably none on the way to known major battles though, as far as I know.

The following is a brief account of the loss of the first-rate HMS Royal George by capsizing in harbor. It is taken from 52 Stories of the Royal Navy, published in 1896, downloaded from Project Gutenberg. Notice the number of women and children onboard.

At this fatal moment there were nearly twelve hundred persons on board, including about two hundred and fifty women and several children, chiefly belonging to the seamen, who had been permitted to go on board when the ship cast anchor at Spithead and to remain there until the order for sailing arrived.

Aboard only while in port.

 

[Reban]

Women onboard ship in the Royal Navy

Quoting from Nelson's Navy by Brian Lavery (the major source used by Patrick O'Brien author of Master and Commander):

Despite the regulations women were often carried to sea. Many of these were wives of officers or petty officers, and had a definite role aboard the ship, often looking after the sick and wounded. In the 1840's when two women applied for the Naval General Service Medal, on the grounds that they had been present at the Battles of the Nile and Trafalgar, it was refused because it would create a precedent which would be followed by "innumerable applications" from many others. At the battle of the First of June a chaplain observed, "The women of the ship were almost all quartered in the cockpit to assist the surgeon". Though marines had no right to take their wives to sea, soldiers were covered by different rules even when at sea; married women were allowed to follow their men. at the rate of five per company. Thus when soldiers were drafted aboard ship in the 1790's women were taken with them, and appeared on the ship's muster books - three on the Captain, five on the Ergmont, and eleven on the Britannia, for example.

It must be remembered that Captains of the period had a much wider writ on what could and couldn't happen on their ship and how the ship was run. Also consider the number of female pirate captains we know about...women at sea were a lot more common than depictions of life at sea show.

Merchant ships masters at the turn of the last century regularly had the owners permission to bring their wives and families aboard ship.

I've heard a few accounts of families of Merchant Marine officers who took their families to sea during the summer in the 1950's and 60's.


Hey if the Sea is a cruel Mistress wouldn't most wives want to keep a close eye on their husbands

 

[Timerover51]

Quoting from Nelson's Navy by Brian Lavery (the major source used by Patrick O'Brien author of Master and Commander):

It must be remembered that Captains of the period had a much wider writ on what could and couldn't happen on their ship and how the ship was run. Also consider the number of female pirate captains we know about...women at sea were a lot more common than depictions of life at sea show.

Merchant ships masters at the turn of the last century regularly had the owners permission to bring their wives and families aboard ship.

I've heard a few accounts of families of Merchant Marine officers who took their families to sea during the summer in the 1950's and 60's.

Hey if the Sea is a cruel Mistress wouldn't most wives want to keep a close eye on their husbands

In looking through the accounts of some of the ships on the Great Lakes, a fair number of them had women cooks and stewards onboard in the 1800s. Also, whaling ship captains, on a regular basis, brought their wives and families along on the extended voyages. It was not uncommon for children to be born onboard a whaling ship. This was especially true of the steam whalers in the Arctic in the late 1800s pursuing the Bowhead Whale for its baleen. There was at least one case of a whaling ship being wrecked because the wife of its captain could not stand the wife of another ships captain.

For a very interesting account of some actual whaling voyages I would highly recommend Frank Bullen's Cruise of the Cachalot, which can be downloaded at Project Gutenberg. I have talked with the people at the Mystic Seaport Whaling Museum, and they have documented Bullen as being on board a total of 4 whaling ships, rising in rank from Able Seaman to First Mate. The book accounts are a compilation of his experiences on board those ships. Reading that should give a good Game Master some ideas.

 

[SpaceBadger]

There was at least one case of a whaling ship being wrecked because the wife of its captain could not stand the wife of another ships captain.

So they rammed the other ship, or what? o:

 

[Timerover51]

So they rammed the other ship, or what? o:

I will get out my copy of Whales, Ice, and Men and get the story posted.

 

[Fritz_Brown]

I will get out my copy of Whales, Ice, and Men and get the story posted.

That sounds like a story of a particular sort of bar at closing time........ :toast:

 

[Timerover51]

So they rammed the other ship, or what? o:

It happened during the Arctic Whaling Disaster of 1897-98. The following account is based on that given by John Bockstoce in his book, Whales, Ice, and Men, a history of Arctic Bowhead whaling.

The steam whaler Navarch was with a group of 19 other whaling ships near Icy Cape on the north coast of Alaska. Her 58-year-old captain had a 20-year-old wife onboard who "thoroughly disliked" the middle-age wife of the Karluk whaler. When the Karluk reached the anchorage, the captain of the Navarch moved his ship further east out towards Point Barrow. The Navarch was then trapped by the Arctic pack ice and carried by a current past Point Barrow, where the ship was abandoned. The story of the ship's crew makes for very interesting reading. The Navarch was evidently caught in a current gyre, as after drifting to the northeast of Point Barrow, she reappeared off of the Point. She was burned in February of 1898 by two sailors from the wrecked whaler Orca who were tired of unloading coal from her and dragging it across the ice to Point Barrow for fuel for the survivors of the Navarch, Orca, Rosario, and Jesse Freeman. These two clearly were not the brightest of whale-oil lamps.

I first read about the disaster when I was in the Army in Alaska, and I have since tracked down Bocktoce's books on Arctic whaling.

 

[Carlobrand]

... The Navarch was evidently caught in a current gyre, as after drifting to the northeast of Point Barrow, she reappeared off of the Point. She was burned in February of 1898 by two sailors from the wrecked whaler Orca who were tired of unloading coal from her and dragging it across the ice to Point Barrow for fuel for the survivors of the Navarch, Orca, Rosario, and Jesse Freeman. These two clearly were not the brightest of whale-oil lamps.
...

While it's hard to characterize their behavior as anything but stupid and despicable, one should perhaps take some small measure of pity on them: unloading and hauling cargo in temperatures cold enough to lock ships in ice must be a truly, truly miserable experience.

Karluk went on to meet an unpleasant fate of her own, losing almost half her complement after becoming trapped in ice in 1914.

 

[Timerover51]

While it's hard to characterize their behavior as anything but stupid and despicable, one should perhaps take some small measure of pity on them: unloading and hauling cargo in temperatures cold enough to lock ships in ice must be a truly, truly miserable experience.

Karluk went on to meet an unpleasant fate of her own, losing almost half her complement after becoming trapped in ice in 1914.

I did my Army time in Alaska, among other things unloading C-130s on the airstrip at Fort Greely at 62 below straight cold, not counting the wind chill from the prop blast from the engines as they could not shut them down. It took 15 minutes to unload the C-130 by hand, as my one rough-terrain fork lift was needed elsewhere. Five minutes was the max working time for my unloading crew, so the last five minutes was covered by me as Second Lieutenant-Supply Platoon commander, a Chief Warrant Officer 2, 2 E-7, and 2 E-6. I nearly punched out an Air Force First Lieutenant who got mad at me for getting my hands dirty for helping with the unloading. He was inside the aircraft, wearing a heated flying suit. I was wearing the standard Army cold-weather gear.

In response, having been there and done that, no, I do not have pity on them. They were jeopardizing not only there own lives, but the lives of about 100 more men. As it was, the group at Point Barrow had to tear down one of the buildings housing the shipwrecked crews for sufficient fuel to get through the winter.

 

[Vladika]

They were jeopardizing not only there own lives, but the lives of about 100 more men. As it was, the group at Point Barrow had to tear down one of the buildings housing the shipwrecked crews for sufficient fuel to get through the winter.

I think their action was beyond stupid. Criminally so. Had I been in charge there, short of needing their future labor, I'd have executed them. Both as an example to others, and to prevent them doing something else so recklessly stupid to jeopardize the lives of everyone else.

Harsh by modern standards, perhaps, but a commander in that kind of situation can't afford that, or any other, kind of mutiny. Make no bones about it, that was mutiny.

 

[JimMarn]

While I've never unloaded cargo in that level of cold, I have been up on the signal bridge at night, somewhere in the North Atlantic, looking for survivors of a crashed patrol plane. We had been in an anti-submarine warfare exercise back about 1970. The Quartermaster of the Watch, helps the navigator not keep track of supplies, kept announcnig that the water was 38 degrees F and the distance to dry land which was over 100 miles away. After a while, the Captain told him to stop. If we had capsized, the seas were running 20-30 foot swells, survival time was less than the time it would take another ship to get there and rescue us. We didn't find any of the crew on the aircraft, just partial remains of one person.

Unloading that coal was for their own survival. What they were doing was incredibly idiotic. They should have been set outside and left to feel the result of their nonsense. ( I kept it clean...) And not let back in.

 

[Timerover51]

While I've never unloaded cargo in that level of cold, I have been up on the signal bridge at night, somewhere in the North Atlantic, looking for survivors of a crashed patrol plane. We had been in an anti-submarine warfare exercise back about 1970. The Quartermaster of the Watch, helps the navigator not keep track of supplies, kept announcnig that the water was 38 degrees F and the distance to dry land which was over 100 miles away. After a while, the Captain told him to stop. If we had capsized, the seas were running 20-30 foot swells, survival time was less than the time it would take another ship to get there and rescue us. We didn't find any of the crew on the aircraft, just partial remains of one person.

Unloading that coal was for their own survival. What they were doing was incredibly idiotic. They should have been set outside and left to feel the result of their nonsense. ( I kept it clean...) And not let back in.

Well, when the whaling fleet was operating at Herschel Island off of the Yukon Coast, the skippers tended to carry revolvers a lot, and greatly welcome the present of an Anglican missionary and the Mounties. The US Revenue Cutters, predecessor of the Coast Guard were also greatly appreciated in keeping some of the less-reliable members of the crew under control. Problem in 1897 was the Revenue Cutter Bear was not in the area, and they were just off of Point Barrow. The North Coast of Alaska is a very nice ships graveyard for whaling ships, on par with the Dardanelles and Iron Bottom Sound. I have been to and flown over Iron Bottom Sound, but have not made it to the Dardanelles as yet.

 

[JimMarn]

Sable Island, about 400 miles southeast of Nova Scotia is also a ships' graveyard back as far as the 1500s AD.

Canadian government site:
http://museum.gov.ns.ca/mnh/nature/sableisland/english_en/index_en.htm

 

[Timerover51]

The US Great Lakes also have their share of wrecks, with the most recent estimate being around 7500 wrecks in the lakes. A large number of those were wooden sailing ships that were driven ashore in storms and wrecked there.

Weather can also play a major role in military operations, along with sinking ships.

 

[selunatic2397]

For someone who said they were leaving this site you seem to spend a fair amount of time each day lurking here timerover...I clicked on your name and was surprised to see you were on site each day since your departure speech.

Odd behavior considering the phrasing of the post.

 

[Carlobrand]

For someone who said they were leaving this site you seem to spend a fair amount of time each day lurking here timerover...I clicked on your name and was surprised to see you were on site each day since your departure speech.

Odd behavior considering the phrasing of the post.

1. I'm not clear how that relates to the topic of the thread.

2. You did notice that he got banned, yes? Several days back. Short of him finding some way to satisfy the administrators that he has reformed his ways, the ban means he is unable to explain his behavior or to otherwise respond in any way to your post ... which makes the post a wee bit unfair, I think.

And, lest we feel some urge to go there, I suspect said administrators would take a dim view of our discussing his ban at any length in this thread.

Perhaps we could discuss ship graveyards as they apply to the Traveller setting, and what circumstances besides battle might create them. Are there solar phemonena that might overwhelm the electronics of a Traveller-tech ship, something serious enough that the ship would be abandoned rather than salvaged?

 

[McPerth]

Just to make it clear, we don't use to discuss about bannings, but in this specific case:

From time to time, users ask to have their account locked.

This uses the banning system as the easiest way to lock an account. The following banned users are banned at their own request; they can use the contact us link to request reinstatement should they choose.

• Timerover51

and

Banned accounts can still read all the open areas of the board.

So, he's free to watch the board, and he would be to ask for his account reactivated, and, by my part, he will be wellcome back.

Aside from that, I agree with Carlobrand in:

1. I'm not clear how that relates to the topic of the thread.