Some Interesting Military Data

[Timerover51]

In some respects, reading accounts of naval operations in World War One is quite odd, as the authors spend a fair amount of time vilifying the Germans for the "unrestricted submarine campaign". as the author of the US Navy history of the Bureau of Ordnance does below.

Although the Germans did not make a formal declaration of their policy of sinking without warning and without regard to the laws of the seas and humanity, until February, 1917, they had, nevertheless, for a number of months previously increased the numbers of their sinkings of this purely piratical type.

I find myself wondering how many of them lived to see the "unrestricted submarine campaign" waged by the US Navy against Japan. I also wonder at times how they or for that matter, the current populace, would react to what the US did to the Japanese at the Battle of the Bismarck Sea in March of 1943.

 

[HG_B]

I find myself wondering how many of them lived to see the "unrestricted submarine campaign" waged by the US Navy against Japan. I also wonder at times how they or for that matter, the current populace, would react to what the US did to the Japanese at the Battle of the Bismarck Sea in March of 1943.

See the nuremberg trial of Doenitz

 

[RatPatrol]

I am continually amazed at how much "Stuff" is needed to run an army!

In 1900's there was a push to 'Pave America'

most roads in the interior or 10 miles outside a major city quickly turned to dirt, some better maintained then others this is in the days of the foundation of the Lincoln Highway ..... it was laid out, but not paved yet.

anyhow, in 1919 a transcontinental trip was planed, one or more of each popular truck of the time was taken and off they went.

http://www.fhwa.dot.gov/infrastructure/convoy.cfm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1919_Motor_Transport_Corps_convoy

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transcontinental_Motor_Convoy




it took 56 days .... some days they averaged 15 mph some days 10 ... depending on breakdowns and obstacles .... sometimes 1/2 a day was spend shoring up a covered bridge for the heavy trucks


inexperienced drivers too hard on the equipment, poor designs for cross country travel on poor roads

the Militor 4x4 was the hero of he expedition .... often towing 2-4 other trucks all linked together

 

[RatPatrol]

I think even in the high tech military forces of Traveller, the bayonet will still be issued to infantry and marines

a good knife is never out of fashion .....

 

[RatPatrol]

The only blade weapon I ever used was a self purchased Fairbairn–Sykes fighting knife. (Against Regulations but handy on rare occasion.) Gigged several times for "being out of uniform." All by REMFs

Ah yes Intelligence in the military .

sometime in 1988 ... I acquired a Machete during my time in Korea that someone had stuck in the conex, because it had a chip missing from the blade ..

so being he industrious fellow I am, I cut up an MRE carton to make a scabbard, applied several layers of 100 mph tape .... applied 30 wt to the blade because it like to rust, and attached it to the back strap of my LCE ala conan the barbarian


the CO never gave me an Order to remove the tool, but he did comment on its presence a couple of times

 

[HG_B]

In 1900's there was a push to 'Pave America'

most roads in the interior or 10 miles outside a major city quickly turned to dirt,

Yep, covered in Article I, Section 8, Clause 7. The Founding Fathers knew their stuff.

 

[aramis]

In 1900's there was a push to 'Pave America'

most roads in the interior or 10 miles outside a major city quickly turned to dirt, some better maintained then others this is in the days of the foundation of the Lincoln Highway ..... it was laid out, but not paved yet.

anyhow, in 1919 a transcontinental trip was planed, one or more of each popular truck of the time was taken and off they went.
[snip]
it took 56 days .... some days they averaged 15 mph some days 10 ... depending on breakdowns and obstacles .... sometimes 1/2 a day was spend shoring up a covered bridge for the heavy trucks


inexperienced drivers too hard on the equipment, poor designs for cross country travel on poor roads

the Militor 4x4 was the hero of he expedition .... often towing 2-4 other trucks all linked together

Keep in mind also that many of those vehicles had top road speeds under 30 miles per hour.

Since they were convoying, that limits them to the top speed of the slowest vehicle. Which may have been as low as 25 MPH.

Yeah, the roads were bad. But so also were the vehicles on them. And most were still using thin-tire designs... very high ground pressure.

 

[Timerover51]

For the airship guys, I found this movie on archives.org of US Navy Blimp construction and handling. Interesting.

https://archive.org/details/NPC-16050

And that movie gives a link to the "Airships" subject on archives.org, where I found the following.

https://archive.org/details/airplanesairship00tuck

Edit Note: More airship video from archives.org

https://archive.org/details/NPC-1001b

https://archive.org/details/NPC-1832

And some really good footage of a Blimp landing.

https://archive.org/details/NPC-1831

For more information, see this subject.

https://archive.org/search.php?query=blimp AND subject:"Dirigibles"

 

[Timerover51]

Keep in mind also that many of those vehicles had top road speeds under 30 miles per hour.

Since they were convoying, that limits them to the top speed of the slowest vehicle. Which may have been as low as 25 MPH.

Yeah, the roads were bad. But so also were the vehicles on them. And most were still using thin-tire designs... very high ground pressure.

For anyone who wants an idea of what the vehicles looked like back then. I would suggest the following be checked out. In the first one, you have to wait a while to get to the trucks.

https://archive.org/details/WorldWarIFilms

And this one gives some nice footage of the early tanks.

https://archive.org/details/ASC-139

There is quite a bit on motor transport operations in World War One online, and the normal speed is less than 30 miles per hour, and convoys were assumed to travel at about 15 miles per hour. Gas mileage was not that great, and a lot of the vehicles were using chain drive to power the real wheels.

Edit Note: This one does show some trucks towards the end, but I cannot avoid plugging my old Branch, the Quartermaster Corps, as this bakery was turning out about 500,000 loaves of bread a day for the troops in the trenches. An amazing operation.

https://archive.org/details/H-1515

 

[aramis]

For comparison, the 1924 car speed record (at the time, motorcycles weren't counted) was 124.9 MPH.

The Motorcycle record was (from 1907) 136.27, held by Glenn Curtiss (of Curtis aviation, and the designer of the JN-4 Jenny...), until 1924, when people started beating it again.

In 1913, the air speed record was only about 130 MPH... by 1922, Billy Mitchell (later Gen. Billy Mitchell, USAAC), was pushing 360 MPH in a Curtiss R-6. Transport planes were still in the 50 MPH range.

Rail Speeds peaked at about 131 MPH... using steam engines... and 160 on pure electric. Average rail speeds were higher than road car... typically, around 40 MPH. Much of the rail infrastructure is from earlier, and so slow corners means slow rail speeds, even tho', flat out, most of the steam engines could hit 60 MPH... but they couldn't corner safely on the existing track.

 

[GameDaddy]

..anyhow, in 1919 a transcontinental trip was planed, one or more of each popular truck of the time was taken and off they went.

It took 56 days .... some days they averaged 15 mph some days 10 ... depending on breakdowns and obstacles .... sometimes 1/2 a day was spend shoring up a covered bridge for the heavy trucks.

Inexperienced drivers too hard on the equipment, poor designs for cross country travel on poor roads.

The Militor 4x4 was the hero of he expedition .... often towing 2-4 other trucks all linked together

During prohibition my Grandfather said he made a road trip out to Georgia from Colorado in a Ford Model A... He bought Two kegs of moonshine, stopped everywhere and started parties and sold one of the kegs on his way back during the trip, then used the other keg for a family wedding. The whole round trip took about three months and he said the proceeds from this kept him in spending cash for almost a year after...

 

[Timerover51]

In 1900's there was a push to 'Pave America'

most roads in the interior or 10 miles outside a major city quickly turned to dirt, some better maintained then others this is in the days of the foundation of the Lincoln Highway ..... it was laid out, but not paved yet.

anyhow, in 1919 a transcontinental trip was planed, one or more of each popular truck of the time was taken and off they went.

http://www.fhwa.dot.gov/infrastructure/convoy.cfm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1919_Motor_Transport_Corps_convoy

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transcontinental_Motor_Convoy

it took 56 days .... some days they averaged 15 mph some days 10 ... depending on breakdowns and obstacles .... sometimes 1/2 a day was spend shoring up a covered bridge for the heavy trucks

inexperienced drivers too hard on the equipment, poor designs for cross country travel on poor roads

the Militor 4x4 was the hero of he expedition .... often towing 2-4 other trucks all linked together

As the subject has come up, I will supply the following information.

Gas and Oil consumption of trucks in World War One.

Packard 1.5 ton: 5 miles per gallon of gasoline, 120 miles per gallon of oil.
Packard 3 ton: 4 miles per gallon of gasoline, 80 miles per gallon of oil.
Peerless 3 ton: 3.5 miles per gallon of gasoline, 70 miles per gallon of oil.
Riker 3 ton: 3.6 miles per gallon of gasoline, 80 miles per gallon of oil.
Standard Class “B”: 3.7 miles per gallon of gasoline, 70 miles per gallon of oil.

Note, these were NOT Diesel trucks, that is lubrication oil that they are using up. Maybe burning up would be more accurate.

The information comes from the following source.

Provisional Regulations for Operation and Training of Division Trains, prepared by the War Plans Division, October 1918 (This is the US Army).

The following was recommended after EACH RUN.

(3) After each run (to be done as soon as truck returns from run). ;
(a) Fill up gasoline tanks (including reserve supply), oil, lanterns, headlights ami generators.
(b) Drain carburetors (much water and other impurities are often found in gasoline). In freezing weather drain radiators.
(c) Remove mud and dirt from places in immediate proximity to joints and moving parts, such as reach rod joints, spring shackles, distance rod hangers or joints, torsion rod joints and springs.
(d) After removing dirt, turn down grease cups at all places one turn.
(e) Examine and tighten all loose nuts, screws, etc., including those of the woodwork.
(f) Wash entire truck, if possible.

Emphasis added, and also remember that much of the truck body was actually made of wood, not metal.

 

[Timerover51]

Keep in mind also that many of those vehicles had top road speeds under 30 miles per hour.

Since they were convoying, that limits them to the top speed of the slowest vehicle. Which may have been as low as 25 MPH.

Yeah, the roads were bad. But so also were the vehicles on them. And most were still using thin-tire designs... very high ground pressure.

Actually, as these were military trucks, they probably had engine governors on, based on the above quoted source, and also many of them had SOLID rubber tires.

See that all motor governors are properly regulated. Seal these governors and keep the sealing tool in your personal possession. Allow no seal to be broken without your express authority and severely punish any man who tampers with the seal. The practice of opening governors is a common one and very hard to stop, but it is very destructive to motors by permitting them to run at excessive speeds.

The guarantee speed of 16 miles per hour for 1.5-ton trucks and 12 miles for 3-ton trucks will be possible only under most exceptional circumstances.

 

[BlackBat242]

the Militor 4x4 was the hero of he expedition .... often towing 2-4 other trucks all linked together

Well, it was designed for the US Army during WW1 to to artillery pieces.

http://www.offroadvehicle.ru/AZBUCAR/Holmes/Militor%204x4%20Truck%201918%20A%20Mroz%20247%20page.jpg

http://hmvf.co.uk/forumvb/showthread.php?17386-Have-Any-Militors-Survived&

The Militor 4x4 was thoroughly tested by the Ordnance Department at Hook Mountain in August of 1918 but never went into mass production before the war ended. The 1918 Militor was the culmination of efforts by the Society of Automotive Engineers and the Ordnance Department after the U.S. military had used several different makes of 4 x 4 trucks.

The Ordnance Department tested the standardized Militor truck in Nyack, New York, by towing a Nash Quad and a Renault truck uphill at Hook Mountain.

There is evidence that as many as 75 were built, but some dispute that. The numbers I have seen range from 5-75, but I tend to think it's at the higher end, having seen a report that indicated a fairly large number (around 20) were used in some USA maneuvers in the '20s.

http://plowshareforge.blogspot.com/2014/02/militor.html

 

[JimMarn]

I can vouch for water in the gasoline in the early 1950s. My grandfather's pickup truck had a small glass bottle arrangement in the gas line. Every day he would lift the hood covering the engine, and look at the small glass bottle. If it had water in it, he unscrewed the clamp, poured the water out, put the bottle and clamp back. Then started the engine.

Sometimes he left the hood up, and watched the glass bottle to see if any water showed up. If not, he closed the hood of the truck and drove to work.

If water showed up too often, he avoided that gas station and went to a different one.

 

[Xerxeskingofking]

its still a potential problem in some cases today. I know that British army diesel fuelled generators come with small clear plastic tube and a bleed off valve to remove any water that gets in, but I think this may be due to the generators being refuelled by hand, with jerry cans.

 

[Timerover51]

With respect to the number of Militor trucks built, the following comes from THE ARMIES OF INDUSTRY, Volume 2, by Benedict Crowell, which is a somewhat expanded account of his report on American munition production in World War One, that appeared in 1921 from Yale University Press.

The Ordnance Department also created the design of a four-wheel-drive Class T truck, calling the vehicle the "Militor," and built five of them experimentally. Two of these trucks journeyed from Washington to San Francisco in the Transcontinental Convoys of 1919 and 1920, successfully
serving as tractors in the rough going. After the armistice the Army bought seventy-five Militor trucks for the artillery.

Based on this, it would appear that 80 were built. If I get to DC and the National Archives in the near future, I will have to do some research on this.

its still a potential problem in some cases today. I know that British army diesel fuelled generators come with small clear plastic tube and a bleed off valve to remove any water that gets in, but I think this may be due to the generators being refuelled by hand, with jerry cans.

Actually it is a problem that occurs regularly. When I was attending the Fort Lee Quartermaster Officer's Basic Class, during the Petroleum sub-course, we had to learn how to gauge the amount of water in above-ground storage tanks. We used a steel plummet attached to a flexible steel tape, and coated it with a water-detecting paste, which turned a bright blue from white in the presence of water. All storage tanks, be they above ground or below ground, will accumulate water in the course of time because of condensation within the tank. As the water is heavier than gasoline/Diesel/Jet fuel, it will sink to the bottom of the tank, and normally does not represent a problem unless too much accumulates and then gets stirred up with the fuel from the tank it pumped out. If the gauging showed too much water in the tank, then a pump was very carefully lowered into the tank, and the water was pumped out until the pump was only pumping clear fuel. A far amount of sludge came out too.

We have had a couple of friends get caught by gas stations that did not check the water level sufficiently, and who ended up with major problems because of water in the gas. One station near me got caught that way a few years ago, and the Illinois Department of Agriculture (in charge of accurate pump measurement) and the Illinois EPA landed on the owner pretty good. He was fined for watered gas, had to pay for some engine overhauls of customers, and because of the water level in one tank, the EPA required that he replace the tank. Water causes corrosion inside of a storage tank. He then had to pay for the next year or so to have the state come out and check the water level in the tanks.

 

[Timerover51]

As gasoline has come up, I found the following costs of gasoline in World War 1 in America's Munitions by Crowell. From the Bureau of Labor Statistics, the inflation adjustment from 1918 to 2014 is 15.75, so all prices should be multiplied by 15.75 to convert to current dollars. The gasoline in World War 1 was NOT CHEAP.

The gasoline purchases were heaviest of all, Army motor trucks and cars in the United States requiring 484,282 barrels of it, worth $5,448,570, in the nine months between April 1 and December 31, 1918.

This equals $11.25 per barrel, or in 2014 Dollars, $177.19 per barrel.

The American Army motor trucks and cars with the American Expeditionary Forces were supplied with 703,104 barrels, worth $10,104,437, in the same period.

This equates to $14.37 per barrel, or in 2014 Dollars, $226.33 per barrel.

For Army airplanes in the United States during the same months there were purchased 306,082 barrels of special aviation gasoline, at a cost of $3,906,650,

This equates to $12.76 per barrel, or in 2014 Dollars, $200.97 per barrel.

and for the planes in France 146,780 barrels, worth $2,748,839.

This equates to $18.73 per barrel, or in 2014 Dollars, $295.00 per barrel.

One further comment, the regular gasoline that is now used is 87 octane. In World War 2, 87 octane fuel was Aviation Gas, with standard Mogas running at 70 octane, and 80 octane being used in training aircraft and some of the tank engines adapted from aircraft engines that the US used in tanks. The World War 1 fuel probably topped out at about 70 octane for Aviation fuel, and 60 octane for motor fuel. Put those in a modern car engine and you will blow the engine up.

For information as to the current spot price for petroleum fuels, see the following.

http://www.eia.gov/dnav/pet/pet_pri_spt_s1_w.htm

 

[BlackBat242]

The sources I have seen say that the 87 octane fuel was only used for fighters in European nations (Japan used 87 to 92 CFR-M*) - Britain transitioned to 100 octane (actually 100/130**) for its fighters the summer of 1940, and with its Merlin-engined bombers (especially Mosquitos) not long after that.

The USAAF started out using 87 octane in the ETO (base grade, it was supposed to be hand-mixed with additives for higher octane, but thus was not consistent, leading to the famous P-38 engine troubles), but by late 1943 was using 100/130 there (it had been using factory-pre-mixed 100/130 from the start in the Aleutians and Pacific theatres).


From 1943 to mid-1944 both the British and the US were investigating 100/150 aviation fuel, and eventually adopted this as 44-1 Fuel, as discussed here: http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/150grade/150-grade-fuel.html


Apparently, training, observation, cargo, and early bomber aircraft also used 87 octane in both British and US service, but later bombers used 100/130.


* Anyone interested to explore this topic more deeply can find a 488 page USSBS report here -

http://www.fischer-tropsch.org/

[1] Select "Government Reports" under the "Primary Documents" section.

[2] Select the document entitled "U. S. Naval Technical Mission to Japan".

[3] Scroll down the Table of Contents to Section JM200K and select reference X-38(N2) Japanese Fuels and Lubricants - Article 2, "Naval Research on Aviation Gasoline".


** Many grades of avgas are identified by two numbers associated with its Motor Octane Number (MON).[7] The first number indicates the octane rating of the fuel tested to "aviation lean" standards, which is similar to the anti-knock index or "pump rating" given to automotive gasoline in the US. The second number indicates the octane rating of the fuel tested to the "aviation rich" standard, which tries to simulate a supercharged condition with a rich mixture, elevated temperatures, and a high manifold pressure. For example, 100/130 avgas has an octane rating of 100 at the lean settings usually used for cruising and 130 at the rich settings used for take-off and other full-power conditions.

 

[HG_B]

The sources I have seen say that the 87 octane fuel was only used for fighters in European nations (Japan used 87 to 92 CFR-M*) - Britain transitioned to 100 octane (actually 100/130**) for its fighters the summer of 1940, and with its Merlin-engined bombers (especially Mosquitos) not long after that.

The USAAF started out using 87 octane in the ETO

FDR started supplying Britain with 100 grade in '40 to give them an edge over the German planes The USAAF used the same when it went to Britain. (you can read it in the Nation Archives FDR war time papers.)