Some Interesting Military Data

[Timerover51]

On the 16th October 1879, the office of the Quartermaster-General in India, headquartered at Simla, reported the following number of animals available for use by "moveable columns".

Elephants = 1,045
Camels = 9,227
Bullocks = 2,080
Mules = 3,357

The source of the information is MILITARY TRANSPORT, by LIEUT.-COL. GEORGE ARMAND FURSE, Deputy Assistant Quartermaster-General, published by Her Majesty's Stationary Office in 1882.

Among other interesting comments in the volume are the views of the writer that the American "aparejo" mule pack saddle was the best saddle available for packing on a mule. and that the American Army Wagon and American buck-wagon were superior to the Royal Army General Service Wagon. I can imagine that those comments where not welcomed by the British government in what amounted to the British Army manual for military transport.

 

[BlackBat242]

Well, the US Army had, by the late 1870s, extensive experience on long-range/no-road transport, thanks to the area of the American West.

Its no surprise they had paid attention to developing the best wagons & pack saddles they could.

 

[Timerover51]

Well, the US Army had, by the late 1870s, extensive experience on long-range/no-road transport, thanks to the area of the American West.

Its no surprise they had paid attention to developing the best wagons & pack saddles they could.

Yes, I know that, but the interesting thing is for a British officer to admit it.

There is an interesting book online at archive.org of a lecture given by the US Army's leading packer, and author of the 1917 Manual for Pack Transportation. It is a fun read, as well as enlightening.

Gentlemen, you have a rare treat in store for you to-night. We have in the United States a man who perhaps knows more about pack transportation than any other man in tlie world. He has had a unique career—a wonderful career—and I take pleasure in introducing to you Mr. H. W. Daly.

https://archive.org/details/packtransportati00daly

 

[JimMarn]

Yes, I know that, but the interesting thing is for a British officer to admit it.

There is an interesting book online at archive.org of a lecture given by the US Army's leading packer, and author of the 1917 Manual for Pack Transportation. It is a fun read, as well as enlightening.



https://archive.org/details/packtransportati00daly

Yes, that British officer probably upset his superiors with that. Pack transport pdf downloaded. Thanks !

 

[aramis]

Well, the US Army had, by the late 1870s, extensive experience on long-range/no-road transport, thanks to the area of the American West.

Its no surprise they had paid attention to developing the best wagons & pack saddles they could.

A 1940's era Cavalryman's Ruck isn't great for marching, but it's great on horseback or motorcycle. (I've had one. Hiked Resurrection pass with it... 37.4 miles. Mostly uphill. Seriously - Juneau falls end, which was our exit, is VERY steep, and only about 2 miles.)

 

[maksimsmelchak]

A 1940's era Cavalryman's Ruck isn't great for marching, but it's great on horseback or motorcycle. (I've had one. Hiked Resurrection pass with it... 37.4 miles. Mostly uphill. Seriously - Juneau falls end, which was our exit, is VERY steep, and only about 2 miles.)

Aramis,

*** Have you ever hiked Yosemite Half Dome? ***

Shalom,
Maksim-Smelchak.

 

[aramis]

Aramis,

*** Have you ever hiked Yosemite Half Dome? ***

Shalom,
Maksim-Smelchak.

My only hiking outside Alaska was on Ft. Dix.

 

[Dagrill]

Yes, I know that, but the interesting thing is for a British officer to admit it.

https://archive.org/details/packtransportati00daly

I would have to disagree, British officers always want the best equipment and in the old days would have purchased it from their private means. The same for Naval officers, if you can stand the smell I would recommend reading the ADM 95 series reports on sailing qualities of French and Spanish captured ships.

(You might be correct on the government not have liking them though, they reek as if they have been stored in the bilges, but in fairness even former civilian penny pinching bureaucrat types like myself get overruled by our political masters occasionally to use a more modern case the purchase of Trident).

Kind Regards

David

 

[Dagrill]

The legionary is also holding a very large shield and the unit is in a fairly tight formation, so not that much room to swing a cat.

Giving them a local numerical superiority against the more dispersed attackers as well

Kind Regards

David

 

[Dagrill]

I remember reading one of Ballatine's War book series about WW2, Company Comander, that the British regiment would get in trouble for requesting an extra pair of boots. At the same a U.S. Regimental commander was expected to ask for extra gear; like weapons, grenades, 60mm morter rounds, extra ammo, etc.

Hmm, it's probably worth remembering the British Infantry Regiment was original a business contract, whilst researching one of my ancestors in the 26th Foot I studied the muster books. It is also an account book with a spend of £1,300 in one month, I would have attached a jpg of the picture I took of one page, but can't work out how to.

Kind regards

David

 

[Timerover51]

I would have to disagree, British officers always want the best equipment and in the old days would have purchased it from their private means. The same for Naval officers, if you can stand the smell I would recommend reading the ADM 95 series reports on sailing qualities of French and Spanish captured ships.

(You might be correct on the government not have liking them though, they reek as if they have been stored in the bilges, but in fairness even former civilian penny pinching bureaucrat types like myself get overruled by our political masters occasionally to use a more modern case the purchase of Trident).

Kind Regards

David

Greetings, David. If you can find a copy of Howard Chapelle's History of the American Sailing Navy, there is plenty of data in there on how the British painstakingly took the lines off of every American ship or privateer that they captured, which was not a lot, to see how the American ships sailed so much better than the English. While I have not delved into the ADM papers, I have read enough people who have to know that the British were not happy about being outsailed by the French and Spanish on a regular basis. There are also some fairly caustic comments on British warships in Archibald's The Wooden Fighting Ship in the Royal Navy. Then there is the case of World War 1 ships being built to fit the docks rather than building wider docks for better ships.

The US Navy had the problem of making sure all of its ships would fit through the Panama Canal, with did limit the beam of the Iowa-class ships.

As for the British officers buying their own equipment, I have some memoirs of British officers detailing what kit to buy for a given area.

The British government has a long history of being penny-wise and pound-foolish.

Edit Note: If you are interested in the wooden fighting ships, you might want to check out Robert Albion's Forests and Sea Power, about supplying shipbuilding wood to the Royal Navy. Quite an interesting read, and available at archive.org.

https://archive.org/details/ForestsAndSeaPower

The Project Gutenberg site also has the Pepys Diaries for download, as does archive.org. The problem with the Project Gutenberg download is that you do have input mistakes and some odd characters appear. Either way, it also makes for interesting reading, especially for those who are interested in the finer points of buying influence with bureaucrats.

 

[JimMarn]

Hmm, it's probably worth remembering the British Infantry Regiment was original a business contract, whilst researching one of my ancestors in the 26th Foot I studied the muster books. It is also an account book with a spend of £1,300 in one month, I would have attached a jpg of the picture I took of one page, but can't work out how to.

Kind regards

David

Yes, many regiments were private organizations created by the highest ranking officer.

I think it was Robert Heinlein, but could have been another 1940s author who got called up during that time ( he was medicaled out in the 1930s), he mention in his bigraphy that he worked with the Joint Chiefs. If it was felt that 100 trucks were necessary for something, like an invasion of Axis held territory, they sent double that number. In some instances, like weapons, they sent ten times as much as it was felt was needed.

From reading the Ballantine War Books, I realized the British Military leadership, Chief of Staff equivalent, tried to get by on a shoe string.

 

[Condottiere]

There's a reason there's a muster, so that commanding officers don't collect paychecks for phantom privates.

Since a good proportion of British officers could afford to buy their commissions, and were second sons, they could afford to equip themselves.

As regards French prize ships, their designs may have been good, but their building materials sucked, and most were scrapped.

 

[Dagrill]

Greetings, David. If you can find a copy of Howard Chapelle's History of the American Sailing Navy, there is plenty of data in there on how the British painstakingly took the lines off of every American ship or privateer that they captured, which was not a lot, to see how the American ships sailed so much better than the English. While I have not delved into the ADM papers, I have read enough people who have to know that the British were not happy about being outsailed by the French and Spanish on a regular basis. There are also some fairly caustic comments on British warships in Archibald's The Wooden Fighting Ship in the Royal Navy. Then there is the case of World War 1 ships being built to fit the docks rather than building wider docks for better ships.

Edit Note: If you are interested in the wooden fighting ships, you might want to check out Robert Albion's Forests and Sea Power, about supplying shipbuilding wood to the Royal Navy. Quite an interesting read, and available at archive.org.

Hi,

Thanks for the suggestions, I have Archibald's book, but I'm not purchasing any books at present as we are in the process of making a long distance move to the SW, (well long distance for the UK anyway) and the book collection weighs a ton (I'm having to give quite a few books to charities).

I'll keep a note of this thread and probably look them up next year.

Kind Regards

David

 

[Timerover51]

Hi,

Thanks for the suggestions, I have Archibald's book, but I'm not purchasing any books at present as we are in the process of making a long distance move to the SW, (well long distance for the UK anyway) and the book collection weighs a ton (I'm having to give quite a few books to charities).

I'll keep a note of this thread and probably look them up next year.

Kind Regards

David

I understand. The last time I moved, my book collection weighed in at about 3,000 pounds and I have been steadily adding to it. In that respect, digital books do make for a lighter collection.

 

[whartung]

Nothing prompts a book purge like a move.

After you spend the day boxing up the books you haven't read in 10 years and then think about moving them out in to the truck, and then in to the new house (upstairs, of course), and then unboxing them so they can lie in wait for the next 10 years.

After a long, hot afternoon of that, when the wife comes in with the "you sure you want to take these with you" line, it doesn't take much to give in and drag them off to the local charity instead.

It doesn't help when you've got, say, the entirety of the OTU et al on a thumb drive no bigger than a 1/2" square.

 

[Timerover51]

Nothing prompts a book purge like a move.

After you spend the day boxing up the books you haven't read in 10 years and then think about moving them out in to the truck, and then in to the new house (upstairs, of course), and then unboxing them so they can lie in wait for the next 10 years.

After a long, hot afternoon of that, when the wife comes in with the "you sure you want to take these with you" line, it doesn't take much to give in and drag them off to the local charity instead.

It doesn't help when you've got, say, the entirety of the OTU et al on a thumb drive no bigger than a 1/2" square.

My Traveller hard covers are not a major factor. My official histories of the US Army in World War 2, the US Marine Corps in World War 2, and the official British history of the Mediterranean and the Middle East, are a factor, along with my Ballatine World War 2 collection, various Jane's copies, and Morison's US Navy in World War 2 are. The all of my other reference books, old atlases, books on war-game design and rules, plus my game rules collection in general. Then there is my collection of US Army Field and Technical manuals.

 

[Dagrill]

Greetings, David. The Project Gutenberg site also has the Pepys Diaries for download, as does archive.org. The problem with the Project Gutenberg download is that you do have input mistakes and some odd characters appear. Either way, it also makes for interesting reading, especially for those who are interested in the finer points of buying influence with bureaucrats.

Thank you for this information, I have just been browsing the project Gutenberg site and the idea of free e-books is fantastic. I've gone off kindle
as you can't print/copy the materiel, I need to check the local copyright laws though.

Kind Regards

David

 

[Timerover51]

The following film covers one of the more creative ways to attack the US during World War 2. As the Japanese Paper Balloon bombs are fairly widely known, I do not have any qualms posting it. The movie was made by the US Navy and is in the public domain.

https://archive.org/details/gov.archives.arc.13084

 

[Timerover51]

The following statement by General George Patton, Jr., who I assume needs no more introduction appears in a report filed by U. S. Army Ground Forces observers to the Commanding General, U. S. Army Ground Forces on 18 February 1943. The statement is made regarding the landings in North Africa in November of 1942.

Had the landing been opposed by Germans. we would never have gotten ashore.

Gen. Patton was the commander of the Western Task Force which landed in French Morocco, with the objective of taking the port of Casablanca.