Some Interesting Military Data

[Condottiere]

Interesting question would be if you can wash, rinse, repeat.

The Germans rotated their troops from the Eastern Front, into hospitable France.

 

[whartung]

For each 2 week period spent continuously in combat their tolerance to it goes down by 1. This means that somewhere between 90 and 140 days in combat and you're finished. You've had all you can take and you become a mental casualty.
If the combat is particularly intense and / or in poor conditions the rate of decline increases by 2 or 3 times. At worst, under continuous shelling, in miserable conditions like cold, wet, and such, troops start falling apart in as little a couple of weeks.

I guess you need to define "in combat".

I don't have a reference, but it was noted that, for example, Vietnam soldiers saw a lot more combat than, say, WWII soldiers. Arguably simply because of the operations tempo and style. With better transportation, it was easier to get troops in and out of engagements. Where as, perhaps, in WWII, troops simply spent most of the their time traveling to the front rather than fighting on it.

For example, it's probably fair to say that the troops in the Bastogne were "in combat" for much of the engagement, but what about the troops rushing to support them. Were they "in combat" during the entire trip (which no doubt had to be a pretty rushed, 24/7 affair), or just when they finally showed up and started trading fire with the Germans?

 

[Condottiere]

In previous wars, you try to rest the troops the night before an engagement.
The Germans used to issue amphetamines, though to me this seems anecdotal.

 

[JimMarn]

In previous wars, you try to rest the troops the night before an engagement.
The Germans used to issue amphetamines, though to me this seems anecdotal.

American Heros Channel had an hour long documentary on this. There was evidently a pill given to German Eastern Front forces that contained a number of drugs to keep them going.

 

[JimMarn]

I guess you need to define "in combat".

I don't have a reference, but it was noted that, for example, Vietnam soldiers saw a lot more combat than, say, WWII soldiers. Arguably simply because of the operations tempo and style. With better transportation, it was easier to get troops in and out of engagements. Where as, perhaps, in WWII, troops simply spent most of the their time traveling to the front rather than fighting on it.

For example, it's probably fair to say that the troops in the Bastogne were "in combat" for much of the engagement, but what about the troops rushing to support them. Were they "in combat" during the entire trip (which no doubt had to be a pretty rushed, 24/7 affair), or just when they finally showed up and started trading fire with the Germans?

Patton's forces coming in from the south and the US forces under a British General coming in from the North and west were under fire from German forces trying to block them from getting to Bastogne mopst of the way. Probably more so in the noirth and west as that was the direction to Antwerp and the River Meuse.

 

[whulorigan]

American Heros Channel had an hour long documentary on this. There was evidently a pill given to German Eastern Front forces that contained a number of drugs to keep them going.

The drug was sold under the brand-name Pervitin. It was sold in Germany "over-the-counter" as a pick-me-up drug. A government issued version was issued to all Wehrmacht soldiers as part of their standard kit.

Its modern designation is Crystal-Meth.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methamphetamine#History.2C_society.2C_and_culture

That is why the soldiers of the Blitzkrieg could just keep going and going . . .

 

[Condottiere]

Fear and loathing in Stalingrad.

 

[JimMarn]

I spotted this on a usenet newsgroup.

When you go to the page, click on the 'online' link. That takes you to a page where you can read it online or download a pdf. I didn't see a way to download the catalog.

The first one is about 12 megs, the second is 21 megs, and the third is about 31 megs.

quote:

The Signal Corps history in WW II is covered extensively in the Army's
Green Book series in three illustrated volumes. The technology ranges
from carrier pigeons to radar. Photography and filmmaking are covered
as well.

These books may be downloaded free of charge from the Center for
Military History, as follows: (The files are large and download slowly.)

to Dec. 1941:
http://www.history.army.mil/catalog/pubs/10/10-16.html

1941-1943:
http://www.history.army.mil/catalog/pubs/10/10-17.html

1943-1945:
http://www.history.army.mil/catalog/pubs/10/10-18.html

Complete publication directory (over 600 listings):
http://www.history.army.mil/catalog/index.html


Hard copies may be found in large libraries, and some may be
purchased from the Center for Military History.

end quote.

 

[Timerover51]

You can also find a lot of hard copies online for sale at abehbooks.com. The entire US Army Official History of World War 2 can be downloaded from the Center for Military History.

http://www.history.army.mil/html/bookshelves/collect/usaww2.html

You can also get the official Korean War histories and the Vietnam histories from the Center for Military History.

 

[kilemall]

Fear and loathing in Stalingrad.

There is one fantastic novel waiting to be written!

 

[Timerover51]

There is one fantastic novel waiting to be written!

The problem would be is that it is very unlikely that anyone who actually fought there is available to help write it.

I am also not sure if the fighting at Stalingrad was any nastier than the fighting at Iwo Jima, Okinawa, Guadalcanal, or the Buna area of New Guinea. Burma was also not particularly nice to fight in. Those are my opinions, however.

 

[kilemall]

The problem would be is that it is very unlikely that anyone who actually fought there is available to help write it.

I am also not sure if the fighting at Stalingrad was any nastier than the fighting at Iwo Jima, Okinawa, Guadalcanal, or the Buna area of New Guinea. Burma was also not particularly nice to fight in. Those are my opinions, however.

Distant relative at Okinawa. He would not talk about it.

Accurate battle representation would not be the point of a surrealist gonzo war novel, more like Heller meets Vonnegut on LSD.

 

[Ulsyus]

I am also not sure if the fighting at Stalingrad was any nastier than the fighting at Iwo Jima, Okinawa, Guadalcanal, or the Buna area of New Guinea. Burma was also not particularly nice to fight in. Those are my opinions, however.

Sometimes the differences are just in scale. Fighting becomes a very personal thing. We tend to view it from a distance when reading histories, even very very well written ones. Try Max Hastings' "Korea" for a really excellent version. You could have added Dien Bien Phu or the Uzbin Valley ambush for horrendous situations soldiers have found themselves sent into.

For the guy or gal caught out in the field, time concertinas depending on whether there's a kinetic outcome being effected or not. It seems to me that small teams matter, and fighting can be something done by just a small group of people, even if surrounded by lots of other small groups of people.

 

[mike wightman]

At Stalingrad Commissars machine gunned their own peasant levy to persuade them to move forward and fight.

Said peasant levy were not even armed - they were told to pick guns off the corpses they would encounter.

 

[aramis]

At Stalingrad Commissars machine gunned their own peasant levy to persuade them to move forward and fight.

Said peasant levy were not even armed - they were told to pick guns off the corpses they would encounter.

According to Paul Avrich (in a 1995 or so paper), those were NOT "Peasant Levy" but normal Russian Army conscripts. The USSR only had 1 weapon per 8 soldiers... almost all troops trained with broomsticks instead of real rifles..

 

[Ulsyus]

According to Paul Avrich (in a 1995 or so paper), those were NOT "Peasant Levy" but normal Russian Army conscripts. The USSR only had 1 weapon per 8 soldiers... almost all troops trained with broomsticks instead of real rifles..

Not that I can remember the source right now (and not having access to my books being overseas at the moment) but wasn't that concept based on the mass retreats of the Soviets when reeling from the success of Barbarossa in 1941? A similar thing happened to the US army in 1950 when troops fled from the North Koreans advancing south down the peninsula: they threw away everything that could slow them down.

That said, I also recall reading (going back many years now) when doing one essay how Soviet production lagged while the factories were being shipped east of the Ural and Allied deliveries weren't covering the gap of their needs. At that point it would be feasible that they'd run short.

 

[Axe]

Distant relative at Okinawa. He would not talk about it.

Accurate battle representation would not be the point of a surrealist gonzo war novel, more like Heller meets Vonnegut on LSD.

Circa 1982, during high school and not long before a stay at Camp Pendleton, I read With the Old Breed by Eugene Sledge. This book still comes to mind from time to time. Really enjoyed it.

There are more than a few vets on these boards. Some vets talk, some don't.

The key to getting my grandfather (USA) to talk about WWII was to get him in the same room with his brothers (USN and Special), and away from others. Grandpa talked mostly about the war from his and his squad's point of view. He didn't talk much about "the 7th Army did this" and "the 5th Panzer Division did that", he talked about personal things. One was how his squad came upon an abandoned rail car full of down (feathers). They were so tired, they didn't care that Germans were a stones throw away. They jumped on top and sank in the down as they slept.

Related to European Theater vs Pacific Theater, here is a personal experience about the relationship between the two theaters Grandpa and his brothers laughed about when they got together.

Grandpa was regular army, enlisting when he was about to turn 15 (not many computer data bases to check in the 1930's, and he never admitted to his correct birth year). He saw a great deal of battle and received a commission. He fought in North Africa, went up into Italy, was shipped to England, then, set foot in France and headed for Berlin. His squad liberated POW camps, work camps, etc... Not long before the Russians entered Berlin, and immediately after he received a minor wound from a GSW, his unit was sent back to its hometown, for two weeks, to gather more troops and supplies before heading to Japan. While home he met his brother at a bar. He hadn't seen his brother in six years. Grandpa told his brother he was scared to go to Japan. He said he could deal with blizzards, forging cold rivers, and could *take care of* Krauts all day long, but Bonsais and Samurai swords scared him to death. His brother kept trying to reassure him that everything was going to be ok. His brother, a civilian, had no standing in my grandfather's eyes. They parted. What his brother couldn't tell him was he (the brother) was the head machinist for the Manhattan Project (TN). After dealing with the extraction of the Uranium, he continued working on the project. The brother was only able to steal two days to come home, during which time he had the chance meeting with my grandfather at the bar. A few days after the meeting at the bar, the brother was heading to the Pacific Theater with the bombs. The bombs were deployed before Grandpa got near Japan, but he still had to do some "clean up and policing", as he called it.

Anyway, even with all the battle my grandfather saw in Europe and Africa, the reputation of the Pacific Theater affected Grandpa.

Grandpa retired as a Major and was a successful business man.

 

[aramis]

Not that I can remember the source right now (and not having access to my books being overseas at the moment) but wasn't that concept based on the mass retreats of the Soviets when reeling from the success of Barbarossa in 1941? A similar thing happened to the US army in 1950 when troops fled from the North Koreans advancing south down the peninsula: they threw away everything that could slow them down.

That said, I also recall reading (going back many years now) when doing one essay how Soviet production lagged while the factories were being shipped east of the Ural and Allied deliveries weren't covering the gap of their needs. At that point it would be feasible that they'd run short.

Avrich's paper was based upon his having gained access to Kreml records thanks to Glasnost...

 

[JimMarn]

While I have never been in combat, some of my realtives have.

My parents met after WW2. Mom woked at the USO in a small town in Texas. He, well, he spent most of the war a an AXIS POW.

He had been sent to the Phillipines as part of an American unit, New Mexico National Guard that had scored the highest in the War Games held in Louisiana. Yes, the same War Games Patton was at. My dad was in the anti-aircraft units assigned to protected the Infantry. He was on Bataan, and later on got out to Corregidor Island. Mom told me never talked about how he got out there. I told her, he never mentioned it, that they were straffed and there are sharks in Manila Bay. They had corroded ammo. I think it was 37mm. I only last year found a book about those battles that gave details. About 1 in 9 or fewer rounds left the barrel, and some of those the fuses malfunctioned.

When ever you see an old B&W war movie about the Pacific, that says 'this was the worst camp in the PhHillipines' etc. His unit, the ones left after Corregidor surrendered in 1942, were sent to.

About 5 or so years ago, I think I found his pow records. In January and February of 1945, his unit was sent to the Japanese Home Islands and put to work in a copper mine west of the mountains west of Tokyo.

They worked in the mine and the smelter. No safety gear... Of course, no Japanese had safety gear either. So he apparently got copper fumes into his lungs. Mom said he would just be talking and then snap and attack someone. Until I found out about this possible metal poisoning, I thought it was his nightmares about the camps.

Mom told me, she was in high school during WW2, and a bobby soxer who adored Frank Sinatra, she would get requests from the guys who came into play ping pong, checkers, or chess, to write to them after they left the nearby base. Not love letters, they just wanted to know things like; have the flowers come in, what was showing at the movie theater, what was the latest radio show about, is the milk there good, things like that.

She told me some of the letters, particularly in the early part of the war, would come back marked 'Deceased. Return to Sender' with that big stamped hand with the index finger pointing back to the return address. According to her, they stopped doing that and just returned them. Sometimes a guy from that unit would come by and tell her the guy she was writing to was dead, or missing, or had a new girl friend. She told it didn't matter, she was just writting about what it was like in a small town. To give them something ewlse to think about than being shot at. She told me she skipped lunch sometimes, to afford the 3 cent postcards and the 5 cent first class letters to send these messages of hope. She never old my siblings and I how many she wrote.

They met after the war. He game me some Japanese Phillipinew Occupation Money and some Australian Money. Coins and bills. And I think one or two Chinese money with Chang Kai Check (sp) on it. No idea were that money is now.

Due to his flash backs, etc. they divorced when I was 3 or 4 years old. Both remarried. Due to Ancestry DNA test, I found his relatives... his son by his second marraige wont return my contact attempts. Maybe dad told his second son we were crazy. Mom told me he was crazy.

Anyway, she told me the ones she was told were Mising in Action, she worried the most about. Hoping they had made it out okay. The other veterans and I know that probably didn't happen.

My second dad, yup, met him at the USO to, same small town. I beat him at ping pong... He is still alive, mom and my first dad died years ago.

My second dad was in the Army, and got out a few times, had some injuries inbetween. After he went back in, Viet Nam got hotter and he was told he was being sent in as Infantry. His injuries excempted him from combat, but they were going to sent him anyway.

He converted over to the SeaBees. Heavy equipment operator. He told us in a letter the first night in Viet Nam they were placed between a river and some Marines. Onlt their bull dozers were unpacked, guns and ammo the next day. They were attacked that night. The SeaBees attacked using bulldozers and road making gear. He said aftrer a few minutes Marines started showing up and got on the dozers with the Seabees, they repulsed the attack. Apparently similar to that movies where John Wayne was a SeaBee. Its possible dad was joking, but maybe not.

Only thing that has happened to me was a hurricane brushed past our ship on the way back to the states fromr the Med ( we almost capsized), a hang fire on the forward gun mount 5"/54, and a hangfire on the anti-aircraft missle launcher aft.

 

[Ulsyus]

Avrich's paper was based upon his having gained access to Kreml records thanks to Glasnost...

The allied shipments to Russia enabled them to focus industry early on a few things that were needed most, and I was led to believe that they ended up with significant stockpiles of small arms towards the end of the war.

Did the paper mention at what point that ratio changed, when they all became armed?