Some Interesting Military Data

[BackworldTraveller]

giving someone a gun whose loyalty can't be taken for granted, and point them to the frontline, is a tad risky.

But not an unusual position. See Russia 1941, Iraq 1980s. One of the great things about armies is that they tend to make those in the lower echelons loyal to their commanders unless the commanders are totally incompetent. The risky bit is putting disloyal commanders in place. And politicians have managed to make some spectacularly loyal commanders very disloyal through time.

 

[Epee]

The Chinese Intervention in the Korean Conflict was similar. The units sent across the border were expected to be slaughtered by the UN forces while still overwhelming them. The units selected were those who had not fought for the Red Chinese in the Civil War yet had not evacuated to Taiwan; of doubtful loyalty.

This situation can be ruthlessly useful in situations where the opponent is not seen by the less-loyal as liberators, hope of rapprochement with the existing powers is held out as a reward for good performance, and/or the families of the less-loyal are hostage to their behavior.

 

[BackworldTraveller]

The Chinese Intervention in the Korean Conflict was similar. The units sent across the border were expected to be slaughtered by the UN forces while still overwhelming them. The units selected were those who had not fought for the Red Chinese in the Civil War yet had not evacuated to Taiwan; of doubtful loyalty.

This situation can be ruthlessly useful in situations where the opponent is not seen by the less-loyal as liberators, hope of rapprochement with the existing powers is held out as a reward for good performance, and/or the families of the less-loyal are hostage to their behavior.

And the NKVD in the second line will continue to lay down covering fire while you advance...

 

[Condottiere]

The technical term in gaming would be crunch time.

With mercenaries, it's an appeal to self interest.

 

[Timerover51]

The Chinese Intervention in the Korean Conflict was similar. The units sent across the border were expected to be slaughtered by the UN forces while still overwhelming them. The units selected were those who had not fought for the Red Chinese in the Civil War yet had not evacuated to Taiwan; of doubtful loyalty.

This situation can be ruthlessly useful in situations where the opponent is not seen by the less-loyal as liberators, hope of rapprochement with the existing powers is held out as a reward for good performance, and/or the families of the less-loyal are hostage to their behavior.

Careful, or I might go off on one of my Dugout Doug rants.

 

[aramis]

The individual was a Major in the U.S. Army Quartermaster Corps, and all of the operations were run by the U.S. Army, no war profiteering possible. The only profits were on the sale of chocolates to the canteens, which were controlled by the Army Service of Supply, and went to purchase more canteen items.

More than one supply chain individual has profiteered via black market and "missing inventory"...

Not nearly so many as fiction implies, but definitely no shortage of them lining their pockets.

Not to mention kickbacks on local supplies.

Common schemes historically include:
bulk supplies having a box "contaminated in shipping" so the profiteer could then sell them on the black market.
doctoring paperwork to show less than actual received
doctoring paperwork to show more shipped to unit than ordered.
listing serviceable parts as damaged, and then mailing them home or black marketing it.

It's a different kind of war profiteering, but it's still profiteering.

 

[Cryton]

all of the operations were run by the U.S. Army, no war profiteering possible.

Horse-hockey. That statement is an over generalization.

Not only did happen, as you know, there are plenty of documents that show that not only DID it happen, it happened most often with the candy and cigarette rations given to U.S. Soldiers than any other particular items that ended up on the Black Market.

See the Documentary on the history and creation of the MnM candies, and the Hershey corporations involvement in WW II, amongst others.

 

[Condottiere]

In a warzone, imagine how much a ration pack would be worth to the local civilians.

 

[Timerover51]

In a warzone, imagine how much a ration pack would be worth to the local civilians.

The Serbs in the 1999 bombing campaign were feeding the air-dropped MREs to their pigs.

In WW2, what the civilians in the war zones were after were the cigarettes including with the C-ration pack, and the chocolate bars. In North Africa, the standard rate of exchange was a dozen eggs for a pack of cigarettes, an egg for a chocolate bar. Military rations for the field are not exactly highly palatable.

 

[Condottiere]

How about England in nineteen forty three, or Germany in nineteen forty six?

Candies and cigarettes were always in the luxury range, maybe less so today.

This seems the currency of choice in some locales:

 

[Timerover51]

The following is a footnote quote from page 136 of CMH Pub 10-15 The Quartermaster Corps: Operations in the War Against Germany. Pilferage accounts for losses of 2 per cent of all "B" ration shipments, the "B" ration being the operational field ration using non-perishable items and was distinct from the "C" ration, which was intended for use when the combat situation did not allow for the use of field kitchen prepared rations. At the start of the war, the "C" ration had only three menus: meat and vegetable hash, meat and vegetable stew, and meat and beans. It was an improvement over the previous individual field ration, but it was monotonous and there are reports of some units getting the same meat and vegetable component for 60 days as a time. German prisoners did like it, however. The "K" ration was closer to the Meal, Combat, Individual used in Vietnam, but was strongly criticized over the lack of bulk in the ration, leading men to feel hungry in short order.

Pilferage headed the list for the following reasons: open storage provided ready access to those bent on pilferage, opportunities abounded for pilferage when rail shipments were made in open cars for distances up to 1,500 miles requiring five to six days en route, black markets flourished in impoverished, underfed communities, and "stealing" was not considered "a debasing profession by certain elements of the native population." Ltr, Col W. D. Cronkhite, OSD NYPE, to Gregory, 15 Jan 44; 1st Ind, Larkin to OSD NYPE, 24 Dec 43. Both in OQMG MED 430.

The ration pilferage rate ran about 2 per cent of all rations shipped, with the major offenders being local handlers and U.S. soldiers. Some theaters were worse than others, while the lost rate from spoilage in the Southwest Pacific area was a major problem throughout the war. I still would have loved to see what would have happened to the North African who was stopped with a boatload of peanut butter near Casablanca when he tried to sell it. The Arab could not read the markings on the crates. Peanut butter is definitely an American thing.

Edit Note: One thing about being retired since 1978 has been the amount of reading and research I have done. Initially, I was working my way through the Army "Green Book" series on World War 2 history at the Fort Sheridan Library, now I can both buy the hard copies, which I can take anywhere to read, albeit they do tend to be heavy, and download them online to read on the computer. That does speed up getting quotes from them by a lot.

 

[Timerover51]

The following is a description of Confederate Secretary of War James Seddon taken from A Rebel War Clerk's Diary by John Beauchamp Jones, which can be found on Project Gutenberg. It should be noted that when Jones refers to himself as a War Clerk, his position was actually that of the administrative head of the Confederate War Department, serving directly under the Secretary of War, and with frequent contact with Jefferson Davis, who appointed him.

Mr. Secretary Seddon, who usually wears a sallow and cadaverous look, which, coupled with his emaciation, makes him resemble an exhumed corpse after a month’s interment, looks to-day like a galvanized corpse which had been buried two months. The circles round his eyes are absolutely black!

Generally one does not find such descriptions that could be used for D&D in a military journal, but Jones is unique in his writing. He excoriates just about everyone except Davis and Lee.

 

[Timerover51]

Sometimes in going through intelligence reports, the reading gets a bit grim. The following extract from a Japanese Diary records the execution of 9 Australian civilians near Buna on New Guinea. It is taken from the Intelligence Bulletin Volume 1 Number 6, February 1943, published by the Military Intelligence Service, War Department, page 21.

"Aug. 13.—Natives brought us nine Australian prisoners—five men, three women, and one child.
"Aug. 14.—About 0800 hours, we decapitated or shot the nine prisoners."

The Allied Translator and Interpreter Service report that it is based on can be found at the Combined Arms Research :Library Digital Library under Allied Translator and Interpreter Section, Southwest Pacific Area [information bulletin] research report, 29 April 1944, copy no. 60. The following is the source of the above quote.

IATIS Document No. 1051, (Original is reproduced as Appendix "A", Part III, p A3 ) a diary dated 17Jun 42 -17 Aug 42 belonging to unknown member of SASEBO 5 SNLP, 2 Company, 1 Platoon, 1 Section, contains the following entries:

Sasebo 5 SNJP (sic, I suspect the "P" is a mistake for "F") would be the Sasebo 5th Special Naval Landing Force, sometimes called the "Japanese Marines" which were naval personnel trained for land operations. Probably the best way to describe the unit strength was that of a reinforced battalion.

 

[Blue Ghost]

The Stinger, used on Iwo Jima;

https://youtu.be/YgecTgbz3ik

 

[BackworldTraveller]

Sometimes in going through intelligence reports, the reading gets a bit grim.

I spoke with a friend's uncle who had surrendered on Java in 1942 to save the wounded: A joint Brits, Dutch and American force. The wounded were immediately butchered. Fortunately for him he was an ex-miner and he was down a mine for the rest of the war (away from the guards). Sadly the mine was at Hiroshima. And then (because the mine head was wrecked) they moved them to another installation just outside Nagasaki. Just a handful of the original group survived.

He was not a fan of anything Japanese.

Died of cancer.

 

[Timerover51]

Do you have any military data that is more contemporary?

The following data on special-use weapons comes from the Gulf War Air Power Survey Volume 4, covering the 1991 Gulf War. The volume can be downloaded from the Air Force Historical Support Division. https://www.afhistory.af.mil/

BLU-82: a 15,00O-pound GP bomb originally designed to clear helicopter landing zones in Vietnam. The warhead contains 12,600 pounds of GSX slurry and is detonated just above ground level by a 38-inch fuze extender. The weapon produces an overpressure of 1 ,OOO pounds per square inch. Eleven BLU-82s were dropped during Desert Storm, all from Special Operations C-130s. The initial drops were intended to test the ability of the bomb to clear mines; no reliable bomb damage assessment exist on mine-clearing effectiveness. Later, bombs were dropped as much for their psychological effect as for their destructive power.

GBU-28: a special weapon developed for penetrating hardened Iraqi command centers located deep underground. The bombs are modified Army artillery tubes, weigh 4,637 pounds, and contain 630 pounds of high explosives. They are fitted with GBU-27 LGB kits, 14.5 inches in diameter and almost 19 feet long. Only two of these weapons were dropped in Desert Storm, both by F-111Fs. One weapon hit its precise aimpoint, and the onboard aircraft video recorder displayed an outpouring of smoke from an entrance way approximately 6 seconds after impact.

There is a huge amount of information in the volume of the survey concerning weapons, tactics, and aircraft used.

 

[MarcPolo]

Other Services online History Libraries?

Thank you for the USAF History link. Are there comparable public URLs for the other Services or the UK?

 

[Timerover51]

Thank you for the USAF History link. Are there comparable public URLs for the other Services or the UK?

The U.S. Army has a fair number of books on current operations, such as Afghanistan and the Second Gulf War.

https://history.army.mil/index.html

The U.S. Marine Corps keeps changing their URL for their history website, but you can search online for the current version.

The Navy really does not have much about current operations.

As for the UK, I have never really looked.

 

[Timerover51]

The following quote gives the division of prize money for the United States Navy during the War of 1812. The quote was taken from Edgar Maclay's A HISTORY OF AMERICAN PRIVATEERS, which may be found on archive.org.

Congress voted fifty thousand dollars to the officers and crew of the Constitution when.they captured the Guerriere, and the same amount when she took the Java, notwithstanding the fact that each craft was destroyed at sea. The same sum was given to the captors of the Macedonian. The rule for distributing prize money in the navy was to divide the total amount into twenty equal parts. Where the sum was fifty thousand dollars the result was as follows: Three parts, or seven thousand five hundred dollars, to the captain; two parts, or five thousand dollars, to the sea lieutenants and sailing master; two parts, or five thousand dollars, to the marine officers, surgeon, purser, boatswain, gunner, carpenter, master's mates, and chaplain; three parts, or seven thousand five hundred dollars, to the midshipmen, surgeon's mates, captain's clerk, schoolmaster, boatswain's mates, steward, sailmaker, master-at-arms, armorer, and coxswain; three parts, or seven thousand five hundred dollars, to the gunner's yeomen, boatswain's yeomen, quartermasters, quarter gunners, coopers, sailmaker's mates, sergeants and corporals of the marines, drummer, fifer, and extra petty officers; seven parts, or seventeen thousand five hundred dollars, to the seamen, ordinary seamen, marines, and boys. As the last item, seventeen thousand five hundred dollars, was divided among some two hundred men and boys, it gave about eighty-seven dollars to each man, or nearly an equivalent to a year's wages. To the commander, whose pay varied from six hundred dollars to twelve hundred dollars, the sum of seven thousand five hundred dollars was a snug fortune. Each of the sea lieutenants got a little less than one thousand dollars, their regular pay being four hundred and eightydollars.

 

[Condottiere]

Privateering is net profit orientated incentivization; however, usually half goes to the Crown.

Prize money is gross profit based on the value (adjusted for shrinkage) of the loss to the enemy.