Some people dont get Traveller!!

[Shadow Bear]

I'm often boggled that people still think that the random character generation system of CT is even worth the paper it's written on, let alone think it's actually superior to anything else...

I'm boggled that anyone is as narrow minded as that statement above seems to imply. Talk about a limited world view!

Random character generation offers some inspiration, it offers excercises of the imagination and the mind, and it encourages *difference*. Building characters (from the people I've seen who do it over the past 20 years) encourages people always playing their favorite archetype and often boringly similar characters.

But of course, I must be an absolute dunderhead. [/QB][/QUOTE]

I like the random character generation of a PC as set up in Traveller. It can give a background from which the player can draw. If your players cannot work with what the get then allow them to develop 2 or three charatcters and choose one to play. You can always use the others for NPCs.

I also do NOT like much of the GURPS rule system. While I will not call it what other son this thread have I will not run it as I consider any other Traveller rule system better.

Traveller is Traveller not AD&D or other RPG. If you don't like the rule system modify it or play something else!

 

[jchurchill]

It scared the piss out of the group what these weapons can do -- to THEM (Remember: What they can use, the enemy can!
================================================
Exactly. As I said in my post...let this character have a hand diintegrator. Just be preppared for his whining when his super character that he carefully built is killed in seconds by one.

 

[EvilDrGanymede]

Originally posted by secretagent:
I personally think the generation system adds some of the feel of real life. We don't always get to choose our exact path and sometimes people drift into a career or profession for a while and learn ineresting skills and abilities. Playing a character that has some physical flaw or mental defect [no insinuation there dear doctor] is often more challenging and fun than playing the FFFFDF here of the galaxy. Besides if one is highly successful in a career and has no reason ot leave it they won't. So there is little or no justification for having them leave a service unless something happens or they start to get too old and want some excitement in their life.

I can see that logic, but not everybody wants to do that. Heck, almost everything in the CT character generation system is randomly determined - even what skills you have! If you have a certain character in mind before you sit down to play CT, chances are you won't be able to play it. A lot of people go into character generation with specific character concepts nowadays, and they can't get characters that fit their vision in a random system like CT. I could start off thinking 'right, I want to play a grizzled marine' and end up not even making the enlistment roll! The problem is that AFAIK CT doesn't even provide you with an alternative, less random, way of making the character that you want, short of fixing the die rolls.

I'm one of those people who don't enjoy playing characters that they don't want to play. I'm not interested in 'growing into' a character, I'm not interested playing characters that aren't what I had in mind. There are plenty of other characters in the game universe who can be something I don't want to be playing, but I only want to play those characters that I actually am interested in playing. Hence I feel that point generation systems are 'vastly superior', because they allow me to do exactly that. That's my opinion - if others prefer random then fine, but I don't see the attraction at all.

But more relevant to the original poster - the fact that CT apparently doesn't have a non-random alternative to the chargen system it presents means that players are lumbered with a system that generates characters that they may not necessarily want to use, and forcing your players to play those characters will not add to anyone's enjoyment.

I like the random character generation of a PC as set up in Traveller. It can give a background from which the player can draw. If your players cannot work with what the get then allow them to develop 2 or three charatcters and choose one to play. You can always use the others for NPCs.

Why force the player to waste his time making two or three characters in the first place though?

 

[EvilDrGanymede]

Originally posted by kaladorn:
Random character generation offers some inspiration, it offers excercises of the imagination and the mind, and it encourages *difference*. Building characters (from the people I've seen who do it over the past 20 years) encourages people always playing their favorite archetype and often boringly similar characters.

But of course, I must be an absolute dunderhead. [/QB]

First, I didn't imply anyone was a 'dunderhead' by liking random systems, so stop taking things so personally. I just don't see the attraction of it myself, is all.

Second, what exactly is wrong with having players play characters that they actually WANT to play? For example, Why should the GM force a player to play an Army sargeant who got injured in combat and forced to retire when he wants to play a grizzled ex-army major who's seen combat on 30 worlds? It doesn't matter whether you as a GM think the character is 'boring', as long as the player is enjoying himself why complain?

 

[kaladorn]

Originally posted by Evil Dr Ganymede:
First, I didn't imply anyone was a 'dunderhead' by liking random systems, so stop taking things so personally. I just don't see the attraction of it myself, is all.

First, I didn't take it quite as personally as I might have made it sound (sorry if you thought I was sniping...). But why it 'boggled' you that people might still want to use random creation and why they might think it superior gave me the kind of impression you were looking down your nose at the school of thought I subscribe to, so I took that a bit personally, I guess.

If you had just said, "I don't enjoy random generation, I like to build what I want and don't enjoy it otherwise" (as you did in a subsequent post), I'd probably not have had an issue. It was the sort of implicit (or seemed to be) sentiment that random generation was mind boggling and who in their right mind would want that? which caught my attention.

Second, what exactly is wrong with having players play characters that they actually WANT to play? For example, Why should the GM force a player to play an Army sargeant who got injured in combat and forced to retire when he wants to play a grizzled ex-army major who's seen combat on 30 worlds? It doesn't matter whether you as a GM think the character is 'boring', as long as the player is enjoying himself why complain?

Well there are two thoughts on that:

1. No one should be forced to play something they dislike.

But at the same time

2. People tend to go with what they know, being lazy, rather than trying new things. Even if they could end up liking the new thing more.

So, as much as I don't think people should be forced to do things they hate, some people need to be encouraged to try new things (which they end up liking and broadening their experience with).

And I don't (really) object to others crafting a character... expect for two things: They tend to also be the min-maxers I know who go for every iota of advantage (unlike the evolutionists). Secondly, they tend to sometimes take their own perception of their character so far that it starts to be an impediment to the referee's freedom's in his own universe. Neither of those is a good thing.

I don't object to GT (note, I did not say a bad thing about it - I don't like it, but the game itself is fine for those like yourself who enjoy that style). But it is not 'vastly superior', at least not in an impersonal or general sense, as you implied.

The creation and evolution methods are different. each suits different players. A great game would have both. Unfortunately, to date, we get one or the other. (pick your version, pick your poison)

For me, I utterly dislike GT because it *forces* me to build a character. I have to make lots of decisions that seem artificial and micromanaging to me. Why is that more fair to my tastes than CT generation is to you and yours? Answer - it is not.

So that is not 'clearly superior' in any objective sense.

So, what I'd like to see in T5 is a system which allowed both types of player to create characters the way they found most conducive to their enjoyment. OTOH, this is a tough job (I can't think of anyone who has done it completely right yet).

 

[T. Foster]

I prefer randomized character generation to a point-buy method like GURPS. That said, I agree (to an extent) with the Evil Dr. that char-gen in CT is a bit too random -- you have to be awfully lucky to even come reasonably close to any sort of preconceived character concept. MT is a little better -- brownie points allow you to shift random rolls, and skill cascades allow some choice of skills. T4 is in some ways even better -- in certain circumstances random rolls can be avoided entirely. T5-draft is like T4 but too fiddly and complicated with special cases and exceptions and dangling rule-lets all over the place.

My ideal would be for Traveller to have 2 char-gen systems: one a mostly-random system with occasional allowances for player-choice to affect rolls and decisions (like MT and T4) and the other a point-juggling GURPS-esque system. Balance the two so that a point-built character is equivalent to a slightly-better-than-average random character. Include a couple paragraphs explaining the appeal of each system ('game within a game' and 'organic development' vs. 'I know exactly what I want to play right now'), and then let the individual players and referees decide which to use.

 

[EvilDrGanymede]

Originally posted by kaladorn:
For me, I utterly dislike GT because it *forces* me to build a character. I have to make lots of decisions that seem artificial and micromanaging to me. Why is that more fair to my tastes than CT generation is to you and yours? Answer - it is not.

That I see as a design flaw in CT. I'm pretty sure that GURPS does have a 'random character generation' option tucked away somewhere (it's Chapter 11 of the GURPS 3e basic set) to appease the random generation fans. CT, as far as I know, does not make any attempt to provide a system that is not based entirely around random generation for those who don't want to do that (short of fixing the dice rolls). So CT is definitely biased against my tastes, whereas GURPS is more flexible because it has both systems (assuming I'm remembering correctly).

So that is not 'clearly superior' in any objective sense.

I didn't imply it was - did you not notice the IMO in my original post? It means 'In My Opinion'. 'In my opinion, it's clearly superior' does not mean 'it is objectively superior'.

(edit: found the GURPS random generation rules).

 

[far-trader]

Is it time for the never ending refrain of "It's your game folks, play it however YOU want to play it" yet? I remember even E.G.G. of AD&D stating something similar in a moment of clarity before his ego returned and he said something like 'if you don't play with THE rules then you are not playing THE GAME' (as if I cared). At least I believe you'll never hear Hunter say anything like that

Anyway, I'm a great fan of the 'random' generation as a means of enhancing 'role' playing (even the survival fail equal dead rule, though its not much used even by me anymore) which I much prefer to 'roll' playing of which points buy systems seem to me the ultimate weenie munchkin min-max roll system (its like looking at all your dice rolls ahead of time and picking the ones you want). Its been my experience too that this almost always leads to the same players playing the same archetype in the same way with the same personality. I've even seen the same archetype played as several different races

That's not to say I haven't seen great role-playing from point buy sytems and poor role-playing from random systems but its rarer in my experience.

As for why should any player generate a character or two (or several) they won't play and give it to the GM before they get the one they want, I call it part of paying dues to the group to provide some detailed help for the overworked GM. Personally I find it a thrill to be a part of that side of the creation too.

Don't like the random skill list you end up with in CT basic LBB 1? Simple, do what I do when I want a specific skill set. Make all the rolls you usually do but instead of rolling the skills on the table of your choice, flip the order, roll the table of 'choice' (1-3*) and pick your skill. Works for me.

* if your Edu lets you use table 4 then you pick that table if you want but learn what the service needs, i.e. roll the skill

You want to play a Marine, fine lets see if you make the enlistment roll. No? Well then treat that as failure to enter the OTC program and volunteer (i.e. don't roll draft, I as GM just let you in). Voila, you're a marine! Of course you are just a volunteer grunt and not eligible for promotion out of the ranks for your first tour but that's not why you signed up anyway, right?

Anyway, that's a few ideas from my experience, use 'em or chuck 'em, heck even change 'em till I wouldn't recognize 'em. The goal is to have a fun time with your buds/mates/pals/chums and maybe even make some new 'uns, right? Or have I been missing the point all these many many years

 

[aravain]

Perhaps you need to ask those players reluctant to play Traveller just exactly what they are looking for in a gaming system and their characters. In 30+ years of gaming, I cannot remember offhand any one system that couldn't be tweaked or changed to fit into a a specific mindset of either the GM's or player's prefered thinking (within reason).

If it is a matter of style or tone, certainly you can adapt to fit their basic needs with a little mental sweat on your part. Only if the basic nuts and bolts of a system, either character generation or event resolution, is not in their "style" can you abandon hope in reaching a compromise and even then, it would take both parties refusing to give a little to reach an impass.

I game to have fun and interact with people I enjoy on an intellectual and personal level. I sometimes "run" in a system that may not be my favorite style or lacks (in my opinion) a logical or ,at least, well balanced set of rules. I do so, because it allows me to "have fun" with people I like. Any time you have to drag a party to the gaming table kicking and screaming about something defeats the reason most of us game.

Set aside some time for a short meeting with your group. Ask what they are looking for during your gaming group get togethers. Determine if their goals and yours are compatable with compromise in regards to Traveller. Intelligent people can see different on the same issue with both having, to them, valid arguements. If you, as a GM, refuse to compromise (change) Traveller (no value assumed), accept it and move on to another system. It was designed to be fun, people!

My real life is tough enough without having to pressgang people into my style of roleplaying.

 

[kaladorn]

Originally posted by Evil Dr Ganymede:
That I see as a design flaw in CT. I'm pretty sure that GURPS does have a 'random character generation' option tucked away somewhere (it's Chapter 11 of the GURPS 3e basic set) to appease the random generation fans. CT, as far as I know, does not make any attempt to provide a system that is not based entirely around random generation for those who don't want to do that (short of fixing the dice rolls). So CT is definitely biased against my tastes, whereas GURPS is more flexible because it has both systems (assuming I'm remembering correctly).

Can you clarify something for me? How does something in a basic game allow you to generate characters using templates not present in the product? That is to say, how can I generate a First In Marine Spec Ops dude using the GURPS rules? If you're just talking about random physical stats... that's not really a complete system. And if I still have to go around making skill choices, etc, then that doesn't quite fit the bill either.

So, what can I really generate with this?

So that is not 'clearly superior' in any objective sense.

I didn't imply it was - did you not notice the IMO in my original post?

Actually, no. I did not notice it. If it was there, I apologize for missing it. Those three little letters rather change the meaning, so if that was what you said, then I have little or no issue with that (as I indicated, I had little or no issue with your subsequent presentation).

And for reference, I am basing my comments on the CT system really off of MT, which has brownie points and is thereby flexible enough to allow more sculpting, but I didn't really disinter that until someone mentioned that in another post which made me recollect that it isn't quite CT in its severity... (just mentioned in the interests of fair disclosure)

 

[EvilDrGanymede]

Originally posted by kaladorn:
Can you clarify something for me? How does something in a basic game allow you to generate characters using templates not present in the product? That is to say, how can I generate a First In Marine Spec Ops dude using the GURPS rules? If you're just talking about random physical stats... that's not really a complete system. And if I still have to go around making skill choices, etc, then that doesn't quite fit the bill either.

So, what can I really generate with this?

It looks like you can generate a character, roughly in the range of 100 points. You roll dice to see what your attributes are, and what ads/disads you have from a table, you roll dice to see how many skills you have then you either roll more dice and check a table to see which skills you have, or you pick them from a table. skillThere's nothing like a 'lifepath', but there's never been anything like that in GURPS anyway.

Of course, you're no more likely to make a First In Marine Spec Op using the random generation system in GURPS as you are in CT, because it's all random.

And don't forget, GURPS isn't template based - that's an option that was adopted for GT and other GURPS books. The original GURPS system is to pick and choose ads and disads and skills individually and build up the character like that, not to just grab a template and tweak it.

 

[al duc]

That is to say, how can I generate a First In Marine Spec Ops dude using the GURPS rules?

Voilà:

http://www.sjgames.com/pyramid/sample.cgi?462

 

[kaladorn]

To be fair, I only have a passing idea of GURPS, and all of that as a byproduct of buying GT stuff, then eventually the GURPS rules, so my perspective is shaped by that.

Using the MT system, I can usually create (with some minimal luck) the character type (though the details are often fuzzy) I want. If I want a Marine, once the enlistment roll is made, I can usually muddle along. Survive a couple of nasty situations or a term or two, get a BP or two, and suddenly you can shape (to an extent) your assignments. This lets you get a few little things you might want like a school or a raid assignment.

CT even isn't *totally* random. I might not be able to gaurantee a Marine Spec Ops soldier, but I can work towards one. MT lets me do it a bit easier.

And the link that was provided for GURPS, although not bad, still requires me to make a bunch of decisions about characteristics etc( Step 1: Build a 50 point character...) and it only covers 5 services and 'other'. MT offers you many more options than that (law enforcement, diplomat, doctor, barbarian, belter, rogue, hunter, bureaucrat, noble, etc). So, although it is a not bad idea, it'd need some further extensive work to put it into a 'full blown random generation system'. Still, I've bookmarked it.

At any rate, GURPS has other aspects I'm not crazy about. But that's not really the meat of this discussion.

We've strayed away from the poster's original point of how to help him sort out his friends that don't seem to get the attraction to Traveller given their complaints. I think some solid suggestions have been made but this is wandering off into a GT analysis.

Still, thanks for the information on GT. Should I ever feel the need to beat GT into my head (less likely now due to T20 and besides, MT worked fine), I'll have some extra info.

One point: I do consider GT a superlative source of library/reference material even if I don't like the game system. And it has an interesting alternate timeline.

 

[theSea]

Gentlemen--

If I may be permitted the conceit of quoting myself...

Originally posted by theSea:
The death rule is generally considered optional (actually they're all optional) in MT and beyond.
[/QB]

As has been said many times, one of the strengths of this community is the variety of options.

On the subject of not liking the 'random' character generation process because it 'does not enable one to get the character one wants' -- might I recommend handing said individual a copy of 1001 Characters or Citizens of the Imperium with the option of picking a character? They're all legitimently rolled characters and with 1000+ to choose from ,there should not be a great deal of hardship in finding something someone might like.

No time wasted (respects to Kaledorn - a very well reasoned opinion) and a fairly broad range of personal *choice* (tips hat respectfully to the Evil Doctor) - all easily within the scope of the CT rules.

Also I agree with the statements made about respecting one's players. If you are going to run a game it is ESSENTIAL that you respect your players. If that simply is not possible then they should not be playing or you should not be ref'ing.

Just another cr0.02 thrown on the fire.

--michael

a man of strong opinions


BTW - Evil Doctor Ganymede - with IT jobs increasingly going offshore here in the 'states I'm considering a career change to Evil(tm). Is there an appenticeship program in which I might enroll?

 

[siefertma2]

Originally posted by Evil Dr Ganymede:

SJG's 'Transhuman Space' seems to be doing pretty well for itself, and that's a hard sci-fi game...

That's funny, no one at my FLGS will touch that game setting either for the same reason: too hard sci-fi. That, and it's GURPS.

 

[kaladorn]

Originally posted by theSea:
character? They're all legitimently rolled characters and with 1000+ to choose from ,there should not be a great deal of hardship in finding something someone might like.

It really is a pity there isn't an MT version of the same thing, using the standard + spec duty and using the enhanced systems (for that matter, the same suppliment for GT, T20, TNE would also be useful). The problem with the 1001 or the Vets is that they're just too skill poor (classic CT made what I call skill impoverished characters).

Maybe that'd be an interesting web project.

 

[Andrew Boulton]

On the subject of not liking the 'random' character generation process because it 'does not enable one to get the character one wants'

The obvious answer is don't do it randomly. You want a strong, tough, but a bit stupid PC? Fine, give him stats of A7B567. Run him through chargen, but choose the results instead of rolling.

As a long-time GM, I've always considered this to be a perfectly valid method. Obviously, anyone who presented me with Grand Admiral FFFFFF SEHx10 had better have a damn good explanation...

 

[jchurchill]

BTW - Evil Doctor Ganymede - with IT jobs increasingly going offshore here in the 'states I'm considering a career change to Evil(tm). Is there an appenticeship program in which I might enroll?
=================================================
Ah, but is he a real evil doctor or merely an evil P.hD?? There's an important difference there. I'm sure he didn't go to 4 years of evil medical school to be called "mister."

 

[jchurchill]

It really is a pity there isn't an MT version of the same thing, using the standard + spec duty and using the enhanced systems (for that matter, the same suppliment for GT, T20, TNE would also be useful). The problem with the 1001 or the Vets is that they're just too skill poor (classic CT made what I call skill impoverished characters).

Maybe that'd be an interesting web project.
================================================
One would think that in this age of super computers [compared to 1978-1981] that this would not be a difficult task. It might take as long as an hour.

 

[FlightCommanderSolitude]

I'd have to agree with Mr Boulton and far-trader: the CT system is readily tweakable.

If you want the player to be able to buy attributes instead of rolling them, give them some reasonable number of points (say, 48) to spread between the attributes.

If you want to allow them to make a certain character type, then let them just pick their career instead of rolling enlistment.

If you want them to have control over the skills they get, just let them pick from the tables available in their career.

If you want to dispense with the process of rolling through terms, just let them pick the number of terms they want their character to spend in their career and dispense with the rolls.

This could also be presented as a way to simply save time generating a character - it's even easier than GURPS.*

By way of response to the original poster's question, if you can convince some of your potential players to try CT or T20 or whatever, then perhaps the others will join in as well out of inertia. If not, then it's probably not worth pushing it, as a bunch of unhappy gamers is about the most pathetic sight I've ever seen. I've always maintained that a great gaming session can overcome any moron's objections to a game system, and if you can pull off a fun Traveller scenario, you might end up with some new fans.

* I was a playtester for a number of the first GURPS products (sadly all out-of-print now!), so it's not like I'm totally GURPS-averse, in case anyone was wondering.