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Space and Sensor information

Hmm, looking at this lot, I'd probably go for the easy detection but difficult weapons lock angle.
I like Ken Pick's rules - Easy to apply, but a bit more meaty than CT.

Having said that, the good old Combat Environment Suit gives us a canon example of masking emissions. What if a ship could divert its emissions (not its exhaust, obviously) into its Jump Capacitors, so these act as a 'chemical chill can'? It can't hide forever, cos its capacitors will overload, but it could run silent for a while. A partial handwave, perhaps?
 
Originally posted by flykiller:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Rocks aren't terribly hot; ships are obvious because they consume considerable power.
the article in question says, "If the Oscar's crew was shivering at the freezing point, the maximum detection range of the frigid submarine would be 13.4 * sqrt(1510) * 2732 = 38,800,000 kilometers, about one hundred times the distance between the Earth and the Moon, or about 129 light-seconds." if that's true, then it seems to me NASA or whoever just ain't serious at all about these NEO's. </font>[/QUOTE]They're not. I heard that until recently, most of them were discovered by amateurs.
 
Depends entirely on the realism you like in your games, but I think two general notions are valuable:

1. In deep space, your sensors give you the Eyes of God. Nothing can hide from your eyes.

2. Next to a planet, sensors need to work harder. The closer you are, ie skirting the atmosphere if not actually in it, makes things interesting.

Why you would fight in deep space is a mystery. I would put most 'surprise encounter' type fights -pretty much what a player could expect - in an atmospheric setting. Like skimming a gasgiant, landing on a planet or flying through an asteroid canyon a la Empire Strikes Back, and being ambushed by pirates or chasing someone down in those sort of settings.
 
Using the jump capacitors as an energy sink is an excellent suggestion. It also allows you to power down the reactor and use the capacitors for "silent running".

Depending on how the maneuver drive works IYTU it may be possible to restrict maneuvering and still be stealthy.

How much "waste" heat from the reactor can feed into the grav plates and inertial compensators in CT I wonder... ;)
 
Originally posted by Sigg Oddra:
Using the jump capacitors as an energy sink is an excellent suggestion. It also allows you to power down the reactor and use the capacitors for "silent running".
Assuming your jump capacitors can accept high entropy energy (which means violations of the second law of thermodynamics), yes.
How much waste heat from the reactor can feed into the grav plates and inertial compensators in CT I wonder... ;)
None. That's why it's called 'waste' heat. If you can do something useful with it, by definition it's not waste heat.
 
Assuming your jump capacitors can accept high entropy energy (which means violations of the second law of thermodynamics), yes.
Yeah but my ship already has artificial gravity, reactionless thrusters, and a jump drive. At some point I just have to shrug.
 
One of the problems with building decent sensors is getting a wide enough sensitivity band to make the detections with enough discrimination in the right bands, and the very narrow bands in which specific objects radiate/reflect.

You need several things:
1) Sensitivity in a range that the item is reflecting or radiating
2) wide enough sensitivity to not be blinded by other objects in the field of view
3) minute enough resolution to assure pinging the pixel
4) enough movement to preclude the source being a distant object
5) at least two, preferably 4-10, sightings over distance to establish movement.


So, how DO you sneak in? Cryochem chill systems, patience, and long, slow, no-maneuver courses that put you visible from the world only against an known brighter object!

If they can't find you in the blinding returns of the extant object, then they won't see you at all... unless they have off-line-of-intended-sight sensors, too....
 
Originally posted by Anthony:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Sigg Oddra:
Using the jump capacitors as an energy sink is an excellent suggestion. It also allows you to power down the reactor and use the capacitors for "silent running".
Assuming your jump capacitors can accept high entropy energy (which means violations of the second law of thermodynamics), yes.
How much waste heat from the reactor can feed into the grav plates and inertial compensators in CT I wonder... ;)
None. That's why it's called 'waste' heat. If you can do something useful with it, by definition it's not waste heat.
</font>[/QUOTE]Black globes already violate the second law of thermodynamics, so I think that in Traveller the second law of thermodynamics isn't completely correct.

I think that the fusion PPs are supposed to use cold fusion, and you can probably do something with some of heat.
 
Originally posted by Kaale Dasar:
Black globes already violate the second law of thermodynamics, so I think that in Traveller the second law of thermodynamics isn't completely correct.
Your ideas are intriguing to me and I wish to subscribe to your newsletter.

 
Originally posted by Kaale Dasar:
Black globes already violate the second law of thermodynamics, so I think that in Traveller the second law of thermodynamics isn't completely correct.
Yeah, as written, they do, though you can give them almost all of their current functionality without having them do so. Of course, M-drives violate the first law.
[qb]I think that the fusion PPs are supposed to use cold fusion, and you can probably do something with some of heat.
Fusion power plants are hot fusion (fusion+, in t4, may have been cold fusion). In any case, oddly enough, 'cold' fusion would have a worse IR signature than 'hot' fusion.
 
Originally posted by Black Globe Generator:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Kaale Dasar:
Black globes already violate the second law of thermodynamics, so I think that in Traveller the second law of thermodynamics isn't completely correct.
Your ideas are intriguing to me and I wish to subscribe to your newsletter.

</font>[/QUOTE]Thank you.

Sorry, I don't have one. If you pay me to make one I could try to make one...
 
Originally posted by AviH:
First thanks for the very prompt responses and pointers to sites…
I found Sigs' site very depressing ;)
...One thing the site does show is that my concept of "Submarine" warfare is wrong – in submarine warfare detection ranges are short and accuracy is low (all relative to air combat) In space if we use the heat signature of power reactors and maneuver drives ranges are high…
Well one thing to remember that despite the formatting and real attmept at accuracy; the site is a copy & paste of information. The sites author is not a physical scientist, has no training or advanced degree in any physical science. Simply reading lots of books and an interest does not give the level of knowledge neccessary to look behind the equations so to speak. So be not depressed!


The determinant is not so much the heat put out, but the "heat" at the observers location. It will basically decrease as the the inverse of the distance squared i.e., viewed as a point source. Actually, you really want to look at power density emitted, it makes it easier to find the siganture at any distance. Temperature is a bit misleading, something can be hotter than the sun but much, much dimmer, since the amount of power output by the sun is simply enormous.

Another disconnect with current tech I don't see mentioned often is the power required for weapons and drives. Usually the requirements are so high that no material exists (this includes cooling systems which rely on materials for heat transfer) that could possibly hold the power plant needed to supply this power. That is, the excess waste heat is so high it would simply melt any material we know of or those even three orders of magnitude better.


As others have mentioned there are so many things about Traveller that are impossible under our current technology and more importantly, understanding of the laws of physics, what's wrong with postulating something that allows for the "sub-hunt" idea.

The one non-realistic piece of physics you may "have" to accept for a playable game is FTL travel. Accepting this may lead to a solution for our heat problem. If a jump drive can send an object into jump space, is it such a leap to think that it might not be able to send energy (heat) into jump space? Unlike an object this heat is far easier to send in, never emerges or emerges on a large sphere somewhere else. In a sense advacened fusion engines use some sort of anomoly field that allows them to shunt waste heat into jump space. (Maybe also a reason why a damper can't just shut your power palnt down). When the "system" from a thermodynamic point of view is viewed as including jump space, no violation of thermodynamics occurs. Having the energy remerge is no problem either as long as it contains no information content.

In addition, viewing jump space as part of the "system" also helps avoid violation of the conservation of energy and momentum.

If you need a couple of real world physics "hooks" that might hint to the existence of jump space to support in game rationales. Maybe normal objects, or past/present jump civilizations, do interact with jump space. Potentially this in and out is part of the explanation of the missing mass of the universe, the so called dark matter, and maybe also a physical basis for vacuum free energy. In addition, if heat energy remerges with a bit of a shift, it might explain the background microwave radiation. (I know we have an explanation for this already but the uniformity wasn't initially expected. Maybe the initial expectation was right and something else explains the microwave background.) Just some ideas.

I personally like a "sub-hunt" potential for game reasons but want hiding to be hard, requiring special engines (or really well tuned engines, or both) that can shunt more heat to jump space etc., operating on low power etc. Making a well tuned engine a quiter engine also puts part of being stealthy in the hands of players and makes engineers all the more valuable.
 
I prefer FTL drives that don't have a special "Space" that ships travel though.

There are two such drives that come immediately to minds, there is the Warp drive and the Wormhole Drive. Wormholes create a short cut by twisting space so that their is a shorter path through normal space than a straight line that a starship may travel on to arrive at a destination, there is no higher dimensional "space" with special properties that a ship m,ust travel too. Most wormholes need to be constructed and are exterior to the starship, it is also called a stargate.

The other sort of FTL drive is the warp drive which expands space behind the ship and deflates it in front of the ship. Einsteins equations do not govern the rate at shich space may expand or contract. I think warp drive is safer and less trouble than a Wormhole, which may be used as a time machine.
 
Having read the webpage Sigg linked, I come away from that with disbelief.

Yes, if one has a huge lens and/or sensor array with vibration isolation, one might be able to see a non-torchship at planetary distances, if one knew precisely where to look.

However, the sky is big, and while a 5-600K blackbody [very roughly what a fusion-powered starship would emanate over its surface area if it could efficiently radiate over its entire body] does show up, to spot it and correctly identify it over the 3K background implies a signal-to-noise ratio that's outside the realm of likelihood.

For a 100-ton spherical scoutship with a surface area of 600 square meters:

Power equals 5.67E-8 W m-2 K-4 x Area x temp (K)

5.67E-8 x 600 x 600^4 = 4.4 megawatts

Only maybe 1/4 of that gets radiated in a given direction (actually much much less), so let's assume 1 MW being radiated in a spherical expansion envelope. At 1 meter distance, you could catch the whole 1 MW.

At 10 meters, you get 1/100th power, or 10 kW.
At 100 m, you get 1/10000th power, or 100 W.
At 1 km, you get 1/1000000th power, or 1 W.
At 1000 km, it's 1 micro Watt.
At 0.1 AU (15,000,000 km), it's about 4E-14W.
At 1 AU (150,000,000 km), it's about 4E-17 W, or 22.5 quadrillionths of a Watt.

This all assumes 100% transmissivity, of course, but we'll set aside dust and other dark matter for the moment.

I have trouble accepting that sensors (even TL 15 milspec sensors) can pick up that little power.
 
Originally posted by Anthony:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by princelian:

At 1 AU (150,000,000 km), it's about 4E-17 W, or 22.5 quadrillionths of a Watt.
Modern optical sensors can pick up 1 photon/sec (about 4e-19W). </font>[/QUOTE]My experience as well. Current photon detectors exist which can readily detect 1 photon. Current mass spectrometers exist which can detect a signal atom. Detection of signal is not the issue to me, but discrimination from background and noise.

So we have the signal now we need to know the noise and background to see if we can detect it. There's the background signal from the "temperature" of space itself, the temperature of the detector itself (even if cooled to liquid hydrogen temperatures), signals do to cosmic rays, etc. striking the detector elements, and shot noise. This is ignoring the noise that may arise from objects in the system and in-system traffic.

princelian's numbers make me think a crafty captain could take advantage of this noise to hide his signature.
 
I was playing around with photon counts when trying to do a sensor guess for another purpose. Assuming a 1 arcsecond resolution and 4 bytes per pixel, a complete sky map is ~2 terabytes. Assuming a 1 meter telescope and 10 seconds integration time per frame, Vlim should be 20-22 (and this limit is large noise-related); the total time to scan the sky will be a couple of hours. The apparent magnitude of a source at 1 AU is roughly 39.5 - 2.5*log10(watts), so the minimum detectable signal will be in the 10-100 megawatt range. Which is enough that ships can credibly not be spotted at an AU. The problem is that, given jump drives, detecting objects beyond about .03AU (15 light-seconds) isn't terribly important, and that drops the minimum detectable signal to 10-100 kilowatts, which it is more or less impossible for a ship to avoid (for objects in the life zone, sunlight heating the hull will do the job).

This somewhat exceeds the capability of any current modern sky scan system, but would be buildable today if someone wanted to spend the money.

Note that, if you wanted to take a closer look at something previously detected, Vlim probably increases by 5 or so, making the limit under a megawatt at 1 AU.
 
Also with warp drives, you could use something called a Tachyon beam radar. The Tachyons just bounce off the warp bubbles and produce a return. In my game a tachyon is a miniwarp bubble with a certain ranged beyond which the warp bubble collapses and releases the radiation inside. The larger warp engines are the on and off variety, the warp bubble forms and then it dissapates, forms and then disappates many times per second. That is because the warp bubble cannot be shut off from inside the warp bubble, so instead you create the warp bubble so that its energy disappates after a certain amount of time and distance is travelled. You can't see out when the warp bubble is on, only when its off. So what you see is a normal universe undistorted by FTL travel as the ship is not at FTL when you can see out. the ship can change directions inbetween warp bubbles, and it can stop by not producing another warp bubble. Tacyons are simply smaller longer lasting warp bubbles, and they bounce off of other warp bubbles producing an FTL radar return.
 
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