Space Combat games

[phydaux]

Are there any games, computer games perferably, but a tabletop game will do, that reflect REALISTIC Space Combat?

3D battles?

Vectoring and Acceleration?

A Variaty of Units? (ie Battleships, Cruisers, Escorts and Fighter/Bombers)

The only thing I can think of is Battlefleet Gothic, and that fudges A LOT for the sake of playability. And like I said, I'd rather play a computer game.

Anyone know of anything?

 

[themink]

What do you want in your "realistic" battles?

If you stick to current science - No cold fusion, Reaction drives, then it isn;t so much a battle as a decision who fires first.

Once you move to traveller type ships - ie multi G capable craft with power for big guns then everything changes.

Basically, decide what sort of battle you want to play then craft the background assumptions to whatever you need to make it work.

For example, we were playing a Star wars style CT campeign where we enjoyed the entire dogfight/swooping through space picture. The background that we used was they "Manuever" drives actually grabbed hold of the fabric of space and had to be oriented in the direction of motion (not the direction of acceleration) - this meant that the ships had to face the direction they traveled and had to "Bank" to change direction - The combats were very similair to WWII dogfights with bigger craft acting like bombers - covered in turrets, but still affraid of a fighter that could swoop in from nowhere.

If you want a game where a high acceleration ship can be pulling away from it's slower victim, and spending most of it's time facing the "wrong" way to it's line of travel so that it can bring batteries to bear. Starfire is alright - you have to do lots of rules tinkering to make it fun - and even then, I didn;t think it is worth the bother - better to make one from scratch.

 

[siefertma2]

Originally posted by phydaux:
Are there any games, computer games perferably, but a tabletop game will do, that reflect REALISTIC Space Combat?

3D battles?

Vectoring and Acceleration?

A Variaty of Units? (ie Battleships, Cruisers, Escorts and Fighter/Bombers)

The only thing I can think of is Battlefleet Gothic, and that fudges A LOT for the sake of playability. And like I said, I'd rather play a computer game.

Anyone know of anything?

Like the man just said: It all depends on what you define as realistic. It also depends on how you "playable" you want the rules. For instance: "Full Thrust" by Ground Zero Games is fairly "cinematic: using the basic rules. However, if you add the vector movement rules and other expansions found in Fleet Book 1, you can get a rather realistic space combat game that still relatively simple to play.

If you want it Traveller-themed, then wait for Power Projection from BITS to come out.

If you are willing to opt for "realism" then you can try to track down a copy of "Brilliant Lances" but it you REALLY want to go all the way look into an upcoming game called "Attack Vector" from an outfit called Ad Astra Games. (It was originally going to be called "Delta V" but was changed just a few weeks ago.) In that game every aspect of space combat is coverd from 3D vector movement, to figuring out the bearing of projectile, to yeild of nuclear warheads.

You can find out more at http://www.adastragames.com

Later,
Mark A. Siefert

 

[themink]

Shamefully I admit to owning a copy of brilliant lances.

Fun in it's own way, but not something I'm proud to have played.

Re:Realistic - one of the more realistic games I used to play was Star Fleet Battles (while it still had a reasonable body of rules) - it was very realistic as long as you accepted the Star Trek reality.

 

[phydaux]

I'm really looking for something that will recreate a Traveller/Honor Harrington type of ship-to-ship space combat.

3D, differant direction of accell and direction of movement, lots of ship classes.

That AV Web page looks killer. Too bad it isn't a computer game.

 

[themink]

Traveller and Honor harrington are very different styles of combat.

The david Webber books tend to concentrate on "engagement envelopes". They also had the virtually unplayable belly band (if things are going bad, roll ship and run away) until laser head missiles came in

I believe that He normally bases his books heavily on Star Fire (I'm positive that one of his series is based directly on it) so I imagine that if you want to play in that universe, join him.

As regards a wargame using traveller ships - why not just try it - set up a big hex map,
i) Let ships change there vector based on their accel - but then they face the direction of delta V
ii) If they don;t change vector then they can choose any facing they want
iii) Give weapons restricted fire arcs and reload rates
iv) Suck it and see

ie - try CT combat - then adjust for taste

Brilliant lances was exactly this - using TNE ship generation - the errata made it unplayable.

Good Luck

 

[RabidVargr]

If you want a computer game in which you control one ship, try either Jumpgate or EVE. Independance war also, but jumpgate's my shameful addiction. It's like an online version of Elite. objects in motion tend to stay in motion and all that. There is drag (by solar winds) which will slow you over time, but you normally use braking thrusters or if you need more braking, you turn the ship 180 and use the main engines. Combat is lasers, ammo guns, or missiles. JG combat is focused on fighters and light transports. In the next several months cap ships will be introduced as well. I can go on for a while about the game, it's free for 10 days then 10 bucks a month. Find me and I'll show ya everything about the game. There is a guy named Aslan in the game, but he's a jack...donkey.

www.netdevil.com - jumpgate home page

RV

 

[Ron]

I remember playing Mayday in the early 80s and liking it a lot. It may be 2D but it includes vector based movement and it is integrated with Traveller.

 

[TheColonel]

When I ust to play Traveller, all our spacecombat was a small scale 2 to 40 ship battles. The 3 effect then does not come into effect because 2 ships against each other will always be on the same 2D plane.

Star Fleet Battles is very good.

 

[cgriffen]

Originally posted by The Mink:
Shamefully I admit to owning a copy of brilliant lances.

Fun in it's own way, but not something I'm proud to have played.

Hmm. Why not? Brilliant Lances was an awesome game, IMHO.

 

[Takei]

Originally posted by Mark A. Siefert:
Like the man just said: It all depends on what you define as realistic. It also depends on how you "playable" you want the rules. For instance: "Full Thrust" by Ground Zero Games is fairly "cinematic: using the basic rules. However, if you add the vector movement rules and other expansions found in Fleet Book 1, you can get a rather realistic space combat game that still relatively simple to play.

If you want it Traveller-themed, then wait for Power Projection from BITS to come out.

Later,
Mark A. Siefert[/QB]

I picked up a copy of Power Projection Lite at GenCon UK and it looks very nice. There are no ship design rules in it, and the supplied ships are in the 1-5kt (IIRC). You'll have to wait for the full rules (later this year?) for those.

 

[Liam Devlin]

Hiya Mink (those stars look good on ya!);
I'm wondering why no one has mentioned Battle Rider yet here?
Like several above, I got Brilliant Lances, its workable for me and my gamers..Sorry it didnae do well for you. What faults did you find with it to say you were "ashamed" to have bought it btw?

inquiring heretics wanna know!

 

[siefertma2]

Originally posted by Starpilot:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by The Mink:
Shamefully I admit to owning a copy of brilliant lances.

Fun in it's own way, but not something I'm proud to have played.

Hmm. Why not? Brilliant Lances was an awesome game, IMHO.</font>[/QUOTE]I picked up a copy of Brilliant Lances at a local game convention. After looking it over, the game seem gratuitously complex. Maybe it was just the way it was laid out, but didn't look like the kind of game you can sit down and play in about 10 minutes.

I find that there is particular breed of game designer/player who feels that they have to simulate EVERY aspect of space combat. I know the fellow working on Attack Vector personally, and his rules take vector displacement, projectile trajectory, and even the rate at which radiation from nuclear weapons will kill off your crew into account.

Don't get me wrong. His rules are quite an achievement and they can be fun to play as long as you have fewer than two ships. However, there are moments where he could abstract many of the concepts to something a little more playable.

My first space combat experience was with Star Fleet Battles; a game I eventually ran away screaming from after my third game after a single impulse lasted 4 HOURS. Looking over the complete turn sequence chart (which believe is covers several pages) I'm surprised that in between ECM allocations and tractor auctions there isn't a phase for flush the ships toilets. (A phase the Klingon players can skip.

)

It was then I found Full Thrust: Fast, simple, and easy to modify to just about any setting. Even with the expansions featured in the Fleet Books, a game can become very detailed without becoming boring or frustrating as with other more complex space combat game.

I like it, and it's what I play today.

Later,
Mark A. Siefert

 

[Liam Devlin]

Originally posted by Mark A. Siefert:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Starpilot:

Originally posted by The Mink:
Shamefully I admit to owning a copy of brilliant lances.

Fun in it's own way, but not something I'm proud to have played.

Hmm. Why not? Brilliant Lances was an awesome game, IMHO.</font>

I picked up a copy of Brilliant Lances at a local game convention. After looking it over, the game seem gratuitously complex. Maybe it was just the way it was laid out, but didn't look like the kind of game you can sit down and play in about 10 minutes.

I find that there is particular breed of game designer/player who feels that they have to simulate EVERY aspect of space combat. I know the fellow working on Attack Vector personally, and his rules take vector displacement, projectile trajectory, and even the rate at which radiation from nuclear weapons will kill off your crew into account.

Don't get me wrong. His rules are quite an achievement and they can be fun to play as long as you have fewer than two ships. However, there are moments where he could abstract many of the concepts to something a little more playable.

My first space combat experience was with Star Fleet Battles; a game I eventually ran away screaming from after my third game after a single impulse lasted 4 HOURS. Looking over the complete turn sequence chart (which believe is covers several pages) I'm surprised that in between ECM allocations and tractor auctions there isn't a phase for flush the ships toilets. (A phase the Klingon players can skip.

)

It was then I found Full Thrust: Fast, simple, and easy to modify to just about any setting. Even with the expansions featured in the Fleet Books, a game can become very detailed without becoming boring or frustrating as with other more complex space combat game.
_____________________________________
Ahhh Mark, But BL isn't "Attack Vector". I also have to admit, its not "Full Thrust" either. Nor is "Battle Rider."

There is a line of division here in this thread:
Fleet games that are simple ; the semi complex ; and the overwrought with detail . I take the middle road more often than not.
I like a certain amout of detail in my gaming. Thats me. Others like simpler easier to learn systems. Very well. Few like the tedious rule bound Fleet games. Good subject for several polls if you ask me.

Thanks for your honesty, I appreciate it!

 

[Nearside]

I picked up an unopened, sealed box of Brilliant Lances at Origins this year. The dice were still in it!

Not sure if I'd play the game as set, but for 12 bucks I got myself some nice space hex sheets I'll get laminated, and some counters too, and I'm sure I'll be able to use it for the d20 game.

 

[Liam Devlin]

Mr Herron's idea has merit. When ya get lemons..make lemonade! Good thinking Stephen!

 

[cgriffen]

Originally posted by Liam Devlin:
I picked up a copy of Brilliant Lances at a local game convention. After looking it over, the game seem gratuitously complex. Maybe it was just the way it was laid out, but didn't look like the kind of game you can sit down and play in about 10 minutes.

Most definitely not. A good game of BL takes about 4 hours. Believe it or not, they actually cut out some of the gratuitous detail. IMO, it has the right level of detail to play out a starship combat scenario effectively. However, I do wish the scenario time could be cut down to about 2 hours. Not sure how it could be done without sacrificing some of the cool things about the game, but there you have it.

 

[siefertma2]

Originally posted by Starpilot:

Originally posted by Liam Devlin:
[qb]I picked up a copy of Brilliant Lances at a local game convention.

Whoops! Heh heh. I may have mistyped. I meant to say "sit down and LEARN in 10 minutes."

Sorry.

Mark A. Siefert

 

[Liam Devlin]

Its all right Mark. We're all human here! Starpilot's right though, it does take about 3.5-4hrs to run a good BL scenario. Its a middle of the road complexity that I can deal with without losing MY gamers in TMI!

 

[wordwildwebb]

Originally posted by phydaux:
Are there any games, computer games perferably, but a tabletop game will do, that reflect REALISTIC Space Combat?

3D battles?

Vectoring and Acceleration?...
Anyone know of anything?

Full Thrust is the best for this. If you pick up the Full Thrust rules AND if you can find the old Babylon 5 RPG Earthforce SB, you have an excellent set of vectored thrust rules as well.

The best thing about FT is that if you can come up with a good 3d stand, it converts almost seamlessly to 3d. Instead of "course change" on the plot sheet, you have "pitch" "yaw" and "roll", and if you want to be fancy you add "Thruster Push"

I bought about 100 3d flight stands from an old game called Moondragon from an old distrib I worked for, and have run Star Trek, Star Wars, and Gundam successfully with FT rules and the 3d stands. The stands are the perfect size, and the 3d joints hold the weight of the TNE minis from RAFM just fine.

Best part - with a little tweaking the interaction of crew skill rolls to the miniature battle can be simmed. There is a whole section in the Bab 5 EFSB on using their rules - a quick DC tweak and these work in T20.

If I can come up with a few more minis from the TNE line, I may try to run a 3d Traveller mod at Origins this coming year... Now to kitbash some Joes...