Spica Sector Maps

[Malenfant]

OK, we have Far Trader's map of Spica here:
http://www.geocities.com/far_trader_mail/X-mail-server.html

And now I've also made a map of just the world locations (worlds are shown by the filed in hexes), so we can get an idea of what things look like and where the clusters and mains are. I've also drawn in the 1110 borders of the Spica sector taken from the Hive Federation map on page 18 of the GT AR3 book (which are apparently the same as the AotI borders?).

Keep in mind that I'm ignoring allegience codes (some are silly anyway. There are some hi-pop Hiver worlds in the Solomani sphere?!) - all I've done is eyeball the border from the map there. I'd rather ignore the Allegience codes for now, since we're going to be regenerating everything anyway. The borders are known from maps though so I have more faith in those.

The Solomani Confederation territory is shaded blue, and the Hive Federation is shaded Pink, everything else is beyond the borders of both governments.

For 993, we're presumably going to be pulling back some of the borders a bit?

My map can be downloaded from: http://members.shaw.ca/evildrganymede3/spica/spicamap1.jpg

 

[Malenfant]

For 993, we're presumably going to be pulling back some of the borders a bit?

Perhaps not... as I mentioned in the Hiver Expansion thread, it looks like the Hivers were at their current (1120) borders in 993. And the Solomani would have probably been there too, since the border of the Solomani Confederation is basically defined as a circle 50 parsecs in radius around Sol.

 

[far-trader]

Originally posted by Malenfant:
I've also drawn in the 1110 borders of the Spica sector taken from the Hive Federation map on page 18 of the GT AR3 book (which are apparently the same as the AotI borders?).

Yep they look pretty close to the same. And the same as the other map showing the 1120 border. Or are they just the same line.

I'd rather ignore the Allegience codes for now, since we're going to be regenerating everything anyway. The borders are known from maps though so I have more faith in those.

I'd prefer using the allegiances to help define the borders, but both need some give and take and rational application. The reason I don't have so much faith in the broadly defined borders is they seem not to conform to the detailed sector borders, even in the same publication (using CT AM6 as an example) and there are worlds with allegiances listed on the wrong side of the border (at least one) in that too. So I think both are subject to some massaging for this project.

For 993, we're presumably going to be pulling back some of the borders a bit?

(or)

Perhaps not... as I mentioned in the Hiver Expansion thread, it looks like the Hivers were at their current (1120) borders in 993. And the Solomani would have probably been there too, since the border of the Solomani Confederation is basically defined as a circle 50 parsecs in radius around Sol.

I think I'd still like to pull the Solomani back a bit, maybe. As for the border butting up against the Hivers it looks to me like it actually pushes out from the (average) 50 parsec radius, like they made a rush or push to claim as deep as they could and (given the tensions and raids mentioned) continue to push. This could explain some (not many but maybe a couple) of the allegiances on the wrong side of the border as systems are bypassed and enveloped by the border change. Kinda like West Berlin during the Cold War era.

 

[Malenfant]

I dunno, it looks like a 50pc radius from Terra is bang on the Solomani border in the Spica sector to me (I'm assuming a subsector is 7 parsecs wide, because that's how wide it is if you measure across it in a straight line)... Obviously the hiver Territory in Langere is well within this distance too.

I'm figuring that Margaret said "OK, you can have all the worlds within 50 pc of Terra" and didn't anticipate that the Solomani would take that to mean that they could have the ones that happened to be in Hiver space too

. (I don't envisage a fullscale conflict over that though - just envious looks, muttering about being entitled to those planets, and lots of cross-border raids).

Maybe I should draw the Solomani sphere on the large-scale Hive Federation map too...

 

[Shadowdancer]

I thought that, by its definition, a subsector was eight parsecs wide. Is that not correct?

 

[LcKedovan]

Originally posted by Paraquat Johnson:
I thought that, by its definition, a subsector was eight parsecs wide. Is that not correct?

I think so, yeah, non-straightline it should be 8 hexes(parsecs).

-W.

 

[Malenfant]

I thought that, by its definition, a subsector was eight parsecs wide. Is that not correct?

Another one of those little inconsistencies...

In book 3 it's defined as being 10 x 8 hexes, which should be 10 x 8 parsecs since each hex is 1 pc from the centre of the next. Except that this isn't true - since the hex rows are staggered, it doesn't actually work out that way.

Take a look at this:
http://members.shaw.ca/evildrganymede2/JTAS/j6distance.jpg
The numbers in the hexes show the distance between that hex and the black hex. Using trigonometry, each column is actually 0.866 parsecs wide if measured horizontally. Thus an 8-hex wide subsector is actually 6.92 parsecs wide if measuring across it horizontally (which can be rounded up to 7 pc).

(a subsector is still 10 parsecs high though, since there's one full hex distance between each hex in a column as they're not staggered in that direction)

After all, if a ship travels directly from one hex to a hex two columns across but in the same row, it's not travelling 2 parsecs (it only does that if it takes the staggered path, which it won't do in reality) - it's actually travelling 1.7 pc.

 

[mike wightman]

This could be one of the reasons GDW experimented with squares on sector maps instead of hexes

I've read in a few places that subsector hex maps are general guides to jump distances rather than accurate star charts - but that's a bit of a no brainer since they are 2D and space is 3D

 

[Malenfant]

Squares are more awkard than hexes. If you stagger the rows, everything gets confused - if you don't stagger them then you have only four directions where the distance is exactly 1 pc to the centre of the next hex, not 6. So Hexes are better in that sense. (I know, I tried experimenting with this myself

)

 

[Klaus]

I've always felt the hex maps are specific for jump navigation rather than astronomical. Its a flat rendition of 3D space.

Imagine if all the worlds were metal rings, and all the jump routes were metal bars attatched by hinges, all the possible (ie J-6) ones that is, you'd end up with a ragged sheet of something like chain mails. You'd surely be able to make some kind of 3D topology of that.

So maybe we can think of the map books as trade and navigation charts, collected in the low tech paper version the IISS has 'just in case'.

 

[Malenfant]

I wouldn't even try to think of translating the maps into a 3D volume... it doesn't work. Plus all the stars are in the wrong place relative to eachother anyway - real stars that are 2 pc away from eachother in reality might be 4 hexes apart on a map. But we'll gloss over that.

(or you can have a look at my near star mapping page if you want gory details

)

 

[Flynn]

As an aside, could someone with a scanner and the Atlas of the Imperium post an image of the one page that contains the sector map of Spica, so that we can make sure that the work we do is in accord with what is displayed there?

I think that this would be in accordance with the Fair Use policy from the Far Future Enterprises website, as it is only one page. (You might want to check to make sure, first. I am not a lawyer, nor do I play one on TV...)

Thanks in advance,
Flynn

 

[clementk]

Originally posted by Flynn:
As an aside, could someone with a scanner and the Atlas of the Imperium post an image of the one page that contains the sector map of Spica, so that we can make sure that the work we do is in accord with what is displayed there?

Sigg Oddra provided me with a colorized version of this map which I posted in this thread so I'd suggest contacting him.

Casey

 

[Malenfant]

From what I've seen on the AotI map, it's fairly incomprehensible on its own. It's not a hex map, and the squares that are there instead are filled with symbols that have no explanation attached.

 

[Flynn]

If you know how to read it, though, it's not that incomprehensible.

Enjoy,
Flynn

 

[mike wightman]

Malenfant, the symbols used in AotI are fairly standard for Traveller maps. And each square, because each row is offset, is surrounded by six other squares. Just like a hexagonal map but without the width distortion

 

[Tony Canopus]

Marco came up with a good way to do all this stuff, why are we even debating on how the maps are going to look? You mean we're not going to use a standard map system?

 

[Malenfant]

Well, the problem with squares is that it seems nobody's used that format since AotI. Plus if everything's presented in staggered columns of squares with 1 pc between the centres of each square, then an 8x10 subsector is going to be (8*cos45) = 5.66 parsecs wide and 10 parsecs high. That clearly contradicts everything implied previously in canon - can jump-6 go right across a subsector?

So as far as I can see, the hex maps are the standard system, so that's what we're using for this project. I don't even see that we're debating using another system to be honest, it just came up in the discussion.

 

[Shadowdancer]

Mal,

Can I suggest some "refinements" to your borders? In a couple of places it cuts through a cluster of systems to exclude a single system, which just seems too orbitary to me. I have no problem with the border cutting through a cluster so that there are several systems on each side of the border. But for some reason those single, excluded systems bother me. Maybe I'm getting in touch with my Hiver, nurturing side.

Also, are some areas where the border runs through long stretches of open hexes. I think it would be more realistic to pull it back to the nearest system hex -- there's very little point in claiming territory if there's nothing there to rule or control. It's also more aesthetically pleasing, and easier to tell which systems are in Sol and Hiver territory, and which aren't.

Lastly, there is one specific system that lies isolated along the Sol/Hiver border in ss J that currently the border places in Sol territory. I would like that system to be in neutral space; J is one of the ss I volunteered to develope, and I have plans for that system which require it to be in neutral space rather than either Sol or Hiver territory.

If I had a computer at home and the ability to do this, I do it myself and post it. But I don't.

So anyway, here are my suggested "refinements."

ss A: pull back Sol border so hexes 0205, 0206 and 0207 are not in Sol territory. Push forward to take in hex 0309.

ss E: pull back Sol border so hexes 0211, 0312, 0412, 0413, 0414, 0513, 0514, 0515, 0613, 0614, 0714, 0814 and 0815 are not in Sol territory.

ss F: pull back Sol border so hex 0916 is not in Sol territory. (Yeah, I know -- nitpicky

)

ss J: pull back Sol border so hexes 1122, 1123, 1126, 1127, 1128, 1129, 1130 and 1230 are not in Sol territory.

Pull back Hiver border so hexes 1330, 1429, 1430, 1529, 1530, 1627, and 1628 are not in Hiver territory.

ss N: pull back Sol border so hexes 1131, 1132, 1231, 1232, 1233, 0937, 0938, 0939, 0940 and 1037 are not in Sol territory. Push forward to take in hex 1137.

Pull back Hiver border so hexes 1138, 1234, 1235, 1236, 1237, 1331, and 1531 are not in Hiver territory.

ss K: pull back the Hiver border so hexes 1727, 1728, 1924, and 2023 are not in Hiver territory.

Thanks for your consideration.

 

[Klaus]

Originally posted by Paraquat Johnson:
Lastly, there is one specific system that lies isolated along the Sol/Hiver border in ss J that currently the border places in Sol territory. I would like that system to be in neutral space; J is one of the ss I volunteered to develope, and I have plans for that system which require it to be in neutral space rather than either Sol or Hiver territory.

Sounds intriguing. Had a similar idea for that ss but you'd already dibbed it. So please tell more....