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Spinal Mounts for destroyers and light cruisers

so yah, spinal mounts do kick ass

this is for T20 (from the book)

as far as the discussion goes gor making smaller ones, I don't think that it is necesary (pre TL 15 the actual problem is the plan needed to upkeep it, not the size of the object itself)

I have for TL 11
5000 tons - 500 EPs - 10USP
8000 tons - 600 EPs - 11USP

for TL 12
8000 tons - 1000 EPs - 19USP
5000 tons - 700 EPs - 13USP
2000 tons - 600 EPs - 12USP

Jon Miller
 
I think that yours are unballanced, and unneeded

it is actually fairly easy to make something in the 2000 ton range (at level 13) with a spinal mount

and at level 15 it is very easy


Jon Miller
 
It depends on the combat system you are using. what I've posted is for High Guard, not T20 since large ship combat in T20 is seriously broken.

Designing a spinal mount armed rider at Tl13 is possible, but it doesn't stand much of a chance in combat against a bay armed ship of similar size with maximum agility and defensive screens. That's using High Guard combat resolution. In T20 it is nearly impossible to miss so you may as well build an agilityless hulk.
 
And in HG, any ship with factor-14 or better armor is invulnerable to bay weapons (except bay meson guns) as long as it's 200 dtons or bigger, and (assuming equal computers) a factor-3+ meson screen will make you invulnerable to bay meson guns.

This results in the classic "meson rock;" needle/wedge configuration, armed with a medium (1000 dton) spinal mount, maximum armor and agility, and the best computer and meson screen you can buy. Only spinal meson guns can kill it easily (if they can hit and penetrate, which is about 50% of the time) and large spinal PAs (factor R+) can also hurt it. Nothing else can.
If you make the "meson rock" size L (10,001+ dtons) even factor-T spinal PAs do not get auto criticals and the number of extra hits they roll is greatly reduced.

In theory, TRAVELLER battlefleets should be made up of nothing else except the battle tenders to carry the "meson rocks" around.

From what I've heard said here, in T20 the bay meson gun is the real master of space. Meson screens must be much less effective against bay meson guns in T20 than in HG.
 
High Guard economics and spinal mounts

I've done a lot of TL 11-15 Book 5 ship designs, and I've found some interesting factoids.

1) Meson bays are almost worthless.
Any bay meson gun can be stopped by a low-quality meson screen, or a target ship's configuration.

2) Planetoid hulls generally aren't worth it.
Exceptions: very low TL armour protection, and for making ships with a higher armour rating than the TL allows.

3) Below TL 15, the cost of a 1000 dt+ ship is determined by the cost of the power plant.
Jump drives, computers, weaponry etc. are incidental compared to the tyranny of MCr3.0/ton.

4) Backup systems are cheap. Backup drives are not.
Backup screens, computers and frozen watches are relatively cheap tonnagewise compared to the combat advantage they give.

5) Before TL 12, nuclear missiles are the dominant secondary weapon.
And they rival even spinal particle accelerators as cheap n' effective ship-killers. There's almost no reason to use beam weapons (unless your referee accounts for ordnance expended.)

6) Drop tanks are a great boon for large combatants.
A TL 12 jump-4 ship with 2 pc internal fuel and 2 pc drop tanks has the advantage of 9-10 levels of armour over a similar ship with 4 pc internal fuel. In other words, drop tanks give starships many of the advantages of battle riders.

7) Combatants should carry 2 pc internal jump fuel at a minimum.
It's way too easy to find out after a single combat round that you don't have the fuel for a 1 pc jump and one week's life support. (I assume that having a 'rally point' in the same or adjacent hex is standard operating procedure.)

8) Fighters are useless...except when they aren't.
Fighters give two advantages in combat: the +1 initiative roll for the bigger fleet, and as a screen for when you need to disengage by acceleration (or have your battle riders dock with their tender.) In combat, though, they aren't anywhere near as effective as an 1000-2000 dton frigate armed with a missile bay, even ignoring the cost of the carrier.

9) Meson spinal mounts get better as they get bigger. Not so much particle accelerators.
Meson gun spinal mounts need to penetrate screens and configuration, so even a measly factor or two on the table counts. (Compare type A and type Bs, for example.) (That said, multiple small spinal meson guns are still very scary.) A particle accelerator spinal mount, however, doesn't have the power to inflict criticals against an reasonably armoured enemy ship of equivalent size, and so their usefulness declines even with the very low to-hit numbers high up the table.

10) One watch is not enough.
...Unless you have enough armour to prevent crew hits. Crew hits are worse even than internal explosion computer hits, because computer backups are cheap (for large combatant vessels) and it takes 2 turns to unfreeze your crew.

11) Better to take a critical than an internal.
Seriously. 'Fuel Tanks Shattered' is worse than anything except a catastrophic hit; it's completely irreparable and makes disengagement almost impossible. (Sure, you can fire missiles and sandcasters, but how well will they work without a computer?)

--Devin
 
Personally, I don't care for spinal mounts in large ships. The thought of aiming an entire 100k-ton battleship seems wrong, somehow.

IMTU with HG, I just group bay weapons using the turret groupings, nd extrapolating the USP factors from there. That will give you letter-class weapons.
 
Purely as a house rule, I have big ships (100ktons plus) with multiple "spinal" mounts, set up as turrets. I allow ships to carry "spinal turrets" if the size of the weapon is 1% or less of the ship's total volume.

So a 100kton battlecruiser can carry 1000-ton spinals as "turrets," a 200kton battleship can carry 2000-ton spinals that way, and the Tigress-class dreadnought carries factor-R "turrets" (at 5000 tons each) to back up her factor-T main weapon.

Combined with my rules for meson screens acting as "armor" against meson fire criticals, and Sigg's rules for big ship systems taking more damage to knock out, you get battleships IMTU which are the "monsters of space" they should be, and economically viable as well. No 10,000 ton "meson sleds" IMTU.
 
Personally, I'd take 10 bays over 1 Spinal Mount. With 100-400 batteries of bay weapons per Dreadnaught, some attacks should get through and it will take a while to disarm that ship.
 
Powered Down Spinal Mounts: (big snip of very interesting stuff)


Mike,

You're right, that is a very interesting idea.

A couple of thoughts:

- At each spinal weapon's TL introduction, it has a certain size, combat factor, and EP rating. However, as TL increase, sometimes the size goes down. It seems there's a "minimum size per TL" requirement at work here; i.e. a meson spinal can only be as small as X dTons at TL Y.

- IIRC, the relationship between size, combat factor, and EP rating across TLs follows a pattern. I remember seeing various graphs people have produced over the years, they then use those graphs to postulate a weapon's size, combat factor, and EP requirement at higher TLs. Could you use the same type of graphs to work the size angle instead of the TL angle?

- If you can work the size angle using those graphs, won't you end up with 100dTon and 50 dTon bays instead? What I'm asking is, how many size "slots" are available at the low end of the spinal scale?



Have fun,
Bill
 
Bill,

yes there is a minimum size per TL in the HG tables. I have tried the graphical method you suggested (there is a thread on it somewhere), and they do indeed end up as bay sized - with a bit of fudging.

My prefered choice is the one I opened this thread with, powering down existing guns from the table, rather than the smaller sized ones (which bend the rules a bit too much even for me ;)).
 
Getting back to spinal mounts for destroyers and light cruisers...

The question here is 'what rules set are you using?' If you're using High Guard, a ship below 10-20k dtons with a spinal is arguably a pocket battleship. (You're sacrificing a lot for that spinal mount, though - is it really worth it?)

If you're using Brilliant Lances or Fire, Fusion and Steel, baby spinal mounts start showing up on Chrysanthemums*, for the Emperor's sake. There's no clear cutoff between a line-of-battle ship and a cruiser with a hyperactive thyroid...

...unless range starts to matter. Small ships don't have the length to mount a weapon with a 10-hex short range. And 10-hex short range begins to appear around (surprise) 20k dtons. (Of course tech level matters.) So smaller spinal mounts are really most effective at knife-fighting range against similarly-sized combatants.

My very personal, entirely unsolicited opinion is that if something has a spinal mount, it's meant for the line of battle - i.e., a battleship, no matter what it's called. No admiral is going to want to leave a spinal mount-equipped ship out of his battle line, and they're going to squawk 'til they're blue in the face about the waste of assigning them to convoy escort and commerce raiding duties. (On this point they may be very wrong, of course.)

--Devin

--Devin

* I'm aware the Chrysanthemum doesn't technically have a spinal mount; it has two parallel mounts. Same diff.
 
yes there is a minimum size per TL in the HG tables. I have tried the graphical method you suggested (there is a thread on it somewhere), and they do indeed end up as bay sized - with a bit of fudging.


Mike,

Okay, I thought that was the case. However, there usually is "room at the bottom" isn't there? I mean for a given TL there are available letter codes before you need to move from "A" to "9", correct? You can start with a TL13 PA, which has a code of G (let's say) and that means you've got A thru F to work with.

(I'm sorry, but I don't have LBB:5 HG2 with me. :( )

My prefered choice is the one I opened this thread with, powering down existing guns from the table, rather than the smaller sized ones (which bend the rules a bit too much even for me).

Okay, now I get you...

... and that's a very tough question! :(

Just running a "thought experiment" here...

- We know a TL15 meson spinal mount can fire with a combat factor of A because you can damage that mount "down" to A (or 2 or 1 for that matter!)
- Despite being fired at a factor of "A" (or 2 or 1), the EPs required are still the same as when it wasn't damaged. :(

However, if folks have been able to run the spinal mount table through spreadsheets, they must have run the graphs on EPs too. If the scaling the size isn't exactly what you're after, do the EP requirements on the tables scale too? So you apply X EPs instead of Y EPs and thus fire that TL15 MG at A instead of H?

It looks very interesting, although starting to play with EPs is a slippery slope. Before you know it, you're playing SFB - Traveller!


Have fun,
Bill
 
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