Stamina/Lifeblood vs VP/WP?

[Malenfant]

(from the T20/Spycraft thread)

It may make it less deadly compared to Stamina/Lifeblood, but I consider that a good thing. After all, if I want deadly, I might as well play Call of Cthulhu, where the game setting is a world of despair & hopelessness, and the only goal is to stay alive (and sane) just a little bit longer.

I found the Stamina explanation, but looking at Stamina/Lifeblood and comparing it to the VP/WP system in the Unearthed Arcana web preview (the book is on its way to me)... they basically look like the same thing mechanically: Stamina is added by rolling a dice when you go up a level, exactly the same way as Vitality Points, and Lifeblood corresponds to the Constitution score exactly like Wound Points. And Criticals damage Lifeblood/WP directly.

The only practical differences I can find are that Lifeblood recovers naturally much more slowly (1 point per week of rest instead of per night), you go unconscious at 0 Stamina but you don't at 0 Vitality, and you regain Stamina a bit faster than Vitality (you add the Con bonus to the former).

So I guess that the T20 damage system is more deadly largely because you go unconscious at 0 Stamina? Otherwise I can't really see much difference while you're actually in a combat...

 

[hunter]

No. ALL damage is applied to Lifeblood on ANY hit. Armor just reduces it. If you ain't wearing armor you take full damage to Stamina AND Lifeblood on a hit.

Criticals in T20 ignore armor and increase damage overall, making them quite often fatal.

Hunter

 

[Malenfant]

Hmm. In that case I'm not clear on what Stamina is actually used for (on its own).

The example on page 149 of the T20 book (conveniently before Stamina and Lifeblood are actually defined ) is a bit confusing for me.

It sounds like the Armor Rating subtracts 1 die per armor point from the incoming attack (down to a minimum of the one die that rolled the highest), and then any left over just take off individual damage points?

And you say that any damage taken goes off the Stamina AND Lifeblood, so since the BEM in the example had 4 points getting through its armor it loses 4 Stamina and 4 Lifeblood? Is there no situation where the target would just lose Stamina and not Lifeblood?

 

[hunter]

Armor does not reduce Stamina damage.

Hunter

 

[Malenfant]

OK, forgive the silly questions because I'm just becoming reacquainted with the T20 rules after not having looked at them for ages...

So... if you attack someone then the full damage that is rolled will be taken as Stamina. There is presumably no way to reduce this (other than to roll less damage )?

After that, AR takes away 1 die per point down to a minimum of 1 die (whatever rolled the highest), and then any extra AR is subtracted from the number rolled on that die. The result that is left is taken as Lifeblood damage. (so if the AR is less than the dice rolled, the target is still taking a few dice of damage direct to Lifeblood, which is likely to kill them)

If it is a Critical Hit, then the number rolled on all the damage dice is subtracted from both Stamina AND Lifeblood (ie armor has no effect). Given that some weapons can roll double damage to a critical hit too (and even be more likely to get a critical), that's probably going to kill the target outright, yes?

I can see why this is lethal now

 

[hunter]

Yup, that's pretty much it.

One shot has a pretty good chance of taking anyone out regardless of level, particularly on a critical hit.

Stamina and Lifeblood are generated the same way as WP/VP, but are used differently as you see. It brings the T20 system about in line with CT. You could argue one way or another as to which one is actually more deadly.

Armor has a much greater impact in T20 than in CT, but unlike CT where it takes two stats going to 0 to kill someone, in T20 it is effectively only one stat.

Hunter

 

[Malenfant]

You do still get a few oddities though - it seems that a mere Flak Jacket is actually effective at significantly reducing the damage from shots from plasma guns, which I wouldn't have expected to be the case (it doesn't affect it enough to actually stop a one or two hits from a PGMP from killing you though )

I'm just bugged a bit by Stamina though - it seems a bit redundant. Every shot that hits will probably knock a lot off Stamina, so after a couple of shots the Stamina's down to zero but probably so is Lifeblood anyway, in which case the target is dying regardless.

Are there weapons that only do Stamina damage (ie are "non-lethal"?). And can't armour reduce Stamina damage at all? It sounds like even if all you're hit by are shots that can't penetrate armour (ie the weapon does less dice than the AR), you're still able to be knocked unconscious because the Stamina is applied to you without being modified. For example, if enough arrows (1d6) hit someone wearing Cloth armour (AR6), then they'll do all their damage as Stamina and eventually knock out the target, but no Lifeblood damage will get through because the armour takes away 6 damage points from each arrow.

Unless I've misunderstood something...?

 

[hunter]

Originally posted by Malenfant:
You do still get a few oddities though - it seems that a mere Flak Jacket is actually effective at significantly reducing the damage from shots from plasma guns, which I wouldn't have expected to be the case (it doesn't affect it enough to actually stop a one or two hits from a PGMP from killing you though )

Yes it could have been further broken down by types of attacks vs. types of armor.

I'm just bugged a bit by Stamina though - it seems a bit redundant. Every shot that hits will probably knock a lot off Stamina, so after a couple of shots the Stamina's down to zero but probably so is Lifeblood anyway, in which case the target is dying regardless.

Are there weapons that only do Stamina damage (ie are "non-lethal"?). And can't armour reduce Stamina damage at all? It sounds like even if all you're hit by are shots that can't penetrate armour (ie the weapon does less dice than the AR), you're still able to be knocked unconscious because the Stamina is applied to you without being modified. For example, if enough arrows (1d6) hit someone wearing Cloth armour (AR6), then they'll do all their damage as Stamina and eventually knock out the target, but no Lifeblood damage will get through because the armour takes away 6 damage points from each arrow.

Unless I've misunderstood something...?

Stamina isn't just 'stun' damage, it also reflects minor non-lethal injuries and wounds that can have a cumulative deteriorating effect against a character.

Hunter

 

[mike wightman]

And Mal, don't forget that once Stamina has been reduced to zero then further Stamina damage affects lifeblood instead.

One other thing is it is the lowest rolling dice that the AR removes first when assessing lifeblood damage.

p.s. Hunter, it's all 3 physical characteristics reduced to zero that kills in CT. Two reduced to zero is a serious wound.

 

[hunter]

Originally posted by Sigg Oddra:
p.s. Hunter, it's all 3 physical characteristics reduced to zero that kills in CT. Two reduced to zero is a serious wound.

<homer simpson voice>DOH!</homer simpson voice>


Hunter

 

[Malenfant]

Can you lose Stamina in any other way than in combat? I was thinking it could be used as "fatigue" or something - lose 5 points of it after running for your life away from something, or lose 10 points per night of missed sleep, or lose 5 points after extreme food poisioning or somesuch.

 

[mike wightman]

Hmm, nice idea. It's a good way to model fatigue, dehydration, hunger, and a whole host of environmental damage types

If you want to add more complications try adding a "stun save". If you take more than your Con in Stamina damage in one go you have to roll a fortitude save or pass out until you succeed at the fortitude test, roll once per turn.

 

[Malenfant]

Well, if you can't lose it any other way, I don't see much need for Stamina. It seems a bit odd for it to represent minor wounds and non-lethal injuries, when you can only lose it while you're taking major wounds and lethal damage.

 

[mike wightman]

I think there are rules for fatigue in d20 (D&D PH) but they are not linked to hit points.
Using Stamina and integrating the fatigue penalties may be the way to go.

 

[BetterThanLife]

However reducing one stat to 0 rendered you unconscious. On the first hit. per combat, all the damage was applied to one physical, randomly determined, statistic. Generally rendering the target unconscious the first time they get hit. Especially since you had a 1-15 stat and weapons do 2-16 dice of damage with most guns doing 3-4 dice. Very deadly.

Originally posted by hunter:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Sigg Oddra:
p.s. Hunter, it's all 3 physical characteristics reduced to zero that kills in CT. Two reduced to zero is a serious wound.

<homer simpson voice>DOH!</homer simpson voice>


Hunter </font>[/QUOTE]

 

[mike wightman]

A simple critical hit rule for CT is if your roll to hit is 4-6 higher than needed (choose what suits your game) then treat the damage as if it is a first hit

 

[BetterThanLife]

Sigg, Now that doesn't sound bad, but then again it isn't generally necessary. After all in most cases, the target goes down on the first hit anyway. Many firearms are 4D and therefore are going to do an average of 14 points of damage per hit. Once you start using the book 4 weapons, they take out a whole room of bad guys on turn one. An FGMP does 16 D Damage. At very long range does 8D damage but also uses the group hits by shotgun rule! (8D on the primary and 4D on Secondaries.)

Originally posted by Sigg Oddra:
A simple critical hit rule for CT is if your roll to hit is 4-6 higher than needed (choose what suits your game) then treat the damage as if it is a first hit

 

[mike wightman]

If you use an armour as damage reduction system, such as AHL, Striker or T4 (the latter grafts onto CT very easily), then it can become useful to have

p.s. I also like the T4 damage rule that says the human body can only take 3D of damage from a weapon, the rest is for armour penetration or blowthrough. There are some exceptions, e.g. shotguns, explosive rounds.

 

[BetterThanLife]

Actually I usually preferred Snapshot. But that uses the standard CT tables, it just really gives you a turn sequence. I believe though I will pretty much put the CT rules aside and get serious about using T20. The more I tinker the more I like them better. Creating NPCs is a Drag so far and the Capital Ship combat is getting my quick and dirty patch but otherwise I am actually getting quite fond of it. (One of the big things is that a Marine with a Combatrifleman-6 skill can't kill everything with a Gauss Rifle at 1200 meters. I also definitely like the Battledress is a vehicle and the scalability in combat so you can exchange fire between infantry and vehicles and/or starships. I also like the vehicle and starship design rules. CT wasn't comprehensive for vehicles and MT was too much of a pain without computer support. (Still is even with computer support.

)

Originally posted by Sigg Oddra:
If you use an armour as damage reduction system, such as AHL, Striker or T4 (the latter grafts onto CT very easily), then it can become useful to have

p.s. I also like the T4 damage rule that says the human body can only take 3D of damage from a weapon, the rest is for armour penetration or blowthrough. There are some exceptions, e.g. shotguns, explosive rounds.