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Starports, the book

I do have responses to some recent posts by Byte and Mike and Wil, but right now I can't muster the energy to bother. Maybe I'll get around to it later, maybe I'll just give it up as a bad job, especially since the argument has shifted away from my point about correlations. I've already refuted almost everything they say in previous posts anyway.

Yeah - doesn't take much imagination to deal with such a small number of exceptional situations.

No imagination at all if one just uses RW analogies.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_places_with_fewer_than_ten_residents

Could you please demonstrate how easy it is to apply one of the examples you link to here to explain a world with a population level of 0 and a Class A starport? I've browsed a handful of them and not a single useful one have I found.


Hans
 
I'm not sure which side of this discussion I actually come down on.

I can see how population and TL will affect the volume of trade and hence the size of the starport.

The actual starport rating though is all about facilities, construction and annual maintenance - not trade volume. The suggestion that the type C starport should provide refined fuel is a good one though.
 
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Could you please demonstrate how easy it is to apply one of the examples you link to here to explain a world with a population level of 0 and a Class A starport?
Sorry, don't think I can help you to grasp the concept of abandoned facilities or ones that are staffed by short termed or commuting personnel if you are unwilling to on your own.

Here is the simplest definition of analogy I could find, as the difference between example and analogy is being ignored -
Similarity in some respects between things that are otherwise dissimilar
A comparison based on such.

You've argued (your word), but refuted nothing - just stated your opinions with no justifications that I recall. I've discussed things because others may find the discussion interesting or even useful and on the chance you might provide some useful insight or ideas.

I'm more than willing to discuss things to the point of just agreeing to disagree - you can argue with yourself, if you like - I've no real interest in arguing.
 
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I can see how population and TL will affect the volume of trade and hence the size of the starport.

The actual starport rating though is all about facilities, construction and annual maintenance - not trade volume.
What I've been saying, aside from 0 pop world interjection - but much better worded. ;)

...The suggestion that the type C starport should provide refined fuel is a good one though.
Is this more about the price/penalty for refining aboard ship not being right and/or the OTU setting?

With breakdowns more common from unrefined fuel -
- in Class C systems make the choice of temp repair, or pull in for repairs.
- in Class D its temp repairs only - find the shortest route to a shipyard. :D
- in unlucky/poorly choosen situations jump tender/cargo 'towing' or selling the ship!

Felt unrefined fuel worked well - till HG changed things up. Fuel purification plants seemed like a good idea, though I ended up house ruling a lot.

Misjumps in CT weren't too bad, but I made the result of a misjump all ref calls instead of dice rolling for distance/direction - allowed adventures to stay on track...
 
The suggestion that the type C starport should provide refined fuel is a good one though.
I would say type D starports would have refined fuel. Refining hydrogen is TL4 capability after all.

And Type E should have some sort of facilities, not just "bare rock" like the book says. Otherwise, it would simply be type X.
 
A world of population code 0 could have up to 9 people. And, unless the TL is sub-A as well, a type-A starport would have at least some robots. 9 people can manage robots. A type-A does not have to be busy.
 
I would say type D starports would have refined fuel. Refining hydrogen is TL4 capability after all.

And Type E should have some sort of facilities, not just "bare rock" like the book says. Otherwise, it would simply be type X.

A type E would be akin to, say, iliamna VOR... a nav aid and a landing strip, plus a windsock.

A Type D would be some form of fuel ensured - not of need refined. Just a guarantee that there is fuel.

Here's the thing - not all the stuff a port grants/needs is listed in the ports table in the book. Some of it's buried in the trade rules.
In the case of MGT, and ONLY MGT, it's a bonus to the ease of finding suppliers; in other editions, the distinction was the level of broker skill.

CT-MT-TNE-T4
A +4 broker, Ship Construction and repair, refined fuel, payment-capable banking, beacon.
B +3 broker, Ship repair, refined fuel, payment-capable banking, beacon
C +2 broker, refined fuel, beacon
D +1 Broker, unrefined fuel, beacon
E no broker, beacon
X not even a beacon.
 
LBB3 starport description - no mention of reasonable repairs only available to small craft, the reasonable repair facilities are for any ship type.

In your list for CT - MT - TNE - T4 you missed it.
 
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I posted badly.

Aramis, I'm not saying I don't know what the RAW definitions are, I'm saying they make no sense and are broken.

Just based on your simplified definitions above, so the only difference between a Type X and a Type E is some sort of beacon. To me, that is just illogical and broken. And saying a Type D has some sort of brokerage facilities not even a TL4 hydrogen purification plant is just a total break in believability for me.
 
MgT changed (at least from CT) Class C to add a small craft shipyard - but repair isn't explicitly limited to small craft. (I believe the table should have used commas instead of just separate lines.)

But more importantly, MgT gave Class D limited repair.

The CT version provided for some interesting game play decisions...

If one choose (or was forced) to go to a Class C, and use only unrefined fuel (only option in original LLB1-3) then a trip might experience delays due to equipment failure from unrefined fuel resulting in an adventure - especially if they lacked the funds for a repair.

They would have the choice of continuing on, and risking failure in a port (like a D) were if they failed repair themselves could be stranded in a system - even more at the mercy of adventure.

In CT, Class C are the most common and offered only unrefined fuel so that this aspect could play a decent factor in games.

The difference between Class E and Class X, is that Class E would not only have a designated 'spot', but, while it didn't have 'facilities' (which I read as shipyard/repair in the context of CT) and fuel, being a 'frontier' port could include food, housing, gear, trading post, bars, gambling establishments, medical treatment, customs, security, etc.

A broker is just a desk with a guy, hopefully with some experience, who takes a cut. A refinery on the other hand, requires experienced personel (or advanced automation) to operate safely - and an infrastructure to build and support (though, especially the building, wouldn't have to be local).

Just like shipyards need resources to build ships - people can supplemented or replaced by automation - but without raw materials, a shipyard is less likely. World gen only deals with one world - it doesn't speak to the system. So an inhospitable system - i.e. high metals in a good many cases - may make a great place for a shipyard, especially one catching mass driver payloads and asteroid based hulls, but a lousy place for settlers...
 
Well, in my opinion the HUGE difference between the Class E and Class X is the Class E is a surveyed location.

That Class E Starport beacon is placed in an area of bedrock (or similar) that is relatively stable and free from hazards and is suitable for landing a stated size of ship. The beacon will provide directions to the landing area, including approach and departure vectors to allow routine access.

The Class X (non)Starport is a designation that NOTHING has been done in the system to aid landings. The crew is on their own entirely to select an approach vector and landing area. There will be no weather or other hazards mapped. If the crew is careless or untrained they might set down in a swamp and sink... or on a seemingly solid surface that turns out to be fragile and collapses into a sinkhole swallowing up the ship.... or their approach may be over the nesting grounds of a local avian that they startle and fly into causing a crash... or local electromagnetic anomalies mess with the sensors and they fly it into the ground at high speed... or... etc. etc.

...and as noted, because the system has been surveyed and landing provisions made in a Class E it is because (or will create) there is something local of value and that means population in place. While the Class X and total lack of survey and landing provisions is because there is nothing local of value and that means any population may be quite remote from a suitable landing site even if they have anything to trade with.

Fortunately the typical player ship that is likely to be resorting to travel through a Class X system is small and the hazards of landing it in the wilds is far less than trying to land a huge MegaMerchant :)
 
I posted badly.

Aramis, I'm not saying I don't know what the RAW definitions are, I'm saying they make no sense and are broken.

Just based on your simplified definitions above, so the only difference between a Type X and a Type E is some sort of beacon. To me, that is just illogical and broken. And saying a Type D has some sort of brokerage facilities not even a TL4 hydrogen purification plant is just a total break in believability for me.

I disagree.

As Dan notes: X is the lack of any port at all.

E is a beacon and landing area. It's like most Alaskan airports (a marked strip), or many small non-port waterfront towns - there's a boat ramp. Somtimes multiple strips or ramps. It's an expected landing spot.

D is a port with someone selling fuel, and probably a shade-tree mechanic or two available. Probably also has a radio station, and in CT, has a broker who is nearby.

C is a funtional landing port. Small craft shops, fuel, probably controlled airspace. Brokers, plural.

B and A are better versions of C, with bigger repair slips, and interstellar banks, and more brokers.

Extending the ports with a second letter would make a lot of sense, provided pop size affected it -

an AA port should be a major fleet support base - think Port of LA or Chicago-O'hare airport. An EX would be a single small merchant landing pad with a beacon...
 
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Extending the ports with a second letter would make a lot of sense, provided pop size affected it -
Really like that!

I would go so far as to say separate fuel as well ... so one can refer to Triple A ports! :D

[MTUs also have wild fueling (free) and self-serve (non-tonnage simple access charge). Perhaps DM (ala TL) Starport Size based on Trade Codes (which accounts for Pop), with Fuel DM based on Type, Hydrographics and Trade Codes (and/or Starport Size)...]
 
...And saying a Type D has some sort of brokerage facilities not even a TL4 hydrogen purification plant is just a total break in believability for me.

TL4?

Speaking as someone who has actually done propellant conditioning, including LH2, I think I'd insist on late TL6 at least, preferably TL7-8 or later. The stuff needs a fair bit of circulation through filters to be what you'd want it to be, and it really doesn't treat filters well. Especially when you need a lot processed.

The stuff Dewar made is nothing I'd put in a rocket or other mechanism I'd bet my life on. ;)

So show some love for those guys who sit there watching gages while the stuff circulates. They're worth more than they're paid, I guarantee it. I always tip 'em in port. :)
 
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I guess that I visualize starports as a cross between sea ports and airports, as well as what I encountered in the Solomon Islands.

A Class A starport has the ability to build new civilian ships, and may have a facility capable of building warships, It is able to do major repairs on all civilian merchant ships and some repairs on military ships, unless it has a warship construction facility co-located with it. Typically, it will have an orbital port in geo-synchronous orbit over it to handle very large and non-streamlined ships. It will have the ability to handle and process large quantities of cargo and passengers without major slowdowns.

A Class B starport has the ability to build space ships and do major repairs on civilian merchant ships. It may have a small military building facility for system defense boats, in which case it can perform moderate maintenance and repair of military ships. It can handle and process large quantities of cargo, but may not have an orbital port as well.

A Class C starport has the ability to do major repairs on small, less than 1000 ton, civilian ships as long as they are streamlined and can land. It does not have the capacity to repair warships but can handle replenishment of life support systems and consumable supplies. It has some cargo warehousing and handling capacity, and one or two passenger hotels on the starport area. It will not have an orbital port.

A Class D starport has no repair capability, but is capable of furnishing replenishment of life support and consumable supplies. It will have cargo receiving and shipping personnel, but no warehousing or cargo handling on the port area. Passengers have a small terminal for waiting.

A Class E starport has customs, immigration, and medical clearance personnel representing the local government (all other ports will have this as well). It will have a designated landing area, probably a concrete pad, and at least one cargo broker will be available. No significant supplies can be furnished. Cargo and passengers are hit and miss.

A Class X landing site means that you are looking for the best place to set down, hopefully near something worth while.

The last three, D/E/X, approximate what you would encounter in the Solomon Islands. At Honiara on Guadalcanal, you have a dock for the port area, no repair capability whatsoever for anything more than an outboard, but you can get supplies and fuel (expensive fuel). The airport, Henderson Field, has a small terminal building, some refueling capability (a couple of fuel tankers), and is basically still the World War 2 bomber strip, hard packed coral, no concrete.

Gizo, further up the chain in the Solomons, in the New Georgia group, has a dock, with a hotel about 100 yards away. The customs, immigration, and medical clearance officer is one in the same person, and hopefully will be there when he is needed. No ship diesel is available, and the small air strip is located on an adjacent island in the harbor, with refueling done via 55-gallon drums and a hand pump. (That really freaked out a couple of ladies in the National Geographic group. Personally, I thought that is was pretty cool,) Cargo, passengers, not really, except for empty 55-gallon drums, lots of those, and the odd outboard to be taken to Honiara for repair. Did have some really nice bananas, which unfortunately lasted only 24 hours after being picked, really good rock lobster, and lots of coconuts. Plenty of fresh fruit for the crew, but not really anywhere near enough for an export trade.

And then there was Ringgi Cove. Big enough to put a small ship in, and that was it. If no native available in the area with dugout canoe or launch, break out the ship's boat and head to shore. No navigation lights at night, and it gets really dark there at night, without civilization light pollution. A classic Class X starport.

Edit Note: A world may have more than one starport, but only one Class A. If it is large and has multiple continents, you might have some additional Class C and Class D starports around.
 
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Well, in my opinion the HUGE difference between the Class E and Class X is the Class E is a surveyed location.

That Class E Starport beacon is placed in an area of bedrock (or similar) that is relatively stable and free from hazards and is suitable for landing a stated size of ship. The beacon will provide directions to the landing area, including approach and departure vectors to allow routine access.

The Class X (non)Starport is a designation that NOTHING has been done in the system to aid landings. The crew is on their own entirely to select an approach vector and landing area. There will be no weather or other hazards mapped. If the crew is careless or untrained they might set down in a swamp and sink... or on a seemingly solid surface that turns out to be fragile and collapses into a sinkhole swallowing up the ship.... or their approach may be over the nesting grounds of a local avian that they startle and fly into causing a crash... or local electromagnetic anomalies mess with the sensors and they fly it into the ground at high speed... or... etc. etc.

...and as noted, because the system has been surveyed and landing provisions made in a Class E it is because (or will create) there is something local of value and that means population in place. While the Class X and total lack of survey and landing provisions is because there is nothing local of value and that means any population may be quite remote from a suitable landing site even if they have anything to trade with.

Fortunately the typical player ship that is likely to be resorting to travel through a Class X system is small and the hazards of landing it in the wilds is far less than trying to land a huge MegaMerchant :)

Hmm. The Zhodani Core Route's Barren Area has all worlds with "E" starport code. That source (Clifford Linehan) defines "X" as being a place where nobody's allowed to land, but that clashes with most definitions.
 
That's the danger of fanon, it often includes the authors own preconceptions of how the rules are interpreted, and stuff that isn't in the rules as written has a habit of creeping in.
 
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