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MT Only: Starship Combat : how to ??????

Hi, I'm new on the forum...
I played MT a long time ago for long, but always wonder how to use and play starship combat ( and vehicles ) system. For me ( and players ), it always remained a total mystery. It seems that listed dommages of parts (hull, etc.. ) are listed when we create ships, but nowhere appears in combat...there only is a random table which could provide explosion ( rarely ) and parts disabled.
So, if you fight a huge 70000 tons against a 200 tons ship, it seams that there's no difference to destroy both the same way...
So, we played MT with a good part of Star Wars setting and used Star Warriors , after using Mayday! that we didn't really liked, 'cause too far to adapt from CT to MT ...
Maybe I am wrong, but it is very strange... I would like to find someone explaining all this to me !!! I really need HOW TO use damage points of parts of ships (listed for example xxx/yyy for hull damage points)...

Thank you all , I'm new in the forum , didn't see any "hello" thread anywhere , so I did it there !

(Please, sorry for my english , I'm french ! So, sometimes I can seem a bit awkward ! )
 
Welcome aboard :)

There are two ways to do ship combat in MT.

One way is to use the rules in the Referee's Manual to move ships around a board from square to square, and use to hit rolls and damage based on the fusion of the MT task system and High Guard presented. This gives results very similar to High Guard.

A better way to do things, at least at the PC scale of things. is to use the rules for vehicle combat in the Player's book - all of the stats you need for ship weapons are there, and you can then damage the components you spent hours designing into your ships :)
 
Do you understand the personal combat system, most especially interrupts? If so, vehicles will be a snap. If not... I'll start there.
 
Let's start with the in-the-book ship combat system.
Disclaimer: I never use it anymore. Haven't in almost 25 years now. Why? because of the non-newtonian movement, and that it's based upon HG...

All those UCP ratings? This is the place they get used.

At Start of Combat:
  • determine Tactics Pools.
    • Each Ship: total the ship tactics levels on the bridge
    • Fleet Pool: total the fleet tactics for all the captains.
  • determine surprise.
  • establish map. It's intended to use square grids of 25,000 km. it's acceptable if one thinks of it as combat at orbital velocities in low orbit, and no one being willing to risk high relative speeds.

Each turn
  1. Refresh the tactical pools.
  2. Initiative - highest fleet tactics pool goes first.
  3. Activate 1 ship on the initiative side. It moves up to its G-rating in squares. It may fire at any point along its move. All effects are immediate. Each battery may fire once.
  4. The side with the next highest initiative activates one ship. Same as #3.
  5. Repeat #3 and #4, each time activating one ship which hasn't acted this round, until only one side has ships which haven't acted. They then do the rest.
Note that a ship MAY act outside of the normal sequence, by doing an interrupt. So, if The Margaretans move their ship in towards your Dulinorian Battleship, your battleship may attempt to interrupt. If they succeed at interrupting, they take their entire turn before the margaretan ship continues their turn. A different Margaretan ship may attempt to interrupt your Battleship while it takes its turn.

So, let's say a BB (D1), 2 CA's (D2 & D3), and 3 DD's (D4 to D6) on the Dulinorian side, and 4 CAs (M1 to M4) and 6 DDs (M5 to M10) on the Margaretan side. The Dulinorians have a 7 fleet pool (2 on the BB, 1 on each other), and the margaretans a 4 (1 each on the CAs, none on the DDs)... For simplicity, everyone is 5G agility 5.

They start in this formation:
D1
. D2 D3
. D4D5D6
.
.
.
.
.
. M5M6M7M8M9
M1M2M10M3M4

Dulinor goes first D4 moves down 3 spaces, and M6 tries to interrupt. Nat 2 - they fail. D4 continues one more space, M5 attempts to interrupt, and succeeds.
M5 begins their turn. They move one forward, fire everything at D4, then move 4 more forward​
D4, rather crippled now, continues their turn, firing their spinal upon M6. Lucky hit, BOOM. M6 dies.
M6 would go now, if they lived. Since they didn't, The Margaretan player picks a different ship. Note that any Dulinorian ship EXCEPT D4 may interrupt. D1 tries, succeeds, as M2 charges forward.
D1 moves in, and just before decalring fire,
M7 interrupts and moves forward, when ...
d6 interrupts and moves forward, shoots, and mostly misses
M7 continues forward and
D3 interrupts, moves forward, takes out the spinal on M7​
M7 finally ingood position, shoots, doing little to D1​
D1 now finishes, obliterating M7 and M6​
So, finally, D4 gets to finish their turn.
Margaretan player picks M1 to go next.
D2 goes
M8 interrupts
No more dulinorians, so M9 and then M10 go.


I'll detail hit proceedures in a later post. Let me know if that much helped
 
Hi !

Hi guys !

Thank you for your answers !
Aramis, thank you for your explanations !
I will wait to read your explanations, you all, for the hit ( and damage system that puzzle me - I need true damage points ! ) system.

Thanks again !
 
Thank you all , I'm new in the forum , didn't see any "hello" thread anywhere , so I did it there !

(Please, sorry for my english , I'm french ! So, sometimes I can seem a bit awkward ! )

Wellcome aboard. This is the closer thread to the one you ask to say "hello" (At least AFAIK):

http://www.travellerrpg.com/CotI/Discuss/showthread.php?t=1728

Welcome aboard :)

There are two ways to do ship combat in MT.

One way is to use the rules in the Referee's Manual to move ships around a board from square to square, and use to hit rolls and damage based on the fusion of the MT task system and High Guard presented. This gives results very similar to High Guard.

MT:RM ship combat is quite problematic in fact...

  • Movement is not according to newtonian laws
  • Unlike CT:HG, most ships have low agility (if at all)
  • Use for most character skills id not clear

A better way to do things, at least at the PC scale of things. is to use the rules for vehicle combat in the Player's book - all of the stats you need for ship weapons are there, and you can then damage the components you spent hours designing into your ships :)

This also has several problems. As one square is 25000 km and maximum range is among Planetary (KK 5-50 for Energy Weapons) and Far Orbit (KK 50-500), I'll asume most combat is fought at those distances.

Most space rated weapons (as per table in PM page 80) have attenuation 5, increased to 8 as per table in RM page 23, so they will have its pen value halved.

Assuming ship's tables are treated as fire controlled weapons (PM page 72)...

  • Weapons from TL 11- cannotfire at those distances (as their máximum range is regional)
  • For weapons TL 12+, table only reaches up to continental (5 KK), where hit is imposible.
  • So, let's asume any hit is imposible (so needs a 19+ to hit). Of course, DMs for skill, and tactics may be used (if you have enough of them). Not sure about other DMs (computers? Agility?)

Assuming a hit is achieved:

  • Blasers and Plasers under TL 13 will achieve a zero penetration hit, so producing 10% its damage (50-75 hits), modified by success (as per PM page 70-71) all in superstructure (I guess hull)
  • Energy weapons and Plasers-13 will have pen in the 40-52 range (low penetration), so inflicting 50% damage (400-450 hits), again modified by sucess. Element hit should be rolled (though not sure in which table, as the one in PM page 74 is not fully adequate)
  • PAs have penetration rate x 250 at planetary range and rate x 125 afterwards, so inflicting hi penetration hits, so full damage (2000 hits)
  • (Missiles are not in this table and I don't find them right now)

A ship can sustain 90 hits/100 dton in the hull to have it inoperable, and 225 hits/100 dton to be destroyed...

So, a 200 dton unarmored ship (a Beowulf, yact or Safary ship. IMHO the typical players') can sustain about 4 hits from lasers (other than Plaser-13) or 1 from Plasr-13 or energy weapons before having its hull inoperative, and about 9 laser hits, 2 from Plasers or energy weapons or 1 from a PA to be destroyed, and any hit affecting other elements of the ship will destroy it outright.
 
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thanks !

Thank you !
Whoaah , I think I need to dive again into those f.... rules !!! I think I understand some of what you explain , surely not a lot about damages, but I will read again the book(s). I have Classic Traveller rules , High Guard ( different a bit , the two ones ) and of course Megatraveller , the one I used , with different rules too !
None where clear for me !
I understand you all made your own home systems with parts of some...
We were bored by these problems, that's why we changed these, even moving to use Star Warriors ( it's true , I swear ! )... We played Star Trek too , this game displaying same problems about starship combat, but I found the excellent boardgame too late ( we didnt played anymore... )
I will carry on listening to your explanations, advices and personal rules eagerly !
Thank you , and I will start again reading all this mess !!! :D
 
States of Detection in MT HG:
A ship can be undetected at all (not on map, special case), detected (on map, location known ±10 million meters), or Located (Scanned), or target-locked.
Detection doesn't tell you anything other than "There is something roughly there, and it's going this fast"

Remember the ranges:
Visual = 1 space (but should be same space - errata item)
Near = 2 spaces
Far 3-10 spaces
Extreme 11-100 spaces (Book says 11+, but again...)
Anything within 100 spaces is pretty much detected just by looking with sensors of near range (=planetary) or better.

A ship gets 1 free sensor action each round.
a ship gets one gunnery action per battery.
Gunnery actions can be used for extra sensor actions.

A sensor action can be to improve from detected to located.
Roll 2d6+Your Computer - (squares range) for the best difficulty listed that you still have sensors for.
So, If using passives, use your Pass Obj Scan. If using acitves, use ActObjScan
Fumble (failed by >2, or failed with nat 2): Not located
Fail by 1: Strong and/or Large target located
Made by 0 to 1: Strong/Large or Moderate/Medium target located.
Made by 2+: Strong/Large, Moderate/Medium and weak/small located
Made by 4+: any target located.

A second action is needed to lock the target and to get detailed answers about it.
Again, 2d6+YourComputer - (range in squares)
Locks use the PassObjPin or ActObjPin, rather than scan.

They have double valued the task. Uncertain means there are two rolls, yours and the GM's.
Yours succeeding gives you a lock, no matter what.
If one of the two succeeds, you get power and tonnage, but NOT type nor other data.
If both succeed, you get type code.

You must have a lock to fire.
Note that sensor status is shared across a side. So, if D1 locks M4, D2-D6 can all fire on M4.

Also, if the Sensor Officer or Gunnery Officer is a PC, they can use their Sensor Ops skill in place of the Computer model number. It's seldom worth it.

Oh, and those tactics pools? you can spend them BEFORE ROLLING to increase your skill or computer model number

Actually Shooting Stuff
Assuming you haven't used all your gunnery actions on sensors...
And you have a lock on the target...

step 1: State the target

Step 2: decide how many batteries are firing. You cannot fire more than you have batteries bearing (which is on the ship data).

Step 3: Resolve one battery at a time

Step 3.1: Roll To-Hit.
Step 3.2: Roll to penetrate. Repeat for each relevant defense
Step 3.3: roll system hit(s)
Step 3.4: resolve criticals, if needed.
Step 3.5: repeat for next battery.

Rolling To Hit
11+ on 2d6 + Your Computer + Range Mod – Target's Def DM.
(You may spend tactics points from the ship's pool or the fleet pool to increase your computer for one shot)
Defense DM is listed on the target's data.
RangeVisualNearFarExtreme
Laser00–1–1
Misile00+1+1
Meson00–2–2
Plasma/Fusion00N/AN/A
Tractors00N/AN/A

Special Cases:
Line Of Sight: If something blocks the line of sight, you can't shoot.

Visual Range Pinpoint Shots: If at Visual range, and you roll at least 2 more than needed, you get to pick which system type is hit. If you roll 4 more than needed, you may pick a critical hit.

Meson Guns: To Hit roll is modified by the to-hit number. This is because it's literally a huge (up to 1/2 km) ball of death...

Spinal Mounts (Rules only include PA and Meson): Target numebr is Routine (7+), not difficult. Also, you get to use agility instead of computer.

Gunners: If a battery's head gunner is statted out, you may use his/her weapon skill in place of the computer number.

Penetration
Once you have rolled to hit and succeeded, you need to get past the degenses.


For each defense screen that applies.
Difficult (11+) on 2d6 +You Computer + Table Modifier – Their computer model.

Beams have to penetrate sand. Beams means Lasers, PA's, Plasmas, and Fusion. Rather than separate tables for Plasma and fusion, they get +2 to penetrate above the table. Look up the weapon factor across, the sand factor down.

Disintegrators and nuclear missiles have to pass the dampers

Missiles (nuclear or conventional) have to pass the sand and the repulsors.

Tractors have to pass the repulsors.

Meson Guns have to penetrate the Meson Screen and have to penentrate the ships configuration.

If you passed all the penetration rolls for the battery, go on to damage

Damage Rolls

If weapon is not a spinal: one damage roll on each allowed table
If weapon is a spinal: Factor-9 rolls on each allowed table

Weapon Type determines which tables are used.
Note that this makes PA's, Nuclear Missiles, Antimatter Missiles, Disintegrators, and Meson Guns doubly nasty: they all roll that many times on each of the two tables

Each damage roll is 2d6.
Long list of mods...
WhatSurfaceRadiationInterior
Factor ≤9 (non Spinal)-6–6–6
Factor ≥A (10) (Spinals)+0————
Armor
Pulse Laser +2————
Nuclear Missile+6+0——
Black Globe/White Globe
[tc=3]AV ≤42: +0
AV 43: –1
AV 46: –2
AV49: –3
AV52: –4
AV55: –5
AV58: –6
AV61: –7
AV64: –8
Etc.[/tc] [tc=3]+6 AV per factor of flicker[/tc]
[tr]

The damage tables on p 101 tell you what gets hit.
A weapon hit kills a number of batteries equal to its rating, until only one is left, then that last one takes a reduction to its rating, instead.
Fuel hits are that percentage of fuel. On small ships, the minimum loss is 10 tons of fuel. (Ships with less than 333 tons of fuel always lose 10 tons on any fuel hit.)
A drive hit reduce that drive's rating.
A computer hit reduces the computer number.

Critical Hits: Look Up the (p 93) Critical Hit Distribution number. Subtract it from the weapon's UCP Factor. The remainder is the number of critical hits rolled and also the number of armor factors lost.

Note that a Factor 3 vs a 100T ship is going to be 2 crits - it's possible to get a single turret up to factor 4... enough to do a crit ona 400Td merchant. Crits are what really kills...
All Crit rolls are a flat 2d6 on the table on page 94.

Criticals shut down a system.
 
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Just some comments and questions on this

Meson Guns: To Hit roll is modified by the to-hit number. This is because it's literally a huge (up to 1/2 km) ball of death...

Could you please explain what do you mean here?

Spinal Mounts (Rules only include PA and Meson): Target numebr is Routine (7+), not difficult. Also, you get to use agility instead of computer.

Spinals must be aimed (with the task you say) before rolling TH, not instead of it. See that in page 94 it says "roll the following task to aim a spinal mount before attempting to fire it"

Gunners: If a battery's head gunner is statted out, you may use his/her weapon skill in place of the computer number.

According the rules (again page 94), the gunnery skill level may be used in place of the computer or weapon table DM in the to hit or defensive tables.

See that this proves quite problematic (mostly on the defensive tables), as sometimes the tables modifiers are negative to you, and sometimes are confrontation:

I also find difficult to apply the gunnery skill on MT.

As I had no answer, I repeat here the entry I posted on the thread 'MT missing: LBB 4-7' (page 3, jan 3rd):
In MT RM (p 95) says: 'Gunnery skill (turret/bay, spinal or screens) may be used in place of computer DM or weapon table DM on the to hit and defensive tasks'.

Following this, some questions arise:

- So, if you have gunnery 4 and are on a ship with computer 1, you can use 4 as computer DM. If you're on a ship with computer 6, difference between a guner with gunnery 0 and one with gunnery 6 is null.

- If your character with gunnery skill 1 is firing a factor 3 misile battery against a repulsor 5 equiped ship, can you use your skill 1 in place of the repulsor table DM (-6)? It seems me quite a powerful use of the skill...

- If your character with skill 3 fires a factor 5 meson bay against a meson screen 4 equiped ship whose operator has skill 5, what's the DM? +3 (firer's skill)? -4 (table's DM)? -5 (deffender's skill)?, -2 (firer's skill - deffender's skill)? (after all, it's a confrontation task, but in this case, even having a deffender more skilled than the firers, it's easier to penetrate it). Also, in this last case, having a factor T meson spinal or having a factor 5 meson bay makes no difference on its hability to penetrate screens...

Can someone answer me, please?
 
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Just some comments and questions on this



COuld you please explain what do you mean here?

There is a line of to-hit modifiers by UWP on the weapon penetration modifier tables


Spinals must be aimed (with the task you say) before rolling TH, not instead of it. See that in page 94 it says "roll the following task to aim a spinal mount before attempting to fire it"



According the rules (again page 94), the gunnery skill level may be used in place of the computer or weapon table DM in the to hit or defensive tables.

See that this proves quite problematic (mostly on the defensive tables), as sometimes the tables modifiers are negative to you, and sometimes are confrontation:

ALL the rolls have a confrontation. It's simpler to explain the roll rather than the task.
 
hi again !

All these posts are very interesting for me, and it explains a lot of say...procedures I think badly if not explained in the book.
Your clarifications are cool, for sure , thanks a lot, keep carry on please !!!!
:)
 
All these posts are very interesting for me, and it explains a lot of say...procedures I think badly if not explained in the book.
Your clarifications are cool, for sure , thanks a lot, keep carry on please !!!!
:)

Remember, I've not actually used MT HG in 25+ years.

I instead use the vehicle mechanics... So first, how to damage vehicles.

Open your PM to page 74. Bottom right. There are the vehicle rules, in precis form.
Remember that initiative works just like in ship combat, except that it's one vehicle or squad* or independent character at a time.

Remember: Vehicles have hits ratings for the hull, for the PP, and for each locomotive method. Weapons, sensors, and other devices are simply listed. The formulae in the RM are slightly wrong... multiply them by 10 to get the correct values.§

Simplifying the damage point formulae and including the errata§:
Hull Inop: hull kiloliters/1.5 (= diplacement tonnage * 9)
Hull destroyed: Hull kiloliters * 5/3 (= displacement tonnage *22.5)
PP Inop = PP kiloliters/1.5
PP Destroyed = 2x Inop.
Legs Inop: number of legs * legs kiloliters/7.5
Wheels Inop: wheels kiloliters / 3
other locomotion inop: kiloliters/1.5 (=displacement tonnage * 9)
Any Locomotion destroyed: 2x it's inop.
Everything else: inop=1. Destroyed not normally tracked.

the table reads:

rollMain tableSubtable 1Subtable 2Subtable 3
1SuperstructurePower PlantDeviceLocomotion
2CrewPower PlantDeviceLocomotion
3CrewPower PlantDeviceLocomotion
4Subtable 1Power PlantDeviceLocomotion
5Subtable 2Power PlantWeaponTurret
6Subtable 3ComputerWeaponTurret/Limb


When you hit a vehicle,

Step 1 - usual to hit rolls as per personal combat.
Step 2 - Figure damage in hits as normal based upon the Pen, Atten, Damage, and to hit roll level.
Step 3 - Figure out where that damage goes.

Step 3 is the place where people get lost.
It's also pretty poorly worded.

Key Principle: EVERY HIT does damage to the hull's rating, AND something else.
Superstructure: hit the hull only.
Crew: one crewmember takes it
Power Plant: the powerplant takes as much damage as the hull
Locomotion: one method of locomotion takes as much damage as the hull. †
Computer: On a robot, the robot's brain is toast. On a ship, one computer is disabled.‡ ✦
Device: One non-weapon non-computer device installed is taken out. ✦
Weapon: One individual weapon system is taken out.✦
Turret/Limb: Special case...
  • If vehicle and has one or more turrets, the turret is rendered inoperative
  • If a vehicle, and has starship type turrets, the whole turret (and its weapons) is rendered inoperative
  • If a starship, damage a bay.
  • If a robot, take out a limb.

Effect of Inop ★:
  • Hull: Enough damage that nothing is powered.
  • PP: power plant goes out. If it has batteries, they should be a second powerplant with a separate hits rating... If no power plants remain operational...
    • Grav Vehicle: now falling. Crash with ground if at NOE. Fall (at speed plus additional from fall) if higher than NOE & crash
    • Maneuver Drive: see Grav Vehicle
    • Rocket: no direct effect, but no more steering unless mechanical controls
    • Wheeled: coasting to a stop, no maneuvers unless controls are mechanical
    • Airplane with mechanical controls: gliding
    • Airplane with linked or dynamic controls: crashing
  • Locomotion: that system no longer works. If legs, may fall.

*to use squads, you need the referee's companion.
§ It's errata originally in the Ref's Gaming Kit.
† It's not clear in the rules, but each method of locomotion should have separate hits ratings. So, if you build a fast ground car with a slow grav backup, it has TWO locomotion systems.
‡ Some of us houserule this to give each computer a hits rating.
✦ I tend to roll a mishap on as many dice as the hits, and use the damage levels to equipment, but that's a houserule. It's one, however, that I learned from someone else. For computers tho', I use Model # as the inop, and destroyed as 2x that.
★ This is on the border between house rule, rules interpretation, and common sense.
 
Thanks for the synopsis on sensor rules. I'm trying to figure out a way to use Mongoose ship combat but with the better sensor/comms rules from MT.
 
Thanks for the synopsis on sensor rules. I'm trying to figure out a way to use Mongoose ship combat but with the better sensor/comms rules from MT.

MgT doesn't have a power output to be used as in MT (mostly for the neutrino scans), nor as detailed sensors (in the way of which sensors a ship has) as MT.
 
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