Starship Scale in Campaigns

[BardicHeart]

As I've said elsewhere, I'm essentially still fairly new to Traveller. I've been carefully and systematically going back through all the PDFs I've bought and re-reading them. Right now I'm finishing up with the various CT books.

Here's my question.

Initially in book 2, starships went up to a maximum size of 5000 dT. However, in book 5 (HighGuard) this goes up to 1,000,000 dT (possibly larger, class Z is listed as "reserved").

Is it known whether this was always intended to be the case or were starships (literally) expanded later?

I've seen a number of ships in the 1,000 to 2,000 dT range listed as battleships, cruisers, etc. But compared to the much larger battleships and cruisers presented in other books, these 1,000-2,000 dT designs seem more like a ships boat than a cruiser. How do you handle or explain this in your TU? What I mean to ask is... if the larger designs are actual cruisers, battleships, etc. then what are these other ships, who uses them, what function do they serve?

I'm trying to sort out how and where things like this fit. If there are 200,000 dT cruisers out there, then a 2,500 dT "battlecruiser" isn't going to be very useful. But since they do apparently exist, I'm trying to account for how and why they do exist, what they are used for, and by whom in a way that is plausible.

Figured I'd tap all you veterans for some ideas instead of reinventing the wheel.

 

[mike wightman]

Hi,

what you have hit upon is the difference between the small ship OTU and the large ship OTU.

In CT pre HG 5000t was the ship size cap - most pc ships would be in the 100-400t range.

The folks at GDW were obviously impressed by the Star Destroyers and the Death Star so when they produced their navy supplement - High Guard - suddenly the OTU was filled with 50kt cruisers, 200kt battleships, and the odd 1000kt dreadnaught

Unfortunately most of the early adventures were published for the small ship OTU - hence the Kinunir being a battle cruiser (which actually ties in with Mayday).

The small ship OTU and the large ship OTU are the first of many paradigm shifts you will find as you plow your way though 30 years of material.

Best way to deal with it is to ignore the Kinunir designation of battle cruiser and to ignore the battle of the two suns escapade.

Alteranatively you can ignore High Guard for your version of the OTU and stick to the LBB2 small ship paradigm (this is my favoured option usually, but I love playing with High Guard)

 

[BardicHeart]

Thanks for the reply. I had wondered if it had had anything to do with Star Wars. Makes sense, people were very enamored with that kind of thing then (some still are) and it may simply have been GDW responding to market demand.

I think I would prefer the smaller ship scale myself. For one, drawing deck plans for a 500,000 dT ship is... ugh. I've got deck plans for a ship that would be about 10,000 dT and that thing is HUGE. You need a good sized room to lay out the full deck plans for miniatures. And yes, I like deck plans, I like a ship the crew can interract with.

I'm not sure yet which rules I'll eventually settle on using, I'm not at the point yet where I feel I know enough to decide. But, it seems clear later rules all seem to incorporate the larger scale so I may be somewhat stuck with it (though New Era seems to limit the size back down to something more manageable in practice).

If I were to use the larger scale, I'm still scratching my head a bit how to incorporate everything. It makes the smaller ships seem almost useless. Not just in a fight but even for trade... how many 400 dT traders could compete in a universe that may well have 400,000 dT traders. Seems to me the larger ships would simply dominate the market just as you don't see very many 50' cargo ships on the seas (pretty much none), but you see lots of super cargo ships. The larger ships are just more efficient and cost effective, smaller ships get pushed out by operating costs alone, they can't compete. Same for passenger ships... there's a reason there are lots of big commercial jet liners crossing oceans, but small planes tend to be almost exclusively for private use.

Hope to hear more comments, still puzzling this one out for myself. Anyone ever resolved this in their own campaigns?

 

[robject]

If I were to use the larger scale, I'm still scratching my head a bit how to incorporate everything. It makes the smaller ships seem almost useless. Not just in a fight but even for trade... how many 400 dT traders could compete in a universe that may well have 400,000 dT traders. Seems to me the larger ships would simply dominate the market just as you don't see very many 50' cargo ships on the seas (pretty much none), but you see lots of super cargo ships. The larger ships are just more efficient and cost effective, smaller ships get pushed out by operating costs alone, they can't compete. Same for passenger ships... there's a reason there are lots of big commercial jet liners crossing oceans, but small planes tend to be almost exclusively for private use.

Big starships were invented for wargaming, so we could simulate big fleet battles, not so we could destroy any particular campaign by players, nor render their ships obsolete. So while the Major Trade Routes are owned by megacorporate-owned honkin' big jump-4 monstrosities, the minor routes are fought over by regional companies and free traders.

Not that trade is what drives an adventure. It's good enough for many campaigns to say that there are small or frontier or specialized markets for small starships. The real point of the adventure is going to be something else, most of the time.

Put another way: adventures are usually had in small starships, about the size that players could have some control over or possibly own a share in. A Scout ship, run by a player character Scout and his crew and tag-alongs. A tramp smuggler/trader one jump ahead of a crazed patrol cruiser captain. Key positions in a relatively large (1800t) merchant cruiser exploring unknown worlds to seek out potential markets (and land in lots of dangerous scenarios). Etc.

I could be wrong. There may be a number of Starship Trooper-like campaigns for Traveller. But most of the adventures I've seen for Traveller, even after High Guard came out, are for players who hold critical crew positions on a small starship.

 

[BardicHeart]

Ah so its sort of...

Please ignore the BatRon off your Port beam, we are not presently wargaming. For this adventure you're primary opponent with be a 600 dT patrol cruiser... ah... there it is now closing on your aft quarter. Orders Captain?

How much trade drives adventures depends how much it figures in a campaign, you can build an entire adventure around trade, competitors, piracy, big honkin mega corps with their super freighters, etc. I'm still getting a grasp on how the trade rules really work in Traveller but thought it was something interesting to explore. I tend to look at everything... probably in more detail than most would. Its a character flaw, I'm working on it.

Course, a bug war could be fun too.

And yes, I think I prefer the 5000 dT or less scale, just trying to fit all the pieces together.

So basically, a lot of you more or less ignore the big ships then, yes?

 

[kbailey]

ship scale thoughts

This is in the context of LBB2/LBB5 classic traveller.

Ships smaller than 1000T do not work unless sponsored, or engaging in cargo speculation. This makes normal private campains VERY challenging economically, and the players gettin desperate trip themselves up.

Civilians in small ships are not good pirate hunters. They do NOT go around throwing their weight about, for 2 reasons:
1: they don't have much weight to throw;
2: No authority. THIS one they can counter with letters of marque and reprisal in frontier areas when things heat up, or in areas where piracy is a problem.

Players with a clean background (probably not to be found unless very shortly after honerable discharge, the way these things usually go) with a more limited sort of letter of marque and reprisal- against pirates. Such ships also find it FAR easier to gain surplus weapons, restricted weapons, and modification (and permits) to mount weapons in excess of what LBB2 permits, both in number and in size.

SMALL military ships do NOT go off alone on missions. Destroyers escort things. Frigattes are in essense police patrol ships, and they stay close to home patrolling the spaceways for emergencies, and the rare occasion when they actually need to settle some's hash- which is usually done with a stiff command on the radio, and a broadside across the bow of missiles armed with flash warheads- pretty, and mostly harmless, but it get's the point across. Frankly, if you're playing with the big boys, a patrol cruser is pretty small stuff.

The smallest thing to go alone on a mission is a CRUISER. Light cruisers are more commonly used due to reduced cost, and they are assigned missions unlikely to get them well and truly up the proverbial creek. They have enough armor to stand up to non nukes, are fairly agile and fast, and carry a small spinal mount- but that's still WAY more bad news than the usual badboy wants to stare into. The sight of a light cruser expressing the Imperial discontent usually gets everyone's attention, as it means navy authority in in on this, they mean it, and something 50 times badder is on tap if this one devlops a bad case of Kenetic Energy Poisoning. The Pucker factor on this is WAY bigger than a patrol cruiser expressing unhappy sentiments from orbit, at least a decimal place bigger. This is where gunboat diplomacy usually is played, with the RARE need to have something more serious show up to drive the point home. And at this scale, a patrolling circulating light cruiser- makes for an interesting campaign.

THAT getting serious out here sort of mission gets a heavy cruiser- or 3, or a no kidding battle ship, and THOSE go out with some escorts, and a couple of tenders. This showing up raise the pucker factor scale by AT LEAST a decimal place. It also tends to have a TASK FORCE on standby call if it's nastier than they expected, and while it is beind mustered the task force will do a lovely job of screwing things up while a fast courier runs back and fetches help (so insure there's a few fast courier scouts in the mix on that task force). GMing this takes planning and detailing the ships and capabilities of the tactical group, and careful placement of the players.

Serious sharp end duty is a full task force, with all from soup to nuts, and specialty ships for details that just HAVE to be handled aright. Beyond that, we are talking a FLEET, and the pucker factor scale just went up several DECIMAL PLACES. The good news is it's not hard to find a place where the players can be slipped in. The bad news is they are NOT in charge.

Don't use a thumb tack for a railroad spike job, and don't swuander heavy iron on lightweight missions, the fleet is perennially under supplied, and husbands its resources carefully.

 

[PFVA63]

Hi

As others have said, when Traveller initially came out ships were limited to 5000 dtons, and from my sometimes hazy memory I don't recall any mention that later books were going to cover larger ships.

I do seem to recall High Guard coming out after Star Wars, and as others have suggested, the size of ships in that book may well have been influenced by the huge ships in that movie.

Sometimes you'll find some people posting here who only play in a "small ship" universe where they limit ships to the 5000 dton limit of the original three books, but many others assume the really large ships exist but that normal adventurers aren't really impacted by them much. Occassionally though you'll see some adventures centered around a fairly large vessel like the "Arrival Vengeance" adventure from Mega Traveller.

Something to keep in mind though, is that even in the original rulebooks, 5000 dtons is not really all that small. Specifically, data that I have found on the modern US Navy LSD 49 class amphibious assult ships (as shown below) have an enclosed internal volume in Traveller terms of about 5200 dtons. So a 5000 dton traveller type ship would only be roughly a little smaller than that in size.

Regards

PF

 

[shadowcat20]

Seems to me ship size would be dependant upon which navy is running them. To build, supply, and maintain a large ship would take lots of capital. Only major worlds or groups of them could do it.

1 to 5 Kton would probaly be planetary navies. Subsectors may control up to 50 KT but the big buggers would have to be Imp ships.

First of all building a tech 14 or 15 warship would take a shipyard of the same level with access to parts of that level. Spinward Marches only has 8 planets of that level and 5 are in 2 subsectors. and one is Darrian. The cost to build large ships would be huge. Look at the efforts the Marches went through to afford ONE more 60KT Azanti High Lightning class ship. The Children of the Marches was to be built only if some of the work came back to the sector to make it.

Another thing is a lot of worlds just could not afford them or a fleet of decent size. It might also worry others if they tried.

As for big merchants ships, only major line worlds with A or B starports would be profitable. A small backwater world could not generate enough income to pay for the fuel or upkeep. So small tramp ships are still needed for most planets. The planets where prices would be higher due to demand. Let alone what company would use a big liner in a small system with little to no protection? Unless they were running a demilled AHL class cruiser with a fair number of weapons left it would not be worth painting a big target on a fat prize ship.

So a very large percentage of ships running around should be under 2 KT with the big boys only showing up in certain areas for specific reasons.

Not to say a random older 100 Kt heavy cruiser with some DD's and DE's for support could not be used to show the flag in a sector. But it should be the exception rather than the rule just for shock and awe.

 

[BardicHeart]

Some other books did develop much larger ships though I don't think they were strictly CT books. I think it was Fighting Ships of the Imperium for MT that had ships going up to 400,000 dT or so which is just HUGE. You're right about just how big 5,000 is.... if memory serves, 400,000 dT is roughly about the size of FOUR Nimitz class aircraft carriers. Having stood on the deck of an aircraft carrier... that is just mind bogglingly BIG!

Even a 2,500 dT ship is pretty big. I guess I might be inclined to be one of those people who plays a mostly smaller scale just because it seems much more manageable and playable.

BTW, thanks for reminding me about Arrival Vengeance, I'd forgotten about that one. So much to read, so little time. :rofl:

Oh and thanks for that lengthy reply kbailey, lots of good ideas and things to think about. I should probably be writing some of this down.

So there's nothing elswhere in OTU that explains the appearance of these larger ships? They're just assumed to have always been around, even though they weren't?

 

[BardicHeart]

More good stuff!

Seems to me ship size would be dependant upon which navy is running them. To build, supply, and maintain a large ship would take lots of capital. Only major worlds or groups of them could do it.

1 to 5 Kton would probaly be planetary navies. Subsectors may control up to 50 KT but the big buggers would have to be Imp ships.

This helps make some sense out of it. So when entering a individual system, the might have a "battlecruiser" of only 2,500 dT... which is part of their system fleet (maybe their flag ship) and the best they individually can come up with. But if the Imperial Navy gets called in, they might show up with a 60k dT cruiser and a couple of 10k dT destroyers. Sheesh, talking about giving the locals an inferiority complex! LOL

Question, who in the system would own these local ships? Local noblity? Local government (assuming the local noblility isn't the government)? I still haven't a good grasp yet of how politics and government in the 3I works yet.

First of all building a tech 14 or 15 warship would take a shipyard of the same level with access to parts of that level. Spinward Marches only has 8 planets of that level and 5 are in 2 subsectors. and one is Darrian. The cost to build large ships would be huge. Look at the efforts the Marches went through to afford ONE more 60KT Azanti High Lightning class ship. The Children of the Marches was to be built only if some of the work came back to the sector to make it.

I'd been wondering about that but hadn't really gotten to it yet. Is there a timeline anywhere that tells us how long the 3I has even had Tech 15? That would also limit how many Tech 15 ships would be flying around. I also wonder how many Tech 12 ships are still in service. They aren't as good but if it still works you don't just throw it away as expensive as ships are (at least I wouldn't think you would).

As for big merchants ships, only major line worlds with A or B starports would be profitable. A small backwater world could not generate enough income to pay for the fuel or upkeep. So small tramp ships are still needed for most planets. The planets where prices would be higher due to demand. Let alone what company would use a big liner in a small system with little to no protection? Unless they were running a demilled AHL class cruiser with a fair number of weapons left it would not be worth painting a big target on a fat prize ship.

Good points, that helps me square those angles more as well. However, the idea of an AHL as an armed merchant "cruiser"... lol... that's scary in more ways than one.

"You WILL buy these beads governor... trust me on this. Tactical, target missile bays 2 and 3 on the governor's palace. Now where were we governor?" :rofl:

Not to say a random older 100 Kt heavy cruiser with some DD's and DE's for support could not be used to show the flag in a sector. But it should be the exception rather than the rule just for shock and awe.

That sounds far more reasonable and balanced.

Thanks for the info.

 

[Spinward Scout]

Something to keep in mind though, is that even in the original rulebooks, 5000 dtons is not really all that small. Specifically, data that I have found on the modern US Navy LSD 49 class amphibious assult ships (as shown below) have an enclosed internal volume in Traveller terms of about 5200 dtons. So a 5000 dton traveller type ship would only be roughly a little smaller than that in size.

(Historical/Factual Note: the ship pictured above is the USS Harpers Ferry - a Landing Ship Dock. It's also a modern descendant of the USS Shadwell LSD-15 - the ship my Dad was on when he was in the Navy and stood ready offshore to deploy Marine Helicopters in case the order was given during the Cuban Missile Crisis. They are mostly open cargo and berthing space (the open 'well deck' extends from aft below the helicopter pad to 2/3rds the way up the ship - it's all open space), for carrying Marines and their large landing equipment (LCMs for carrying tanks to shore and LCVPs for carrying troops to shore - like the boats on D-Day) and helicopters and their maintenance equipment - and probably more comparable to cargo ships or troop transports in the Traveller universe. Finding a picture of a Destroyer or Frigate of comparable weight/displacement would probably give you a better idea of size.)

 

[aramis]

Thanks for the reply. I had wondered if it had had anything to do with Star Wars. Makes sense, people were very enamored with that kind of thing then (some still are) and it may simply have been GDW responding to market demand.

Marc has made note somewhere that SW (A New Hope, AKA Ep IV) spurred the release and success of the game. And influenced later elements. To be honest, the prior SFRPG offerings were, uhm, meager. KSA's Starfaring, TSR's Metamorphosis Alpha, and the earliest drafts of Zocchi's 1978 Star Patrol.

And even the biggest Traveller ships are smaller than the Super Star Destroyer of Empire and ROTJ.

And the Death star is definitely in the size Z range...

 

[shadowcat20]

BardicHeart,

There were AHL Merchant cruisers. 5 were demilled and sold off as surplus to commercial concerns between 1008 and 1038.

A sixth was sold to Oberlindes Lines in 1023 with FULL weaponery including the spinal mount. They got it through some backroom deals. Being as it was a fully armed cruiser they could not use the Emissary (Ex Sparkling Distress) in Imperial space so it was parked outside Imp space and used to trade with the Vargr. Now that would get someones attention.

 

[BardicHeart]

They actually made a merchantman out of some of these.... oiy. o:

I think you just gave my fledgling merchant character something to salivate over. An here I thought a 1,200 dT trader would be awesome to have eventually... then you bring this up. Something tells me he just got a new (possibly wet) dream. :rofl:

Just think how big the bathtub would be for the captains quarters. Bet you could stretch out and really soak in that thing... with room for a friend... maybe two. Man has to have his priorities after all.

And yeah, I bet it certainly altered the outcome of trade agreements with the Vargr... well... maybe kept them honest... mostly.

 

[shadowcat20]

Lets put it this way,

The Emissary never fired its guns in trading missions.

Someone got the point.

 

[robject]

How much trade drives adventures depends how much it figures in a campaign, you can build an entire adventure around trade, competitors, piracy, big honkin mega corps with their super freighters, etc. I'm still getting a grasp on how the trade rules really work in Traveller but thought it was something interesting to explore. I tend to look at everything... probably in more detail than most would. Its a character flaw, I'm working on it.

Course, a bug war could be fun too.

And yes, I think I prefer the 5000 dT or less scale, just trying to fit all the pieces together.

So basically, a lot of you more or less ignore the big ships then, yes?

Many of us have the character flaw of trying to figure out how Imperial economics works, and how much trade goes on (i.e. "a lot of trade" means what?), etc. Most of us don't have much practical experience on how actual interstellar empires work, so we have to fall back on Terran models.

And what that really means is that we fall back on our own view of how things should be. And when we meet on this forum for that topic there are, at times, rather heated discussions.

But yes, I ignore big ships, but acknowledge that they're out there and in use. I prefer to limit their presence quite a lot. Some people limit them more severely (with a few grognards pretending they don't exist at all), while others see a much busier Imperium (GURPS put out a well-made book on Imperial economics, written by an economist. The conclusion there is that the Imperium is a much, much busier place than is comfortable to me.)

 

[rancke]

The folks at GDW were obviously impressed by the Star Destroyers and the Death Star so when they produced their navy supplement - High Guard - suddenly the OTU was filled with 50kt cruisers, 200kt battleships, and the odd 1000kt dreadnaught

My guess is that someone at GDW figured out just how much a high-tech, high-population world could actually afford in the way of military spending and they decided that fleets with hundreds of capital ships were preferable to fleets with tens of thousands of capital ships.


Hans

 

[rancke]

Ah so its sort of...

Please ignore the BatRon off your Port beam, we are not presently wargaming. For this adventure you're primary opponent with be a 600 dT patrol cruiser... ah... there it is now closing on your aft quarter. Orders Captain?

More like "Sure, there are several BatRons and CruRons and a LOT of system defense monitors stationed at Regina. That's why we're not trying to hijack the Golden Behind in Regina System but here in the Whanga System."


Hans

 

[rancke]

Seems to me ship size would be dependant upon which navy is running them. To build, supply, and maintain a large ship would take lots of capital. Only major worlds or groups of them could do it.

Some worlds have a lot of money. If anything, giving them the opportunity to spend it on one squadron of 500,000T dreadnaughts instead of 100 squadrons of 5,000T dreadnaughts improves the odds that there will be some systems without any significant naval presence. After all, when it comes to ruining fun and adventure for adventurers in 200T Far Traders, a 5,000T ship is just as much of a killjoy as a 1,000,000T ship.

The only way you can have a small ship universe be any more freewheeling than a large ship universe is to limit the overall population drastically. And if you do that, it really doesn't matter if it's a big ship universe, because no one will be able to afford to build the big ones.


Hans

 

[HG_B]

Seems to me ship size would be dependant upon which navy is running them. To build, supply, and maintain a large ship would take lots of capital. Only major worlds or groups of them could do it.

1 to 5 Kton would probaly be planetary navies. Subsectors may control up to 50 KT but the big buggers would have to be Imp ships.

This doesn't jibe with what mere countries can now on Earth.