CT Only: Starships & Starport A's & TL

[Supplement Four]

This gets a little tricky...

Bare with me. I'll explain and cite my sources as I go.





MINIMUM TL FOR A STARSHIP?

What's the minimum TL of a starship? From what I can tell, it's is TL 9. Where'd I get that? The TL table on page 87 TTB. A Jump Drive or PP-A or M-Drive A require TL 9.

So, in order to build a starship, you need a Class A starport on a TL 9+ world. Class A, of course, is required to build starships.

Book 5, pg. 20 says that a ship has the same TL as the world where the ship was manufactured.

There are canon examples of TL 9 starships, but I can't find any references to a starship lower than TL 9. Supp 7 shows a TL 9 Type S, a TL 9 Type A2, a TL 9 Type J Seeker.

DGP's Grand Census/Survey set proposes that Class A starports cannot be lower than TL A, regardless of the world TL. It's debatable, though, if those books (as excellent as they are) are Canon sources.

POINT #1: Given this information, I surmise that the lowest TL for a starship in the CT Canon universe is TL 9.






MINIMUM TL FOR A CLASS A STARPORT?

From what can tell, the minimum world TL for a Class A starport is TL 5. Looking at pg. 85 TTB, a Class A starport has a minimum TL 7, but there's a -2 penalty if the world government code is D.

Point #2: This means that not all Class A starports are capable of building starships. A starport must have local logistical support in the form of the world's resources. That means:

Class A starport on a Gov't D world, the minimum wild TL is TL 5.

Class A starport on a TL 8- world (TL 5-8) cannot build starships even though the starport is Class A in other respects. The world doesn't meet the TL 9 minimum for building drives.

Point #3: Class A starports are TL 5+, but starships cannont be built unless TL 9 is reached locally. Not all Class A starports are capable of starship construction.

There are starport class TL minimums provided in DGP excellent Grand Census/Survey books (I believe the minimum for a Class A starport is TL A, but it is debatable issue if those books are canon, so we'll ignore them for this discussion).

Point #4: If what I say here isn't true (that some Class A starports cannot build starships), then it is possible to have TL 5 starships--which breaks all sorts of prior established rules (minimum tech for the creation of drives, for example).

COMMENT: Maybe worlds with Class A starports at TL 5-8 can assemble starships from modular parts imported from other worlds? If so, then this changes what kind of starship is available from Class A starports on these worlds--it limits them to standard designs. Custom building must take place on TL 9+ worlds with Class A starports.





CHANGING THE FACE OF THE SUBSECTOR

Adherence to this detail may change the face of a subsector. The Rigina subsector is blessed with five worlds that have Class A starports.

TL D Efate
TL D Pixie
TL D Boughene

TL A Regina
TL 5 Kinorb

What I've said above would mean that custom starships cannot be manufactured on Kinorb, but standard designs can be built from imported modular sections.

My guess would be a major export from Pixie and Boughene to Kinorb are TL D starship components.

Speculation: A character couldn't hire an architect to build a custom ship on Kinorb, but he could get the standard designs.



Looking at the Aramis subsector, there are no changes as there are only two worlds where starships can be manufactured.

TL 9 Paya
TL B Aramis

Speculation #2: Refs should look at the subsector to determine what TL of vessels are generally present. With only two shipyards in the entire Aramis subsector capable off creating starships, one is TL 9 and the other is TL B. That should mean that a majority of the vessels encountered in the Aramis subsector are TL 9 and TL B vessels (except for Captial ship military craft, which tends to buy from TL F facilities and then have the fleet moved to where it is needed.

There is only one world in the entire subsector of District 268 capable of creating starships.

TL A Binges.

So, shouldn't the majority of the ships encountered in that subsector be of the TL A variety? And, what's the backlog on building a starship a that world?







MILITARY VESSELS

It is said (and Supp 9 would certainly have us believe) that military capital ships are almost TL 15.

COMMENT: If this is true, then there are only 4 worlds in the entire Spinward Marches sector that hold Imperial Naval contracts for capital ships.

TL F Glisten - Glisten subsector
TL F Rhylanor - Rhylanor subsector
TL F Mora - Mora subsector

TL F Trin - Trin's Veil subsector

Speculation #3: The four worlds above must be flush with Imperial Naval contracts. TL 15 ships are probably dense in these subsectors, from current postings, to those coming or going, to surplus vessels no longer in use by the Navy.

Book 5, pg. 20. It says there that the Navy will procure ships in the TL A to TL E range, and from looking at created designs in the supplements, lower tech seems to be reserved for smaller Imperial Naval vessels.

 

[Condottiere]

I'll speculate that Ace Starports strive to be at least technological level twelve.

With a starship, you could make it component by component with possibly much lower for everything else than nine for a monojump drive.

 

[creativehum]

I'm not looking to contradict anything you are saying (I find it fascinating in fact).

But I feel compelled to admit I may be the only person on this board who doesn't think that the Starport is dependent on and severely connected to the world it orbits.

Certainly there's nothing the early Classic Traveller rules to establish this. (Later rules might.) And in my imagination, if a corporation or government or noble house wants an A-class Starport in orbit around a world, then they'll get it done. (My model for this was always US naval bases in the pacific, on far lower tech islands, or British ports in the Indies, and so on.)

Moreover, such shenanigans allow for interesting political situations:

• The Starport exploits the resources, or even the people below, bringing to bear higher tech than the natives of the world possess.
• The Starport draws resources from neighboring asteroid fields or worlds that are not the main world.
• Starports are significant in part because they draw talent and brain-trust to remote worlds and corners of a subsector. The labor and management and engineers are often imported... which can create more stress between the dirtside and orbital citizens.

Note that all of these assumptions (from both my original Traveller and Proto-Traveller points of view) work just fine. The Imperium of Supplement 3 could easily have all the tensions going on. And, in fact, its probably more likely.

Anyway, I wanted to add another thought on this matter. But not to derail it! I find anything that offers limitations interesting, so color me intrigued.

 

[Supplement Four]

I'll speculate that Ace Starports strive to be at least technological level twelve.

I used to think that way as well, until I dug into CT these last couple of days and thought about the Rules As Written.

I was mostly influenced by the chart in Grand Census that says Class A starports are minimum TL A, Class B are min TL 9, and so on.

Recently I noticed all the TL 9 starships that I cite above, and that blew DGP's idea out of the water. Both can't be right. I sided with GDW and official CT game supplements.

(I do still like the Grand Census variable TL method, though, giving a world a different TL in different areas--for example, a TL B desert world wouldn't have a TL B designation in Watercraft. Using the main world TL as a base, Grand Census figures a world's true maximum TL in a lot of areas--getting away from the one-size-fits-all-TL of a standard CT world.)



But you say, TL 12, for all Class A starports.

How is that maintained when the local infrastructure can't support it?

The bigger question is: How can that be possible when TL 9 starships exist in CT?

Where are those starships made?

 

[Supplement Four]

But I feel compelled to admit I may be the only person on this board who doesn't think that the Starport is dependent on and severely connected to the world it orbits.

I can certainly buy that. Above, I ask how does a Class A starport exist on a world without the world's infrastructure to support it.

On the other hand, to support your point, Class A starports exist on airless desert moons and in asteroid belts, too--without an outside infrastructure to support them.

A Class A Starport exists on the TL 5 world of Kinorb in the Regina subsector.





But...

Also consider that page 20 of Book 5 explicitly states, "The technological level of the building shipyard determines the technological level of the ship being constructed," and it provides the example, "A class A starport on a tech level 14 world constructs a tech level 14 ship."

That's pretty straight forward, if you want to run it RAW.

Anyway, I wanted to add another thought on this matter. But not to derail it! I find anything that offers limitations interesting, so color me intrigued.

Me too! Keep your comments coming! I enjoy the discussion. :coffeesip:

 

[Whipsnade]

But I feel compelled to admit I may be the only person on this board who doesn't think that the Starport is dependent on and severely connected to the world it orbits.

You're not. Want to join my twelve step group?

Gray-headed fat man stands and speaks: "Hi. I'm Whipsnade and I believe the rules are a guideline meant to be employed sensibly and not mental handcuffs."

Group responds: "Hi Whipsnade."

And in my imagination, if a corporation or government or noble house wants an A-class Starport in orbit around a world, then they'll get it done.

It's just not in your imagination.

Al Morai maintains private facilities at Roup and Carey which act as Class B ports for the purpose of repairs and fuel for Al Morai vessels. You better believe a bunch of canny traders like Al Morai will make those facilities available for a fee as long as it doesn't effect Al Morai's own shipping schedules.

Seeing as governments can build whatever they want regardless of what type of starport is listed in the UWP and seeing as private groups can maintain private facilities with a different classification than the UWP's starport rating, the idea that the UWP starport is merely the public/open to everyone port isn't too far fetched.

 

[Condottiere]

Sanctioned Starports seem to be part of the Imperium infrastructure, so they may tap into an interstellar supply chain that allows them to maintain a certain highish technology. It certainly would allow an adventure hook if an available merchantmen is chartered for an emergency delivery to one of the remoter starports.

 

[Timerover51]

I'm not looking to contradict anything you are saying (I find it fascinating in fact).

But I feel compelled to admit I may be the only person on this board who doesn't think that the Starport is dependent on and severely connected to the world it orbits.

Certainly there's nothing the early Classic Traveller rules to establish this. (Later rules might.) And in my imagination, if a corporation or government or noble house wants an A-class Starport in orbit around a world, then they'll get it done. (My model for this was always US naval bases in the pacific, on far lower tech islands, or British ports in the Indies, and so on.)

Moreover, such shenanigans allow for interesting political situations:

• The Starport exploits the resources, or even the people below, bringing to bear higher tech than the natives of the world possess.
• The Starport draws resources from neighboring asteroid fields or worlds that are not the main world.
• Starports are significant in part because they draw talent and brain-trust to remote worlds and corners of a subsector. The labor and management and engineers are often imported... which can create more stress between the dirtside and orbital citizens.

Note that all of these assumptions (from both my original Traveller and Proto-Traveller points of view) work just fine. The Imperium of Supplement 3 could easily have all the tensions going on. And, in fact, its probably more likely.

Anyway, I wanted to add another thought on this matter. But not to derail it! I find anything that offers limitations interesting, so color me intrigued.

Most of what you say argues for a minimum size of population for a starport, which if it dependent on the star system that it is in for its raw materials and the manufacture of items like electronics, life support systems, power plants, maneuver and Jump Drives, and contra-gravity lifters, implies a fairly large population. Im my view, a minimum population in the millions.

Comparing it to US Naval Bases in the Pacific implies that the naval bases have the ability to construct ships from scratch, which is definitely not the case. Ship repair for say an aircraft carrier requires a dry dock sufficient to hold the carrier, which are limited in number. Now, if you import large amounts of material, then it might be possible to build ships, but what is the point of that? It is simpler to import the material in the form of completed ships.

If you are thinking of intra-system ships, then you might have a construction base, but again, you are going to need a minimum population to operate the construction base. Think of all of the infrastructure needed to produce the materials used in ship construction. All that represents an overhead in the form of population, and if all you are doing is producing sufficient material for ship production, that is going to be very expensive overhead.

Look at the Real World and see how many countries are producing advanced aircraft or large transport aircraft. There are not that many. How many countries are producing large cargo ships, large passenger ships, or large warships? Again, there are not that many.

 

[Supplement Four]

Al Morai maintains private facilities at Roup and Carey which act as Class B ports for the purpose of repairs and fuel for Al Morai vessels. You better believe a bunch of canny traders like Al Morai will make those facilities available for a fee as long as it doesn't effect Al Morai's own shipping schedules.

Yes, and it is inferred in TTA that Tukera owns and operates the starport there.



QUESTION: When the Starport Authority come on the scene in the game? Was that in CT somewhere--maybe a JTAS article? Or, did that pop up in a later edition of the game?

 

[creativehum]

You're not. Want to join my twelve step group?

:rofl:

(I have never used an emoticon before. But by lord, I did just laugh out loud.)

Sanctioned Starports seem to be part of the Imperium infrastructure, so they may tap into an interstellar supply chain that allows them to maintain a certain highish technology. It certainly would allow an adventure hook if an available merchantmen is chartered for an emergency delivery to one of the remoter starports.

See, one of my main thesis is that you always want the infrastructure of a Traveller setting to not be stable. You want supply chains, and conflicts over resources, and political and social strife in-between what someone wants built and maintained and the reality of the situation.

And you want all this because it provides terrific adventure hooks. That's the point of the setting. What you point out is exactly the kind of stuff I love.

 

[Whipsnade]

... they may tap into an interstellar supply chain that allows them to maintain a certain highish technology

Yet Another Job(tm) for subbies IMTU.

Also, ever wonder how all those empty shipping containers get back to Strip Mine III, Latifundium V, and Laphroaig IX after delivering ore, grains, and scotch to New Pittsburgh?

subbies....

 

[kilemall]

This is where my distinction of LBB2 ships vs. HG can kick in to advantage.

LBB2 ships can be built at any A starport because they are using standard parts built to X engineering standards.

HG ships are tied to TL.

If you like to limit those low tech starports, you can always use the LBB3 equipment tech level drive limits, or the computer limits for jump programs.

And again, is TL base technology generation/support, or economically what can be sustained and therefore is common?

TO use another historical example, the Nevada silver mine towns were not industrial capable locations, but because of the wealth of the mines everything desired could be imported, and many items otherwise only seen in wealthy city sectors was shipped in.

 

[Supplement Four]

See, one of my main thesis is that you always want the infrastructure of a Traveller setting to not be stable. You want supply chains, and conflicts over resources, and political and social strife in-between what someone wants built and maintained and the reality of the situation.

And you want all this because it provides terrific adventure hooks. That's the point of the setting. What you point out is exactly the kind of stuff I love.

Yeah, one of the major points of discussing this stuff is that it makes the game more interesting.

I played the PC games, back in the day, The Zhodani Conspiracy and Quest for the Ancients. In the first game, Conspiracy, everywhere you went was interesting. You had to explore. If you went to a new town, you had to look for shops to rent vehicles, check out where the starport was located, and see what other interesting features where there to explore. No two places were alike.

Then, the game's sequel came out, Quest, and although it has several planets to explore and sometimes several cities on those planets, each city you visited looked the same. To aid the player, everything thing the player would want was always in the same place. The TAS building was always on the right. The library was always in the center of the city. The police station was always in the same spot.

Guess which game was better.

I LOVED Zhodani.

I didn't finish Quest. (I did use it as a Traveller PC generator for several years after that, though--it used the rules as written.)



What we've been discussing in these threads over the last couple of days is....like the Zhodani game. It makes the rpg more interesting. At least, in my opinion.

I like the idea that a streamlined starship with a M-1 drive cannot land on a Size 9+ world. So, how does cargo transfer happen? It makes things creative and not the same--the same everywhere you go even though you are going to worlds parsecs apart.



So, what have we added with this thread? That a starship is created at the TL of the world on which it is built, if that world is TL 9+. If the world is TL 5-8, then the Class A starport, although bad-ass in other aspects, cannot build ships!

Or...you can just say that TL 5-8 worlds with Class A starports can only build standardized designs from imported modular components.





The other idea that I'm trying to get across is that a Ref should look at the Class A starports in his subsector. These are the places, few as they are, where starships are built within the subsector.

Take note of the TL of those worlds with the Class A ports. The vast majority of NPC vessel created for the Ref's game should be at the TL's available.

It doesn't make sense to have a ton of TL 15 vessels, especially civilian craft, when the highest tech level in the entire subsector is TL C.

 

[kilemall]

Yet Another Job(tm) for subbies IMTU.

Also, ever wonder how all those empty shipping containers get back to Strip Mine III, Latifundium V, and Laphroaig IX after delivering ore, grains, and scotch to New Pittsburgh?

subbies....

They ship whiskey and gravdragline shovel parts to the mines, along with caviar, champagne and miner control security systems to the mine owners/governors.

 

[Whipsnade]

QUESTION: When the Starport Authority come on the scene in the game? Was that in CT somewhere--maybe a JTAS article? Or, did that pop up in a later edition of the game?

JTAS #19, "Skyport Authority" by John M. Ford, 1983. While the name changed, the details didn't.

While Our Absent Friend Loren Wiseman's "Champa Interstellar Starport" article for JTAS #7 doesn't mention a skyport or starport authority, descriptions of the port's operation refer to "Imperial officials" while also making clear that LSP activities are separate from the port as a whole.

 

[Whipsnade]

They ship whiskey and gravdragline shovel parts to the mines, along with caviar, champagne and miner control security systems to the mine owners/governors.

At the same volume as the exported ore?

 

[Whipsnade]

See, one of my main thesis is that you always want the infrastructure of a Traveller setting to not be stable.

That's another membership card I can offer you...

Our Absent Friend Hans and I wrangled for decades over my belief that the UWP is a snapshot in time and not carved in stone. Especially the "sociological" parts of the UWP.

 

[Condottiere]

Probably at the same value, after a hefty mark up.

And working girls.

 

[Supplement Four]

JTAS #19, "Skyport Authority" by John M. Ford, 1983. While the name changed, the details didn't.

It's still the SPA - Starport Authority, if you read the article. "Skyport" is just used as the name of the article.

It's career write up. Looks like it uses Advanced Character Generation. The info on SPA is next to nothing.

 

[Supplement Four]

Our Absent Friend Hans and I wrangled for decades over my belief that the UWP is a snapshot in time and not carved in stone. Especially the "sociological" parts of the UWP.

Hmm...I guess there's someone on the other side of each argument.

The UWPs are snapshots in time, indeed. The time units are usually long, though--multiple years or decades.

For example, that Champa Starport article you cite above states that it used to be a Class B starport that was upgraded X amount of years ago.