• Welcome to the new COTI server. We've moved the Citizens to a new server. Please let us know in the COTI Website issue forum if you find any problems.
  • We, the systems administration staff, apologize for this unexpected outage of the boards. We have resolved the root cause of the problem and there should be no further disruptions.

CT Only: Starships & Starport A's & TL

Law Level

Heh...I just noticed something.

I would think that most cultures bar the bigger, more dangerous weapons first before barring smaller weapons.

For example, you'd think that fully automatic assault rifles would be banned first, followed by rifles, then pistols, then knives, and so on, getting less and less dangerous or serious.

The CT table has it backwards. There's No law. Then, it jumps to banning body pistols, explosives, and poison gas. But, you can still walk around with a fully automatic combat rifle!
 
Heh...I just noticed something.

I would think that most cultures bar the bigger, more dangerous weapons first before barring smaller weapons.

For example, you'd think that fully automatic assault rifles would be banned first, followed by rifles, then pistols, then knives, and so on, getting less and less dangerous or serious.

The CT table has it backwards. There's No law. Then, it jumps to banning body pistols, explosives, and poison gas. But, you can still walk around with a fully automatic combat rifle!

I don't think it's the body pistol is banned so much for being small, as for being concealed.. Think of the 1920's paradigm... you could walk down the street with a full auto slung, but a concealed pistol was proof of intent... or being a G-man... and if they had had X-ray machines and plastic guns, they'd have banned the body pistol right after the CBR weapons too.

It's not a Walther PPK, it's a plastic x-ray transparent remake that's similar to the PPK...
 
The UWPs are snapshots in time, indeed. The time units are usually long, though--multiple years or decades.


Depends on which parts of the UWP we're discussing.

The physical bits like size, atmosphere, and hydrographics? Geological time spans if ever.

The infrastructure bits like ports and bases? Years, if not decades.

The sociological bits like population, government, and law level? Especially government and law level? When did the last ship from there arrive?

There's a thread from a couple years back in which I drove Our Absent Friend Hans crazy by laying out a several month timeline that saw a world's port rating flip back and forth between two classifications while playing merry hell with local shipping.
 
There's a thread from a couple years back in which I drove Our Absent Friend Hans crazy by laying out a several month timeline that saw a world's port rating flip back and forth between two classifications while playing merry hell with local shipping.

I'd love to be a player in your game. :)
 
Hmm...I guess there's someone on the other side of each argument.

The UWPs are snapshots in time, indeed. The time units are usually long, though--multiple years or decades.

For example, that Champa Starport article you cite above states that it used to be a Class B starport that was upgraded X amount of years ago.

It varies quite a bit how stable a UPP is.

Population: How fast is it growing or declining? It could change in a decade or it might take centuries. You really need a pop 6+ to have a "real" economy in any case. Below that you just don't have the population to support mass markets, or a diversity in labor.
Substituting robots only goes so far. Robots aren't consumers, just workers.

Hydro, atmos, etc. Geologic scales unless the planet is being terraformed. Then these might change in decades, or centuries depending on where they are and where the terraformers are going with things, along with the TL they're using.
It could also be effected by things like a massive war. Nuking the living .... out of some planet would radically change things for example.

Government and law? That could change with the next revolution, elected government, death of the brutal dictator, or may not change at all for centuries.

Starport quality is the same way. It'd be pretty easy to go from an X to an E and from an D or E to a C. Building a B or A port would take years and lots of investment. On the other side, you could go from an A to a C almost overnight. The government closes the port for whatever reason and it is now abandoned. Sure there's places to land but nothing else.
A good pasting in a war would reduce it from an A or B to an E PDQ.

Technology really depends on how much capital a world can muster up. It takes years, decades, or possibly longer to rise just 1 tech level. For example, if you have a TL 4 world, importing computers and other high technology is pretty useless if you have no one to operate it, no power plants to supply the power for it, and don't even have the energy sources developed to run a power plant if you imported one.
So, first you need to build infrastructure and industries that let you get to a 5. Then you work on 6... etc.
 
That's another membership card I can offer you...

Our Absent Friend Hans and I wrangled for decades over my belief that the UWP is a snapshot in time and not carved in stone. Especially the "sociological" parts of the UWP.

Well, I go even further.

Keep in mind that what I'm about to type is from the point of view of ur-Traveller of Books 1-3, and that later concerns of the Classic Traveller line aren't really of concern to me.

It take Book 3 at its word: The UWP and Main World generation system is there "as a prod to the imagination." It was never intended to provide a complete and incisive classification system. It leaves too much out and zeros in on a few very specific possibilities. (Please note that if you read the first three paragraph's in Marc Miller's essay "Planetary Government in Traveller" from 1982 you'll see he's saying the same thing.)

Yes, yes... later Classic Traveller products would state that the UWPs are, in fact, classifications noted by the in-fiction Scout organization of the Imperium. Now, I think that's a horrible mistake.

First because it undercuts the inspirational looseness of the original intent. As originally designed the UWP was a set of quick notations that the Referee can combine in his head to produce something that he never would have thought of before. He wan't supposed to use them properly... he was supposed to interpret them, both individually and as a group of factors, to create something that made sense on its own.

But now, suddenly, each notation had to represent the same thing from world to world because some fictional organization inside the Referee's game was telling him that these were objective measurements and statements of the world.

Second, as Miller points out in the essay above, the factors are not there to provide a notion as one might find in a World Almanac:
The reason, in reality, is that they are not omitted or absent; the many varied types of government which can be imagined all fit into the basic scheme given in the Traveller government tables. To understand this, it is important to remember just what purpose the government factor is meant to serve. Traveller players and characters are rarely involved with governments on the international and interplanetary level. That is to say, they do not deal with kings or presidents or heads of state; they deal with individual members of broad government mechanisms, they deal with office holders and employees whose attitudes and actions are shaped by the type of government they serve. As a result, travellers are rarely interested in the upper reaches of government; they want to know what they can expect from the governmental structure at their own level. For example, if a group of travellers were to journey across the United States from coast to coast, they would be interested in the degree of responsiveness they could expect from local governments, in how easy the local court clerk would respond to information requests, or in the degree of difficulty that could be expected in obtaining certain licenses. As they moved through Nebraska, the fact that that state has a unicameral legislature would be of little or no importance.

For this reason, among others, labels such as monarchy have been eliminated. Calling a government type “monarchy” would conjure up images of a king and his retinue, but still leaves a lot of information unrelated. Within the Traveller system, such a government could be classified as a self-perpetuating oligarchy (hereditary monarchy), representative democracy (constitutional monarchy), feudal technocracy (enlightened feudal monarchy), captive government (puppet monarchy), civil service bureaucracy, or any of several others. The simple term monarchy becomes nonsense when one attempts to apply it to a widespread classification system.

Another reason for the labels that are provided in the government classification system is as an aid to imagination. The unaided imagination of even the most inventive referee can go dry after generating a few simple worlds. Using die rolls to create the individual factors for planets jogs the imagination, forcing the referee to think of rationales for the combinations that occur. The use of too familiar terms (such as monarchy) can stifle imagination by allowing the referee to settle into old lines of thought.

Of course there are governments that are monarchies. And there are monarchies in nearly endless interstellar civilizations. (At least one!) But that government type isn't listed in the Book 3 options because listing it would not help serve the purpose that Miller had when creating the system.

Third, by nailing down the UWPs of "literal" observations of a planet rather than as a tool for the Referee, we end up in countless arguments about what the Factors "mean" rather than using them for their true intent: To create awesome worlds and share them with others.

And finally, the "literal" interpretation defies the fun to be had when inspired one way or another in ways that "break" the randomly generated UWP but certainly grow from it. Sure, a planet might have a Population of a hundred thousand with a TL of 4. But what if the Referee, after mulling the size, atmosphere, population, government, and law factors decides that the Population refers to a settlement of about 100,000 with a TL of ten with a indigenous population of 3,000,000,000. Why should he not do that if that was what the system prodded his imagination to come up with and he's really excited about it?

Thus, we can have low tech worlds with a city of high tech that manages the local starport, as offworlders want such a starport in this system.

I could come up with gazillion examples. But I think everyone here gets my drift.

I'm not saying everyone agrees with me. I'm sure few do. But if you look at the text of Book 3 (and the quoted passage from Miller's essay) I think it would be hard to dismiss that it is one way of looking at how to read and use the UWP.
 
Second, as Miller points out in the essay above, the factors are not there to provide a notion as one might find in a World Almanac...


Are you sure we're not twin brothers from different mothers?

That's long been one of my favorite passages from the First Three LBBs: The government code in the UWP represents how visitors interact and perceive said government.
 
And again, is TL base technology generation/support, or economically what can be sustained and therefore is common?

I define a world's Tech Level as that level which can be readily produced and repaired on the world with no outside materials required. There is a minimum population for a world to produce the full spectrum of a Tech Level's goods.

TO use another historical example, the Nevada silver mine towns were not industrial capable locations, but because of the wealth of the mines everything desired could be imported, and many items otherwise only seen in wealthy city sectors was shipped in.

In comparing a resource-extraction operation of high-value material to construction of a starship, you are comparing not apples to oranges, but to totally different processes. In Nevada, a miner could be expected to produce somewhere between 250 and 500 tons of ore per year, depending on the rock being mined, as long as you were looking at large mining operations. A miner on his own could be expected to produce far less. In World War 2, to produce a Liberty Ship at an established ship yard required between 400,000 and 600,000 man-hours. Aircraft airframe production was assumed to be one pound of airframe per man-hour, again for a large establishment. It looks like it takes Boeing about 8,000 employees to assemble a limited number of 787 airliners a year, with the components including engines, landing gear, electronics, and interior furnishing being made elsewhere and brought to North Carolina for assembly, indicating a much larger labor force is involved than the 8,000.

Then, a starport is much more than just a construction yard, as you have passenger and freight handling, along with routine maintenance, crew accommodation, and life support supplies and food. All of those people add to the overhead which has to be accommodated, and all of the various groups providing services to them. Consider the number of people employed at O'Hare, Atlanta, Dallas-Fort Worth, or a smaller airport like General Mitchell in Milwaukee. Multiply the employees by a factor of 4 or so to account for families, and you are looking at numbers in the thousands, just for the airport overhead. Quite simply, I do not see any basis for small Class "A" or Class "B" starports in terms of population. As a minimum, I would expect to see populations in the hundreds of thousands, if not the low millions.
 
I used to think that way as well, until I dug into CT these last couple of days and thought about the Rules As Written.
Which edition and which version of additional books? '79 HG is a different beast to '80 HG

I was mostly influenced by the chart in Grand Census that says Class A starports are minimum TL A, Class B are min TL 9, and so on.
First mistake - DGP products are third party interpretations of the rules as written. They are usually very good, but there are significant 'house interpretations' and just plain wrong stuff.

Recently I noticed all the TL 9 starships that I cite above, and that blew DGP's idea out of the water. Both can't be right. I sided with GDW and official CT game supplements.
I believe that every class A and B starport in the Imperium is a TL15 facility. Annual maintenance can be performed regardless of world TL - therefore parts are available right up to TL15.
How is that maintained when the local infrastructure can't support it?
They import it from the worlds that can manufacture it - it gives reason to megacorporation trade lanes and the x-boat routes.

The bigger question is: How can that be possible when TL 9 starships exist in CT?

Where are those starships made?
At any starport A. regardless of local TL.
 
This gets a little tricky...
MINIMUM TL FOR A STARSHIP?
TL 9 :)
MINIMUM TL FOR A CLASS A STARPORT?
In the 3I setting the minimum TL for every starport is TL9 (but I would argue that every Imperial starport is TL15)
World TL doesn't have to be starport TL...
consider this:
Any class A starport has a shipyard which can build any kind of ship, including a starship with jump drives;...
The major restriction on the purchase of ships is money.
Pretty clear LLB2 instruction there.

CHANGING THE FACE OF THE SUBSECTOR
No need - remember that x-boat routes were built on top of major trade routes back in the day. WHy is all that stuff moving from world to world? To service the starports of course.

MILITARY VESSELS
You mean like the TL15 Kinunir built at the shipyard on TL10 Regina?

What you have is the major disconnect between the rules as written that contradict each other and the setting which mixes stuff and adds yet more contradictions.
79 HG has a lovely rule that a ship can be built up to 3TLs higher than the local world using imported parts and a 50% surcharge.
 
Last edited:
Our Absent Friend Hans and I wrangled for decades over my belief that the UWP is a snapshot in time and not carved in stone. Especially the "sociological" parts of the UWP.

That explains the survey part of the Scouts. The sector survey in Imperial Fringe is a re-survey. No point to a re-survey if the UWP doesn't change.
 
Last edited:
But I feel compelled to admit I may be the only person on this board who doesn't think that the Starport is dependent on and severely connected to the world it orbits.
Make that three at least :)

Within the 3I setting it makes sense to me to explain every starport A and B to be able to be up to the equal of the TL of the ruling polity - therefore within the Imperium they can all be built up to TL15 regardless of local world TL.
 
Last edited:
But...

Also consider that page 20 of Book 5 explicitly states, "The technological level of the building shipyard determines the technological level of the ship being constructed," and it provides the example, "A class A starport on a tech level 14 world constructs a tech level 14 ship."

That's pretty straight forward, if you want to run it RAW.
And then you read the following a few lines further on:
A planetary navy may procure ships at any
shipyard within the borders of its subsector
or if you are lucky enough to have it the following from '79 edition
the tech level of the ship may not be more than 3 greater than the tech level of the shipyard. All higher tech level equipment must be imported at 50% surcharge.
Which still doesn't explain how the General Shipyards on Regina (TL10) build a TL15 Kinunir - unless you decouple the starport TL from the world TL or even just the shipyard TL.
 
Last edited:
At the same volume as the exported ore?

Well, I would expect some serious local smelting before the raw stuff shipped- raw ore would IMO be more an interplanetary thing, interstellar shipping would be ingots/coils/rods or other semi-finished higher value products.

And, that's a lot of security control and resentment-building champagne to be consumed.

At a certain point the containers themselves can be exports to a mineral-poor world after they are worn out, or not worth shipping.

Shipping, like nature, abhors a vacuum.
 
Last edited:
I define a world's Tech Level as that level which can be readily produced and repaired on the world with no outside materials required. There is a minimum population for a world to produce the full spectrum of a Tech Level's goods.



In comparing a resource-extraction operation of high-value material to construction of a starship, you are comparing not apples to oranges, but to totally different processes. In Nevada, a miner could be expected to produce somewhere between 250 and 500 tons of ore per year, depending on the rock being mined, as long as you were looking at large mining operations. A miner on his own could be expected to produce far less. In World War 2, to produce a Liberty Ship at an established ship yard required between 400,000 and 600,000 man-hours. Aircraft airframe production was assumed to be one pound of airframe per man-hour, again for a large establishment. It looks like it takes Boeing about 8,000 employees to assemble a limited number of 787 airliners a year, with the components including engines, landing gear, electronics, and interior furnishing being made elsewhere and brought to North Carolina for assembly, indicating a much larger labor force is involved than the 8,000.

Then, a starport is much more than just a construction yard, as you have passenger and freight handling, along with routine maintenance, crew accommodation, and life support supplies and food. All of those people add to the overhead which has to be accommodated, and all of the various groups providing services to them. Consider the number of people employed at O'Hare, Atlanta, Dallas-Fort Worth, or a smaller airport like General Mitchell in Milwaukee. Multiply the employees by a factor of 4 or so to account for families, and you are looking at numbers in the thousands, just for the airport overhead. Quite simply, I do not see any basis for small Class "A" or Class "B" starports in terms of population. As a minimum, I would expect to see populations in the hundreds of thousands, if not the low millions.

I'm on Creativehum's side on this, and plenty of material that says the TL is what is common there, not what is made.

Although with printing tech or the future nano equivalent thereof, that may be a moot distinction.

Besides, like Aramis' example of the production of pants for the Sears thread, assuming TL12 shipyards are like TL7 aircraft factories or ports is quite the leap.

If nothing else, cause robots.

On the other hand, the crunchy part of me goes to modelling every now and again- if everyone will remember, I was suggesting tying Industrial trade definition to making large ships, planets that are not industrial cannot make HG ships.

That went over like a lead balloon.
 
Well, I would expect some serious local smelting before the raw stuff shipped...


Why? There's different levels of smelting and refining. How much smelting of ferric ore takes place in Oz before it's shipped to China?

... raw ore would IMO be more an interplanetary thing...

Why?

... interstellar shipping would be ingots/coils/rods or other semi-finished higher value products.

Why? Among many other colonial powers, the UK tried to forbid iron production in the American colonies and suppressed the mass production of cloth in India. Believe me, I can quote production vs. processing examples across history involving goods and substances ranging from tin to opium to pepper.

At a certain point the containers themselves can be exports to a mineral-poor world after they are worn out, or not worth shipping.

Scrap is a cargo IMTU and a speculative one too.

So is sewage.
 
It's all IMO, cost being a major factor.

For argument's sake, let's say it's 100Cr per ton in-system for ore from belt to smelter facility, 10% of the ore makes usable product.

To get one ton of ingot, that's 1000Cr to the smelter, then another 1000Cr x whatever to get to market, for 2000Cr plus extra jump/parsec rates.

To get one ton of product at the interstellar destination, that's 10 tons of ore at 10000Cr (plus distance).

Main reason why the US consumption and appetite for beef went up after the advent of refrigeration at slaughterhouses and reefer cars- they were shipping finished sides rather then the whole cow.

As for iron shipment from Australia to China, Australia for whatever reason has chosen not to be an industrial power, even though they have the anthracite reserves to do it. I would say that's a cultural choice, and that also with modern shipping we are talking more the interplanetary 100Cr shipping cost rather then 1000Cr of say the sailing age.

Of course the UK built an industrial empire, but I would argue it didn't really kick in until both steam railroads AND ships were built. Traveller is more the sailing age then the steam/telegraph era.


As to the suppression bits you were on about, that's mercantilism. Certainly possible in the OTU with various megacorps and their noble masters/toadies arranging for such laws/arrangements. But not inevitable either, depends on how much interventionism one wants in their interstellar polities for X flavor/McGuffins.

Does tie into the TL issue we are actually on about here- could a world be getting economically depressed by political/mercantilist manipulation to keep a tight profitable non-TL capability so raw materials acquisition costs less?

Your local noble may not be your friend.

Scrap and sewage are good 'shipping abhors a vacuum' cargo types. I could see sewage in particular going from heavy asteroid belts to ag colonies for phosphate sourcing.

In RL containers leave the US bound for China with animal feed, wood and other commodities that normally wouldn't warrant a separate shipment but which get cheap rates.
 
I would say that's a cultural choice...


So there are reasons other than economic ones?

I say "Follow the money..." more often than the next guy, but I also admit exceptions exist.

As to the suppression bits you were on about, that's mercantilism. Certainly possible in the OTU with various megacorps and their noble masters/toadies arranging for such laws/arrangements.

Yup.

But not inevitable either...

Not inevitable, but not unheard of either.

In RL containers leave the US bound for China with animal feed, wood and other commodities that normally wouldn't warrant a separate shipment but which get cheap rates.

In RL sometimes containers carry disassembled containers too. IMTU, a pallet of disassembled containers is a common freight consignment.
 
It's energy, transportation, infrastructure, and cost thereof.

You can build canals and roads, and if I recall correctly, the Romans had factories powered by a series of water wheels.

Plus really cheap labour.
 
Back
Top