Starships Versus Tanks

[djg_p]

Hi All,

Been reading all the posts.

From my understanding under TNE (granted, I don't have the books/rules beside me so I might be wrong here), but if the tank gets within firing range of its own guns, the (common small military) starship will be opened up like a tin can. If my memory is correct, there are designs already been published in the "red Regency" book. (Yes .... I have forgotten the name of that book. Shame on me.)

So .... in order to rescue our man on the ground, a front on assult I do not believe will work. An infiltration and extraction will have to be more the go.

Just a thought.

Cheers, Dave G

 

[Tobias]

Originally posted by Scott Martin:
1) The type S scout is not a "civilian" design, and carries fairly high-end sensors for survey work, which just happen to be usable as military sensors.

True. But neutrino sensors and densitometers are, in my opinion and in later Traveller works, scientific sensors and not very useful for targetting. Specifically, I would not credit them with the response times necessary for effective fire control.

2) A Grav Tank carries a multi-megawatt powerplant. This is going to need to radiate a mother of a lot of waste heat, even if the plant itself is 100% efficient.

True, but the plant is still miniscule compared to a starship's.

5) Most Grav tanks are probably not designed to directly engage space targets (Plasma weapons are *crappy* space weapons, and have *very* short ranges. That said, if a scout gets within the engagement envelope of a grav tank it will know it's been in a fight.

Fusion and Plasma weapons are short-ranged, but then again, tanks can also be armed with a nice pulse laser.

If it were me I'd comm the (probably mercenary) commander of any high tech forces in the area and tell them that any units in grid square "XXX" will be subject to orbital bombardment for the next 48 hours: clear out or suffer the consequences. This is *very* Traveller IMHO, and it would certainly be in a merc commanders best interests to not throw away his units for no gain.

Bombardment with what?
An X-Ray Laser is a lousy weapon for firing into an atmosphere so you can downright forget staying at far orbit
A missile, optimized for space combat, will have serious trouble entering an atmosphere.
Kinetic Kill weapons are a possibility, but are more useful for destroying civilian infrastructure than mobile military assets.

Of course, Meson guns and specialized air-to-ground ordnance will be helpful - but a Scout/Courier will hardly have access to those.

Regards,

Tobias

 

[Scott Martin]

Hi Tobias

The "Canon" (TNE) scout uses a variable frequency laser, not an X-ray laser. Orbital bombardment *is* an option.

The fact that most of the Imperial fleet (based on the selection in Brilliant Lances) uses this type of laser instead of X-Ray lasers probably tells you a bit too much about the 3I's target priorities...

I was mostly trying to point out that any option involving Big Gun shooting would not have a lot of guesswork regarding the "finding the target" equation, so it really breaks down to the scout using its range advantage to engage in a battle of attrition, or an "Eggshells and sledgehammers" gunship duel.

If I was on the crew my vote would be diplomacy, bribery or stealth (Cr 200,000 doesn't buy a whole lot of starship repairs...)

Is there any news on how that little adventure is turning out? If it's in a weekly gaming session I'd expect them to either bea fair way into rescuing their comrade, or needing to be rescued by their comrade

Scott Martin

 

[mike wightman]

Certain x-ray frequencies can penetrate much more air than others, and if it is a continuous beam it will burn the air out of the way to the target eventually.
This process could be speeded up by firing a visible wavelength laser slightly ahead of the x-ray to displace the air and grant the x-laser greater penetration.

 

[selunatic2397]

Hi Guys! My group never did think of orbital bombardment, They did watch a whole lot of WW2 war movies. This led to a 2 ship attack/rescue involving a scout and a far trader. The scout was armed with a triple turret mounting 2 beam lasers and a missile rack. The far trader had a pair of doubles mounting 2 pulse Lasers each.

The scout swept in at 2g's trying to get the attention of the Death's Head Hussars and their grav tanks....he did. I based the tanks on 10 ton fighters for a fast and dirty combat and he actually did take out 3 of the 5 tanks he faced. The last two scored some hull and fuel tankage hits which wouldn't have mattered if he was up in nice clean vaccuum. Our stranded hero was now engaged in a time honored battlefield tradition...looting! He asked me what a "remittance voucher" was. when I told him via a note, he also via note said he was trying to get more by any means possible and heading for the nearest space port. Unaware of their comrade bugging out the far trader did try the stealth option by sneaking at noe but was taking so much small arms fire that, while unharmed,, were getting really mad. They began to rake the ground targets with their pulse lasers while still heading for the building the hero was supposed to be sitting on.
The scout was now much slower due to the hero kindly informing me of what an unstreamlined air frame would do at high speeds, and trailing a trail of flames. The Hussars had their last 2 tanks play pop up and fire games with him scoring another hit on his engineering [jump drive] and another fuel hit. Out of nowhere he declared that he was trying to ram them. Taken aback by his tactics I had them scatter but regroup and attack again. This time I scored a natural 12 and got a critical hit on his power plant...I graciously let him bail out. The hero and the scout actually managed to link up and armed with 3 remittance vouchers between them are trying to get to the now totally locked down imperial starport and argue with marines for passage inside.
The far trader did get to the building unscathed, but found the observation deck deserted except for a newscrew from the Traveller's Aid Society. Thinking fast they popped out and screamed "We're here to get you out! Get in! Get in!" Well, I rewarded their creativity by having the newsies pile in, and by some miracle they made it to 100 diameters intact and jumped safely for home.
The hero and the scout are waiting for next session to see if I arrest them for desertion, looting the dead, or willfully destroying a deattached scout ship. Or maybe even let them go.

Thanks for all the help guys!...any suggestions for our hero and the scout?

 

[Tobias]

Originally posted by Scott Martin:
The "Canon" (TNE) scout uses a variable frequency laser, not an X-ray laser. Orbital bombardment *is* an option.

If you tune the laser to a frequency useful for orbital bombardment, at the same time you put yourself into range for ground-mounted lasers. Furthermore, even using TNE's "gravitic focussing", lasers are decidedly unimpressive in penetrating atmospheres. In fact, you would probably have to enter the atmosphere to do serious damage.

I was mostly trying to point out that any option involving Big Gun shooting would not have a lot of guesswork regarding the "finding the target" equation, so it really breaks down to the scout using its range advantage to engage in a battle of attrition, or an "Eggshells and sledgehammers" gunship duel.

The scout, assuming any of the defending vehicles is armed with a laser, has no range advantage. None at all. I do not see how it has a detection advantage either. A spacecraft skirting the atmosphere is not that difficult to detect.

Regards,

Tobias

 

[MrMorden]

This is a great conversation, I am really enjoying all the comments.

IMTU, A single grav tank would probably be quite outclassed by a Type S or better. The problems for the tank are as follows:

1) Weapon power disparity. An energy weapon in the 250-500MW range is just going to dominate one in the 10-100MW range.

2) Size. As noted, a typical spacecraft has a lot of empty space to it. A hit that penetrates will often not do major damage, whereas the tank can't ghet penetrated and NOT have big problems.

3) Maneuverability disparity. The tank can move anywhere up to low orbit, but the Type S can run circles around it in speed, so the scout can essentially pick what angle to approach/attack from.

4) Range disparity. The Type S can attack from beyond the range of the tank, even in atmosphere. IMTU a ships laser can adjust frequency to minimize attenuation, so you're still looking at perhaps hundreds of kilometers in range, and certainly far beyond the tanks weapons.

 

[Hyphen]

Dear Folks -

A large part of the reply is "it depends on the ruleset".

MT, for example:
</font><blockquote>code:</font><hr /><pre style="font-size:x-small; font-family: monospace;">Name: Beam Laser-8 Y-Gun-13
Pen/Atten: 73/7 71/5
Dmg: 50 30
Max Rng: 1250 km 21 km
VDist up to 3km: 73 71
SubR to 50km: 73 59
Reg to 500km: 65 --
Cont to 5000km: 55 --
Auto Tgts: -- --
Dngr Spc: 9 54
Sig: Hi Hi
Recoil: Low Hi</pre>[/QUOTE]Scout ship armor: AF 40
Tank armor: AF 40 (I''l be kind and assume one of those Trepida's with the ridiculously low AF.)

A laser-armed Scout can damage the tank at continental ranges, while the tank has to be within 21 km to even hit the scout.

However, if the tank had better armor, say AF 75, then the ship won't even scratch it (according to standard rules).

 

[mike wightman]

However, if the tank had better armor, say AF 75, then the ship won't even scratch it (according to standard rules).

Not quite
The damage of the beam laser is 500.
So even if the tank has an AF of 75 the laser will still inflict 10% damage on a zero penetration result. 50 points to structure.

How much hull structure does a Trepida have?

 

[Straybow]

I would bet that 21km is a wag based on hitting ground targets with a line-of-sight weapon, limited by local terrain relief.

A tank might have AF 75 on the turret or frontal glacis (or whatever the equivalent is on a Trepida), but not all over. They aren't designed to stand alone. Sure, you can build 'em any way you want but that gets expensive and you don't want it to sink through the crust when the grav powers down.

Then again, I bet a scout would have extra armor on the turret and a few other places as well.

 

[Ran Targas]

^ Okay, look at this subjectively. What is it about a dedicated high-performance, military weapon system going up against a pseudo-civilian utility craft (armed with a low end weapon) that y'all don't get? How many civilian aircraft do you see going toe-to-toe with an Abrams and surviving? We are not talking about a dedicated tank killer attacking a tank, a Seeker is a freaking airliner in comparison. And from orbit, I really can't visualize a lone scout even detecting a grav tank above all the signal clutter on an active battlefield. Even then, once the scout fired once, he'd be dispatched quickly by counter-battery fire; just hanging there while some gunnery-1 weenie lines up his second shot!

All sarcasm aside

, this is like arguing that the Millenium Falcon really had a chance in a billion of landing a single effective shot against either of the Death Stars. Or Skywalker's lightsabre could penetrate AT-AT armor that his starship grade air-speeder blasters couldn't. Sure, it makes a good story but it sure isn't remotely realistic (regardless of what rules you quote).

Then again, maybe all your PC's are uber-munchkins just waiting to turn the tide of a planetary war with their mean triple turret of death!

 

[far-trader]

Or do you mean objectively?

What we are looking at is a dedicated high-performance, military weapon system going up against a foe that is outside it's element and design area. Grav tanks do not seem designed for 3D combat despite that being the description of the role.

As well the Scout is not psuedo-civilian, it is paramilitary. It is not a utility craft armed with a low end weapon, it is a non-combative hardened deep space ship armed with standard military grade weapons of the smallest size, which are still comparitive to those on your military vehicle in both size and performance. Think more naval submarine vessel and less aircraft for a better comparison.

It is in no way comparitive to a civilian aircraft going toe-to-toe with an Abrams and surviving. No it is not a dedicated tank killer attacking a tank either though, but a Scout is not a freaking airliner in comparison.

I don't think the Scout would have any problem detecting and sorting out a battlefield from orbit. It's the ground elements that are going to be hard pressed in my books to detect the Scout, and even when or if they do it's well outside their range. They'll have to call on their own close orbit and air support elements if they have any to have any shot at the Scout.

Originally posted by Ran Targas:
All sarcasm aside

Oh... Now I'm not sure what was sarcasm I took you literally, oh well, onwards

The Millenium Falcon comparison is also off, or am I looking at it backwards? No I don't think so. The correct comparison would have the Falcon in the place of the Scout so it should be measured against what it could do to an Imperial Walker. It'd mash it is what and maybe come away with a few scars, and the hyperdrive would be offline of course

I would agree with the bit about the lightsaber, except that it's magic, hokey religion, force be with you, and all that ya know

I don't think anybody said anything about turning the tide of global war with a single Scout turret, though a shot in the right place at the right time, beat of a butterfly wing and all that, could very well do just that. No the scenario I thought I saw developing was a desperate rescue of one man and a chance encounter with a limited (one or two) patrol of tanks to add some danger to it. I don't even recall if they were grav tanks at this point

Besides, the refs job is not to kill the PCs, it's just to make life interesting. He doesn't need to throw the whole of a global war theatre's assests against a lone Scout to do that

 

[parmasson]

“What is it about a dedicated high-performance, military weapon system going up against a pseudo-civilian utility craft (armed with a low end weapon)”

Apparently the civilian weapons are very much like the military ones. I am drawn to the age of sail analogy. If we mount say a big twelve pounder cannon on a merchant vessel it can do as much damage as that weapon in military hands. What use would civilian weapons be against pirates armed with better military gear.
A turret in CT is something like Cr1,000,000. That speaks of rather high grade hardware.

Also we are not talking about a multi-million ton battle station we are talking about one tank. It is unlikely that you would encounter one tank alone but if you did it looks like the spaceship would have the high ground, more enegery at it disposal, speed and if not a more powerful weapon then one with greater range.

I would also argue if it has not been said already that TL is critical. TL-12 tank vs. TL-14 scout ship should make a big difference. Think a German Tiger tank vs. an F-16.

 

[Ran Targas]

^ I apologize; I was channeling an old gaming acquaitance whose PC's always ended up dead or crippled after the first encounter ... He hopelessly argued with the GM a lot too!

I really feel I am giving the Sulie its due in this fight but I don't believe the tank is getting a fair shake here.

The Sulie does have significant military reconnaissance capabilities; I often have to remind my PC's that theirs is a very capable sensor platform. But it is not a military assault craft or weapons platform despite the desires of some to make it so.

Against an modern day MBT, a Sulie would definitely prevail (a function of TL difference). But against a tank of the same TL, designed from the grav plate up to confuse battlefield sensors and survive the attacks of battlefield weapons, a Sulie shouldn't be competitive. Look, sulies wouldn't even fair well against Far Traders. And, as Sigg says, the grav tank is really more like a high performance atmo craft at higher TL's, giving the tank even greater advantage. There is even a reasonable chance the Sulie is a lower tech level than the tank; in which case, the scout is definitely toast.

Put it this way; don't you think the tank designers expect to have their baby attacked by orbital laser sats or high altitude aircraft? Wouldn't they develop counters to that threat?

Conversely, don't you think the tank designers expect to have their pride and joy attacked by low flying, laser armed, supersonic aircraft (most much smaller than a Sulie with ECM to boot)? Wouldn't it be prudent to be able to engage or defend against that threat?

The biggest disadvantage I can see for the tank is detection. This is also the traditional problem with armor, a fault exploited by missileers and attack choppers. If the tank is not keyed into the approaching Sulie, the scout gets a free shot(s). But as the Sulie is not a stealth bomber with extensive passive and active countermeasures, the local air defense should be well aware of its approach; at which point the gaggle of tanks just need to fire along the line of flight.

Again, I'm not saying this wouldn't be a fun scenario to play out. But moderately trained PC's flying a classic (or even antique) starship willy-nilly above a battlefield looking for a downed crewman is like driving a Winnebago across a Walmart parking lot in broad day light honking your horn. You'd let your PC's get away with it scott free?

 

[parmasson]

“You'd let your PC's get away with it scott free?”
Never! Never!

A lucky shot is going to force them to land.

Well I have to agree. There is very little chance that one tank would be encountered. Chances are a platoon or even three or four backed up by whatever tanks are backed up by. I figure that tanks do not work alone with at least a patrol curser or two standing guard above.

 

[robject]

So what I'm hearing is that the grav tank issue is very similar to the fighter issue: their effectiveness vs spacecraft depends on the TL of the tank and the spacecraft, because armor and weapons are rated per TL.

And the food chain sort of follows displacement, as well.

And there is protection in numbers.


Battledress
Grav Tank
Fighter spacecraft
Scouts
Traders
Patrol craft
Escorts
(etc)

 

[far-trader]

I think we're closer to agreeing than apart on most of this, up to here...

Originally posted by Ran Targas:
...But against a tank of the same TL, designed from the grav plate up to confuse battlefield sensors and survive the attacks of battlefield weapons,... And, as Sigg says, the grav tank is really more like a high performance atmo craft at higher TL's, giving the tank even greater advantage.

Put it this way; don't you think the tank designers expect to have their baby attacked by orbital laser sats or high altitude aircraft? Wouldn't they develop counters to that threat?

Conversely, don't you think the tank designers expect to have their pride and joy attacked by low flying, laser armed, supersonic aircraft? Wouldn't it be prudent to be able to engage or defend against that threat?

...and even through this I agree in principal. It's the specifics that are the problem. I don't see canon designs built this way. The Grav tanks that are supposed to be this wonder of the force equally suited for combat in all environs is built with different armor faces so that it has to hug the ground and avoid mines to it's soft belly. The defenses are woefully inadequate for anything beyond personal weapons. In short it IS a tank, made to do one thing, kill other tanks on the ground. It would be hopelessly outclassed as an air combat craft in any role. Maybe I missed a good canon design of this mythic multirole vehicle somewhere but I don't think so. That design would change the discussion considerably.

Originally posted by Ran Targas:
Again, I'm not saying this wouldn't be a fun scenario to play out. But moderately trained PC's flying a classic (or even antique) starship willy-nilly above a battlefield looking for a downed crewman is like driving a Winnebago across a Walmart parking lot in broad day light honking your horn. You'd let your PC's get away with it scott free?

Nope I agree, that would be a stupid suicide on their part. If PCs under my referage were to plan it so poorly they'd be shot out of the sky. I never got the idea that was the scenario, but maybe I was just glossing my own ideas over the facts.

 

[mike wightman]

How about if we design the Trepida as a 10t 3-4G, heavily armoured, 1 weeks PP duration, plasma or fusion gun armed fighter using High Guard?

That'll make the fight against a scout ship interesting

 

[far-trader]

Interesting? It'd change the dynamics of it entirely. I agree that's the way they are supposed to be portrayed, just they never got the proper design. The role I see for the canon Trepida is drop from orbit (after all COACC elements are scrubbed by the Navy). The Trepida then goes in (Army and/or Marines) to root out the ground elements, with Ortillery support on call.

After action the Trepidas can make a leisurely lift under their own power back to the drop ships. This eliminates the need for small craft or streamlined landing ships.

But that's just the way I do it with what's presented. Give me a properly designed flying space tank and things change a bit.

 

[mike wightman]

Trepida - TL14 - 10t - "plasma" gun - sandcaster - missile rack - maneuver/agility 3g/3 - #10 armour - 1.5 weeks power plant duration - computer model 2(reduced to 1) - 2 crew
</font><blockquote>code:</font><hr /><pre style="font-size:x-small; font-family: monospace;">GT - 0103C11 - A30000 - 03002 - 0 10tons
1 1 1 Crew 2
1 1 1 TL14
Fuel = 0.5t EP = 1.3, Agility = 3 </pre>[/QUOTE]notes - there are quite a few fudges