Striker Combat - Armor, Penetration and Damage

[kilemall]

Nope. A horseman's kite shield is usually NARROWER than 2'6" by a notable margin. The later (and more common) Heater is about as wide as it gets to be used as a shield instead of a carried pavis, and they become pretty hard to handle at about 2'6", too. Note that the heater is a general purpose shield.

Any shield more than tip of elbow to tip of fingers across is biomechanically problematic. If there is too much past the elbow, you can wind up bound on the upper arm, and break it way too easily. (I've had friends discover this the hard way.) If too much comes off the finger side, it interferes with the swordarm.

Riot shields, by the way, are wider, but seriously impair the ability to use the baton/tonfa/firearm in the other hand. They're literally intended for pushing crowds, not for melee.

Note also, the smallest commonly used shields were in the 8" - 12" range. In melee, a 12-14" Buckler is almost as good as a full heater; what it lacks in surface it makes up for in mobility and vision.

A 39" wide shield (and yes, I've used a 38" round) is worthless as a shield; it's both too heavy to actively use, and blocks one's vision and one's sword. Total waste of wood and leather. And too awkward to raise overhead, even.

I'm well aware that kite shields were narrower, I am looking for a standard area value to hang the materials tech/armor/weight calc to, which would then be morphed into whatever shape for specialized purposes like the real things were.

 

[aramis]

Heater shield, round bottom(2'6"x3'6"): 0.76x0.91 overall, 0.63m²
Heater shield, point bottom: 0.76x0.91m overall, 0.6m²
Small pointed Heater (2'x3') 0.61x0.91m, 0.48m²
Kite: 0.6m², 0.61x1.37m
Round (24"): 0.61x0.61, 0.29m²
Large Round (30"): 0.76x0.76, 0.45m²
Small Round, large buckler (18"): 0.46x0.46, 0.15m²
Buckler, 15": 0.38x0.38m, 0.11m²
Small buckler, 12": 0.07m² , 0.3x0.3m
Roman Tower (4'6"): face 0.8x1.38m² 1.1m² (Note: overall is only about 0.75x1.38, as face is curved.)

Note: Tiny kites and tiny heaters were used in fencing, too, 1'x2' kite and 1' x 1.5' heater.

 

[kilemall]

Been revisiting this, and looking for input on a couple points.

1) Helmet baseline-

I would assume low tech helmets to be valued like Jack or Mesh, or maybe a little better for Melee armor.

For TL5-8 I am thinking value 2 for steel helmets and 3 for kevlar helmets- is this reasonable?

2) Cloth armor-

I'm wondering if cloth is a bit overpowered, greatly reducing rifle damage and not vulnerable to stabby things.

Most default vests are rated 50% against handguns, and not good against knives.

I'm thinking the default for flexible cloth is 3 like the flak jacket, and 5 for a set with plates.

For the knife question, maybe it should be more like 3 against bullets and [1] vs. melee weapons, and only cloth with plate gives full spectrum protection?

 

[kilemall]

Can I get some comment on this please?

Been revisiting this, and looking for input on a couple points.

1) Helmet baseline-

I would assume low tech helmets to be valued like Jack or Mesh, or maybe a little better for Melee armor.

For TL5-8 I am thinking value 2 for steel helmets and 3 for kevlar helmets- is this reasonable?

2) Cloth armor-

I'm wondering if cloth is a bit overpowered, greatly reducing rifle damage and not vulnerable to stabby things.

Most default vests are rated 50% against handguns, and not good against knives.

I'm thinking the default for flexible cloth is 3 like the flak jacket, and 5 for a set with plates.

For the knife question, maybe it should be more like 3 against bullets and [1] vs. melee weapons, and only cloth with plate gives full spectrum protection?

 

[atpollard]

Been revisiting this, and looking for input on a couple points.

2) Cloth armor-

I'm wondering if cloth is a bit overpowered, greatly reducing rifle damage and not vulnerable to stabby things.

Most default vests are rated 50% against handguns, and not good against knives.

I'm thinking the default for flexible cloth is 3 like the flak jacket, and 5 for a set with plates.

For the knife question, maybe it should be more like 3 against bullets and [1] vs. melee weapons, and only cloth with plate gives full spectrum protection?

I have no idea about helmets, but Cloth Armor in Classic Traveller isn't really like a modern vest. From it's performance and place in Combat it seems more like an advanced version of those bank robbers who covered themselves head to toe with Kevlar and walked through police gunfire with impunity (prompting LEO to upgrade to military rifles).

North Holywood Shootout (Feb 1997)

 

[kilemall]

I have no idea about helmets, but Cloth Armor in Classic Traveller isn't really like a modern vest. From it's performance and place in Combat it seems more like an advanced version of those bank robbers who covered themselves head to toe with Kevlar and walked through police gunfire with impunity (prompting LEO to upgrade to military rifles).

North Holywood Shootout (Feb 1997)

Ya, that's my perspective, so you think my proposed valuation is reasonable?

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/ground/body-armor1.htm

 

[Condottiere]

Cloth implies flexibility, even if it's heavily padded.

Adding ceramic and/or steel plates would make it inflexible.

 

[aramis]

A flak vest, for what it's worth, is canonically "Cloth +1 or Mesh" - whichever is better.

 

[atpollard]

Cloth implies flexibility, even if it's heavily padded.

Adding ceramic and/or steel plates would make it inflexible.

I went and read up a little on the difference between bullet, cut and stab resistant armors. The difference seems to come down to the properties of the "fabric". Bullets are stopped by a soft fabric that deforms but has a very high strength (which means a knife edge will cut it or a needle will slip through the weave). Knives are stopped by a hard mail that will not shear (but will shatter or pass a bullet and a needle will still slip through). A needle is stopped by a plastic film that resists puncture. Modern vests are made with layers of different flexible materials.

A future tech like Cloth Armor could be any combination of any flexible layers with any combined properties.

That makes this a Game Balance and personal taste issue.

 

[kilemall]

Cloth implies flexibility, even if it's heavily padded.

Adding ceramic and/or steel plates would make it inflexible.

Yes, which is why I would add some sort of encumbrance, then take it away at a later TL with 'Advanced Cloth' or the like.

 

[Condottiere]

We'll have to discover mithril and weave them into shirts.

Realistically, you'd layer protection.

Advanced technology fibres could make it difficult to slice or thrust through.

While the game options might not reflect it, cloth armour should be good enough to defeat standard calibre bullets, and a chainmail mesh prevent blades penetrating.

 

[aramis]

I went and read up a little on the difference between bullet, cut and stab resistant armors. The difference seems to come down to the properties of the "fabric". Bullets are stopped by a soft fabric that deforms but has a very high strength (which means a knife edge will cut it or a needle will slip through the weave). Knives are stopped by a hard mail that will not shear (but will shatter or pass a bullet and a needle will still slip through). A needle is stopped by a plastic film that resists puncture. Modern vests are made with layers of different flexible materials.

A future tech like Cloth Armor could be any combination of any flexible layers with any combined properties.

That makes this a Game Balance and personal taste issue.

"Passing a needle" is not a good description.

Having worked Spectra... it will pass a fine needle at very low speed. You cannot reliably machine sew the stuff unless you have a very thin, high pressure needle, and work slowly; teflon spray helps. A 20ga insulin needle will not penetrate 2 layers at speed. Nor will an epi autoinjector. Several SCA fencers I know used spectra "armor" for fencing... and destructively tested a variety of scenarios.

To get the insulin needle through, it had to be slow and wiggling; a quick jab bent the needle.

 

[kilemall]

I believe I posted a video and rules on the Army liquid treatment developed to turn normal ballistic cloth into stabproof, in this very thread.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rYIWfn2Jz2g

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rMNCeFFaelo

Consider how valuable that stab protection would be for vacc suits, especially working through a damaged ship with plenty of twisted metal to tear at damage control/emergency teams.

So that's already handled, just treat earlier ballistic cloth with a lower melee weapon value, and later advanced as having full melee protection (along with more subtle 'normal' clothes that can get a melee armor value discretely, perfect for those high LL knife only planets).

I was working the lasers actually, right on the bubble of highly destructive without armor, and contrasting that with the TL 5-7 rifles, and realizing Cloth as is was a bit too much.

Also, I want to create an armor development tree between TL7 and TL10 CES for ballistic threats- most of the action is Ablat and Reflec, but I am working out a progression for Cloth that should work well- the proposed valuations would seem to me to be a good start.

CES would be the culmination of flexible stabproof and partial laser protection. Plated CES would be value 9 with encumbrance and be the bridge to Combat Armor.

As far as Mesh is concerned, good enough for what it represents, but items like plate armor, or even the plate vests of the early gunpowder era such as the ones that helped the conquistadors conquer Mexico, aren't covered very well.

So I'm thinking for plate armor suits, something like melee 3 and gun 1, and WWI steel jackets value 2, both encumbered one level automatically. Vests, I'm toying with their weight counts against encumbrance unlike most armor, but not auto-encumbered.

 

[kilemall]

Would it be okay to produce an armor chart with the Striker values and my proposed versions inserted?

 

[atpollard]

Would it be okay to produce an armor chart with the Striker values and my proposed versions inserted?

FFE Fair Use Policy says up to about a page of data and non-commercial, so it sounds like what you propose falls well within Fair Use Guidelines.

 

[kilemall]

FFE Fair Use Policy says up to about a page of data and non-commercial, so it sounds like what you propose falls well within Fair Use Guidelines.

Very good, worked up the armor last night, just need to plug in the shields and the cost factors, still trying to decide what a CES helmet should cost for instance.

Have to do the weight too, both for plugging into CT encumbrance and the heavier plated armor for CA/BD is going to hurt. May be impossible to do TL14 CA plate. Heh, could be a BD suit literally cannot be walked by a human without power or zero-G.

How many square meters of armor does it take to cover the average male?

 

[kilemall]

Just about done with the armor table.

One major 'fix', I moved the most iconic Cloth to TL8, and have BP (for bullet proof) as the armor for TL7.

Guns 4/Melee 2, with a ceramic plate option that yields 6/3 but forces an Encumbrance of 1 for a vest and another for extremities.

Cloth is redefined as being a wonder material that was manufactured for vacc suit use as much as combat, to provide protection in space against micrometeorites and sharp artificial cuts working around damaged ships/space construction sites.

That plate stuff is the basic rule I'm putting in that generates higher value armor at a price- half as much added in and rounded down, for a price of -1 encumbrance per vest and another 1- encumbrance for plated arms and legs.

A typical setup would have plated vest and flexible base armor for the extremities so encumbrance 1 to start and better protection where it matters, and since I'm doing hit location the distinction counts.

The helmets and helms can be bought for 20% of the vest price. Helms cover the whole head and gives +1 to be surprised. Helmets are the more open head coverage we are familiar with and does not increase surprise, but is armor value -1 to the base material.

Shields are still my big sticking point.

 

[kilemall]

Thinking about the blades and material science ala composite or superdense melee weapons....

I'm thinking three variables-

1. Superlight versions with the same penetration/damage so weaker characters can avoid the penalty, but the advantage still requires high STR since the kinetic impact has to be more speed instead of combination of stroke and weight of weapon part of slash/chop/thrust.
2. Same form factor and weight as regular weapons but better penetration with harder materials.
3. Double weight weapons for use with Battle Dress. The Marine Cutlass is not necessarily that lowtech ceremonial blade! Double STR mods, increase in penetration.

 

[kilemall]

This is a real world result from Chicago gun deaths 2018 and relative placement.

This gives us two variables, percentage of hit per given body area and percentage chance of death per hit in given body area.


Put another way, discounting the unknown location stat the percentage of location hit breaks down as 2820 shots total, so


Percentage of hits per location-



Head 15%

Torso 29%

Arms 16%

Lower Body 38%




Percentage lethality chance per location-


Head 51%

Torso 25%

Arms 1%

Lower Body less then 1%


Overall chance of death per hit-


15%




Of course this is a bit different set of circumstances then Striker combat- the participants are not trained combat troops mostly firing longarms but a lot of street pistol/revolver class shots and a certain amount of domestic/personal, at short range. So perhaps the lethality percentage should be upped a tad for our game assumptions.



Even so, it's largely a vindicating datum point for my Head 3D/Torso 2D/Else 1D model.


The percentage of lower body hits is rather surprising, but perhaps I shouldn't be surprised given that it is over 50% of the length of the average body. I have to reconsider that.


The other rethnk is perhaps I should not make the head be the high end on the hit table.



Remember, I'm increasing the damage greater skilled shooters have in aiming for center mass and/or head, but it's much more probably they will hit center mass, maybe I should alter the head to be in the middle of the damage and otherwise the chest would be the top end and most likely to hit for Skill-1+ characters.

 

[whartung]

This is a real world result from Chicago gun deaths 2018 and relative placement.

It's a pretty interesting bit of data.

But it doesn't provide any data on incapacitation.

Arguably, shooting someone, the goal isn't to kill them -- it's to incapacitate them. Stop the attack.

Particularly important gunplay in a game like Traveller.

How many of the leg wounds died of sepsis, or bled out later, etc.