Striker Combat - Armor, Penetration and Damage

[kilemall]

Agreed. My tables also include this decoupling between a weapon's capability (based on range) and the Difficulty Ranges for character to-hit rolls. Although others find this too finicky and prefer more straight-forward approaches (such as TNE's doubling increases. To my mind it provides another way of differentiating between weapons.

As always, YMMV. ;-)

Er.

To my knowledge both kinetic damage AND energy weapons degrade their respective punch at X range due to gravity/friction/attenuation/diffraction, and at the same time distance makes for potentially greater error in achieving a hit.

A good deal of the weapon designer's art is reconciling the possible target solution capabilities, ammunition and the weapon as platform able to fire and usefully harness the round's inherent capabilities within current materials technology limits, ammo/energy carry capacity, vs. intended mission and likely opposing platforms.

Thus, a pH is baked into each weapon, by virtue of it's nature and utility, at X Y Z ranges.

So I'm not grasping what you buy, simulationist or gaming, by making such a distinction.

 

[Hyphen]

Perhaps I should have been more specific and talked about the end of the range band.

Forex, the 7 mm revolver's Penetration at range is 1/1/1/0, reaching into the Long (300m) range band. But it can only shoot out to 80m. This means although you can target anything between 45m and 300m with the same Diff, if you target something at 100m away, you'll do no damage if you "hit" (the bullet falls short, or similar- it has no effect).

Thats what I meant by uncoupling the individual weapons from the arbitrary range bands. Striker approached it differently: it gave each weapon its own unique profile; e.g. 300/600/900m (Eff/Long/Extreme). What this says, for the user, is that 300m with a rifle is as easy a shot as 10m with a snub pistol - which I have some difficulty believing.

As I said, YMMV. And really, when it comes down to it in most tabletop scenarios, we never get beyond Medium range anyway! Most of this is just for my own amusement. ;-)

 

[kilemall]

Perhaps I should have been more specific and talked about the end of the range band.

Forex, the 7 mm revolver's Penetration at range is 1/1/1/0, reaching into the Long (300m) range band. But it can only shoot out to 80m. This means although you can target anything between 45m and 300m with the same Diff, if you target something at 100m away, you'll do no damage if you "hit" (the bullet falls short, or similar- it has no effect).

Thats what I meant by uncoupling the individual weapons from the arbitrary range bands. Striker approached it differently: it gave each weapon its own unique profile; e.g. 300/600/900m (Eff/Long/Extreme). What this says, for the user, is that 300m with a rifle is as easy a shot as 10m with a snub pistol - which I have some difficulty believing.

As I said, YMMV. And really, when it comes down to it in most tabletop scenarios, we never get beyond Medium range anyway! Most of this is just for my own amusement. ;-)

Hmm, you have a point- I think the Striker values are more about bullet drop or the like rather then relative target area/perspective. They are saying the snub round will start getting wonky past that point.

I'm under the impression though that in close quarter battle a rifle will not be doing as well as a pistol/SMG, something the old CT ranges/DMs DID model and so do the weapons classes of MgT and Striker skips over.

Eh, take that back a bit, really up close you won't do as well but hold and fire at the hip if not enough time and space to halt and go for aimed fire.

 

[atpollard]

Hmm, you have a point- I think the Striker values are more about bullet drop or the like rather then relative target area/perspective. They are saying the snub round will start getting wonky past that point.

I'm under the impression though that in close quarter battle a rifle will not be doing as well as a pistol/SMG, something the old CT ranges/DMs DID model and so do the weapons classes of MgT and Striker skips over.

Eh, take that back a bit, really up close you won't do as well but hold and fire at the hip if not enough time and space to halt and go for aimed fire.

Strangely enough, in my PbP game I am discovering why the world went to Carbines and Assault Rifles. I think I have had one shot at greater than pistol range in a year of PbP gaming. It is hard to get out to even 100 meters in an urban environment or the woods. Encounters happen closer than that.

It has led me to focus on recording the Striker Short Range and Pen for the weapon with the character and dropping the rest of the data. I can look up the stats for an extreme range shot if I ever need one, but at less than once per year of daily play ... how desperately is it needed in MY PbP game?

That experiential data is what led me to lean towards favoring the FF&S calculate Short Range and double to get other ranges. So I lean towards Short range is the 8+ to hit with skill-0 range and each doubling of the range raises the target by 2 (short = 8+; 2 x short = 10+; 4 x short = 12+; 8 x short = 14+).

For a Pistol with a short range of 10 meters, the to hit vs ranges become
10m = 8+
20m = 10+
40m = 12+ ... (best a skill-0 can hope to hit at)
80m = 14+ ... (a shot requiring lots of both skill and luck)

For a carbine with a short range of 100 meters, the to hit vs ranges become
100m = 8+
200m = 10+
400m = 12+ ... (best a skill-0 can hope to hit at)
800m = 14+ ... (a shot requiring lots of both skill and luck)

For a sniper rifle with a short range of 300 meters (FF&S Max.), the to hit vs ranges become
300m = 8+
600m = 10+
1200m = 12+ ... (best a skill-0 can hope to hit at)
2400m = 14+ ... (a shot requiring lots of both skill and luck)


One of the things people have expressed concern over is the ability to differentiate guns. Setting just the short range from 1 m to 300 m grants 300 different guns from the smallest snub-nosed holdout that would fit in a belt buckle to the most accurate sniper rifle ... with an absolute maximum range that varies from 8 meters to 2400 meters. How much granularity do you need in a 2d6 game? You can still vary the damage of the guns from a varmit round to a Magnum Round and stay within the original damage range found in CT. Using the striker penetration range of 0-8 found for firearms, those 300 different guns now become 2700 different distinct possible guns. All represented with just a short range and a penetration.

YMMV

 

[kilemall]

Not a bad system. Doesn't do what Hyphen is after, but works for you and yours.

Ya, most spaceship/startown/base encounters are going to be more like Mayday/AHL ranges, the AHL system could probably do for most encounters.

With the -2 suppressive fire rule I just came up with, most firefights are not going to be at extreme range anyway. I would expect most players would adapt by getting their long range guys further out and in ambush position along with maneuver and flank, like they should.

How do you drop off penetration per range?

 

[atpollard]

Not a bad system. Doesn't do what Hyphen is after, but works for you and yours.

Ya, most spaceship/startown/base encounters are going to be more like Mayday/AHL ranges, the AHL system could probably do for most encounters.

With the -2 suppressive fire rule I just came up with, most firefights are not going to be at extreme range anyway. I would expect most players would adapt by getting their long range guys further out and in ambush position along with maneuver and flank, like they should.

How do you drop off penetration per range?

... and forest encounters.

I am not sure about Pen at range ... it hasn't happened yet

I lean towards a simple halving the Pen at each doubling of the range.
It is easy to remember.

 

[kilemall]

... and forest encounters.

I am not sure about Pen at range ... it hasn't happened yet

I lean towards a simple halving the Pen at each doubling of the range.
It is easy to remember.

Should work for most people.

I have a crew who are the types that will spot something 'wrong' with musket resolution much less modern rifles, so between that and a general fussiness on my part about differing performance ranges and ratios, I don't have a problem sticking with Striker lookup.

I should mention that I really like this book, a very accessible CT friendly 'GunMaker' and if I wasn't sticking with Striker, I would be all over this-

http://crucible.cc/traveller/docs/armoryandordinance.pdf

Actually.....

if you translate each die of damage as Striker Pen value 1, +1/+2 results as say an extra +1 of pen at Long range after halving, it might do as a GunMaker for Striker. Hmm, going to have to play with that.

 

[kilemall]

Well, back at it again, and I think I have worked out a lot of bugs in the preceding versions.

Got melee and archaic missile weapons worked out too.

AND the rigid armor vs. flexible, plus a new kinetic cloth option.

AND the shields, archaic modern and future.

AND one-handed weapon issues, if one insists on using shields when one ought not.

Just have to figure out whether I want to stick with Striker melee sequencing, I want to employ the + to hit/range/-parry but I'm looking for something similar, and I think people with pistols could whirl around and fire in melee.

The damage system will probably make some of you twitch, as it's highly variable within a range- the weapon in CT terms will generally resolve as it's classic X die most of the time, but sometimes it's just nicks on the arm, other times brain concussion with a hand hit to the head.

But it does what I want, hit location with experts going for center mass, articulated armor resolution, PGMPs will tear your arm off but not necessarily autokill you, and swords can be absolute kills or just light wounds.

 

[kilemall]

1. Determine Hit Location And Associated Damage

Roll 2d6, add weapon skill

12 Head 3D
11 Spine/Neck 2D
10 Thigh 2D
09 Chest 2D
08 Stomach 2D
07 Facing Arm 1D
06 Facing Leg 1D
05 Facing Hand 1D
04 Back Arm 1D
03 Back Leg 1D
02 Back Hand 1D

2. Determine penetration/armor modified damage

Note location, determine armor coverage for that location, roll 2d6, apply +pen, -armor/cover

12 +3D
11 +2D
10 +1D
09 +1D
08 -
07 -
06 -
05 -1D
04 -1D
03 -2D
02 -2D

Add +3 to armor value for Hollow Point rounds, +4 for Melee/Bow Weapons

Ignore Melee armor mod for animals/plants weighing 200kg or more, and add +1 penetration per 1000kg.

3. Add Weapon Type Bonus Damage, Sum Total Damage, Apply

Trauma effect weapons add 1D to damage. HE, EW, HP, and blunt melee metal weapons like hammers and maces qualify.

Sum total die damage and apply as per CT.

 

[kilemall]

Even simpler armor upgrade-

Plate-

1.5x Armor Value, 4x Cost, auto encumbrance for full suit but not for just vest/helmet, and armor counts for weight either way. No lift loss for BD, as the staggering cost increase goes largely to increased power/lift systems to carry the extra weight.

Kinetic Cloth-

Cloth can be treated to resist knives, swords and other melee weapons.

This kinetic cloth resists penetration by bladed weapons, animal weapons, etc., but not slug guns or other higher tech high velocity weaponry.

Using Striker rules, Kinetic Cloth gives an additional +2 armor value against melee weapons, and can be applied to normal clothing or armor. A similar conversion can be worked out for most versions, a low but useful additive value similar to Mesh.

Kinetic Cloth costs 10% or 200 Cr for the treatment, whichever costs more.

That cost is for items that are mass-produced- applying it to the unique fabrics of civilian dress is very much a custom process, especially if it is for a full wardrobe of a VIP. Roll 1d6 per item and multiply against 10% of the cost of the civilian item or 200 CR, apply whichever costs more.

It is available as a military item at TL9+, and as a civilian option at TL10+.

It is very popular with civilian hunters and hikers with jack armor as protection against wildlife and hazards, scout teams especially operating undercover on barbarian contact planets, a standard option for many service uniforms, highly desirable for vacc suits especially for working battle damage/salvage/construction, and an extra edge on high law level planets with only blades legal.

It's usually not worth adding to combat armor and battle dress due to the cost and limited need due to their higher protection against blades anyway.

One aspect often not considered ahead of time is that normal tailoring tools will not penetrate or break on attempting to cut or thread items on a treated piece. Lasers and high tensile power tools are required to tailor these clothes/uniforms, and insignia/rank are often magnetically/velcro affixed.

This is based on the US Army's program for rendering ballistic suits stab proof. Arguably I have set the value too low, I just didn't want this overpowered or eliminate melee weapons altogether too soon, too cheaply.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rYIWfn2Jz2g

I have also not postulated TL improvements in the technology. I figure there is an upper limit to what it can do.

 

[kilemall]

So, very close to posting on the shields.

They are relatively simple, being factored as cover under ranged bow/gun fire and parry weapons up close.

What has been troublesome is by their nature, shields require any weapon the character is wielding to be in the other hand/arm, in other words one-handed.

So, it's a whole interaction of system to get that feature in place so shields are meaningful.

 

[kilemall]

One-Handed Rule-

All personal weapons, melee and gun, are valued with characteristic modifiers based on being wielded two-handed.

However, due to shield use, hand/arm damage, a preference for simultaneous two weapon use or other extenuating circumstances, a weapon may be wielded in one hand.

Negative modifiers apply when a weapon is used one-handed.

Crossbows can be used one-handed, all other bow weapons must be used with two hands.

If using CT/Striker characteristic mods-

Divide the weapon plus ammo weight at full load by 1kg and round down.

Add that value to the minimum/maximum characteristic modifier value to determine the characteristic modifiers to apply, if any.

Examples-

Broadsword is normally STR mods 8 (-4) 12 (+2). It weighs 2.5 kg, rounding down yields 2, so wielded one-handed it goes to 10 (-4) 14 (+2).

Dagger is STR 4 (-2) 8 (+2), it is less then 1kg so one handed wielding is no effect.

9mm Magnum Revolver is DEX 7 (-2) 9 (+1), 1.32 kg so one-handed is 8 (-2) 10 (+1).

7mm Assault Rifle is DEX 5 (-1) 8 (+2), 4.8 kg, so one-handed is 9 (-1) 12 (+2).

4mm gauss rifle is DEX 7 (-2) 10 (+2), 3.9 kg, so 10 (-2) 13 (+2).

________________________________________________________________

BD/Grav Compensator Exception- if the character is in Battle Dress or the weapon has grav compensators, increases in the gun characteristic requirements are ignored if the weapon is designed to fit in a recoil socket/mounting.

Melee weapons are valued as above, but the BD wearer's STR is doubled, so likely they will be able to overcome the disadvantage and gain the advantage mod, even one-handed.

________________________________________________________________

If using my Characteristic/Skill task system-

For two-handed melee and zero-g weapons, divide the weapon plus ammo weight at full load by 1kg and round down. For regular guns, use effective range penetration value, divide by 2 and round up.

For one-handed melee weapons, double melee weapon weight, divide melee weapon by 1kg, .5 and up results round up.

For one-handed zero-G gun weapons, divide the weapon plus ammo weight at full load by 1kg, .5 and up results round up. If not zero-G, use either the above weight calc or the effective range penetration value if it is higher then weapon weight.

Apply the above value as a direct negative DM to the roll.

Examples-

Broadsword weighs 2.5 kg- two-handed is -2, doubling yields 5, so -5 to hit one-handed.

Dagger is .25kg, no modifier two handed, doubled is .5kg so -1 to hit one-handed.

9mm Magnum Revolver is 1.32 kg and penetration 3, -2 to hit two handed, and one-handed is -3.

7mm Assault Rifle is 4.6 kg and penetration 3, so two-handed is -2 and one-handed is -5.

4mm gauss rifle is 3.9 kg and penetration 7, so two-handed is -4 and one-handed is -7.

 

[kilemall]

The shield problem- defining the shields are no biggie- .5 x .5 meter for small shields, 1 x 1 meter for large shields, in different form factors covering different locations based on what the fighter is covering, X STR to wield, with a parry value for melee.

The problem is figuring out the gun/missile cover rule.

As it stands, if one uses the cover rules as is, one could have a wooden/leather shield equivalent to jack that would act as a armor value 9 against missile weapons, and a cloth era shield would get that 8 equivalent bonus and end up with a 13 against guns.

I'm not really comfortable with that.

Layering the shield would get something more reasonable, say a mesh level armor and shield would be a 4 which will do nicely against swords, but you still get things like a value 10 against guns with cloth, which makes the policeman with a revolver and a tactical shield able to ruin battle rifle equipped people.

 

[aramis]

The shield problem- defining the shields are no biggie- .5 x .5 meter for small shields, 1 x 1 meter for large shields, in different form factors covering different locations based on what the fighter is covering, X STR to wield, with a parry value for melee.

The problem is figuring out the gun/missile cover rule.

As it stands, if one uses the cover rules as is, one could have a wooden/leather shield equivalent to jack that would act as a armor value 9 against missile weapons, and a cloth era shield would get that 8 equivalent bonus and end up with a 13 against guns.

I'm not really comfortable with that.

Layering the shield would get something more reasonable, say a mesh level armor and shield would be a 4 which will do nicely against swords, but you still get things like a value 10 against guns with cloth, which makes the policeman with a revolver and a tactical shield able to ruin battle rifle equipped people.

A 1x1m shield is unwieldy. I've known guys who used shields that big, and it ALWAYS severely impeded their own attacks and vision. Even Rounds shields that big are a problem.

 

[kilemall]

A 1x1m shield is unwieldy. I've known guys who used shields that big, and it ALWAYS severely impeded their own attacks and vision. Even Rounds shields that big are a problem.

Don't worry, I'll weigh it down appropriately, with the one-handed effects defined above.

1m x 1m IS intended to cover the whole gamut from big round shields to various rectangular or kite shields.

.5m x 1m just doesn't seem to cut it.

 

[aramis]

Don't worry, I'll weigh it down appropriately, with the one-handed effects defined above.

1m x 1m IS intended to cover the whole gamut from big round shields to various rectangular or kite shields.

.5m x 1m just doesn't seem to cut it.

The widest I've seen used without loss of combat effectiveness was about 2.5', or about 76cm. I've seen shields up to 1.5m tall used. Most shields are about 1.5 to 2' (45-65 cm)

 

[kilemall]

The widest I've seen used without loss of combat effectiveness was about 2.5', or about 76cm. I've seen shields up to 1.5m tall used. Most shields are about 1.5 to 2' (45-65 cm)

Which is what the small shield covers, and would be the go-to shield for melee. The bigger one would be used more by some of those pike/spear formations, or horseback.

 

[aramis]

Which is what the small shield covers, and would be the go-to shield for melee. The bigger one would be used more by some of those pike/spear formations, or horseback.

Nope. A horseman's kite shield is usually NARROWER than 2'6" by a notable margin. The later (and more common) Heater is about as wide as it gets to be used as a shield instead of a carried pavis, and they become pretty hard to handle at about 2'6", too. Note that the heater is a general purpose shield.

Any shield more than tip of elbow to tip of fingers across is biomechanically problematic. If there is too much past the elbow, you can wind up bound on the upper arm, and break it way too easily. (I've had friends discover this the hard way.) If too much comes off the finger side, it interferes with the swordarm.

Riot shields, by the way, are wider, but seriously impair the ability to use the baton/tonfa/firearm in the other hand. They're literally intended for pushing crowds, not for melee.

Note also, the smallest commonly used shields were in the 8" - 12" range. In melee, a 12-14" Buckler is almost as good as a full heater; what it lacks in surface it makes up for in mobility and vision.

A 39" wide shield (and yes, I've used a 38" round) is worthless as a shield; it's both too heavy to actively use, and blocks one's vision and one's sword. Total waste of wood and leather. And too awkward to raise overhead, even.

 

[mike wightman]

My suggestion is for you look at historical examples of classical through to dark ages and then update to modern/future materials technology.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shield_wall
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shield

 

[kilemall]

My suggestion is for you look at historical examples of classical through to dark ages and then update to modern/future materials technology.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shield_wall
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shield

Well of course, but they have really odd dimensions, hard to quantify down to an easy set of 2-3 areas.

Shields become less useful with battlefield dispersion of rifle firepower coupled with the handling problems of said rifles one-handed, more something like starship hallways and urban enviornments with specific directions to orient the shield to. I'm looking for the small shield to be viable with pistols, and larger shields to be two-handed mobile position/cover tools.

This all changes with battle dress, the recoil/handling problems go away as do a lot of weight limits, I expect to come up with heavier shields AND melee weapons for the BD set. Imagine the Marine beloved cutlass, only it's bonded superdense and a lot heavier, so a lot more kinetic energy and cohesion at the edge for more cutting power.