Stutterwarp Discharge

[shaunhilburn]

Which brings up a good point though. Does in system warping generate a charge? If a shuttle makes its way from Earth to Mars every week, does it have to discharge at some point? Granted it would take a long time to reach 7.7 light years but principally, would it?

Not in the first edition; if you're cruising in the star's STL sphere (the inner system), you're discharging.


In the second edition, the charge builds up until it's shed in a 0.1G gravity well, so yes it builds up charge during interplanetary cruising.

You have a maximum allotment of 7.7 light-years x 63,241 AU per light-year = 486,955.7 AU.
485k AU as a safety margin. That's a *lot* of interplanetary travel.

 

[McPerth]

No. Stutterwarp can maintain an orbit and also crawl out of it. Also, IMHO, it should take only take 40 hours to purge 7.7 light-years worth of contamination. Shorter voyages should have proportionally shorter purge cycles, say 5.2 hours per LY of travel.

New 2300 TRAVELLER BOOK - Page 265
" Discharge time is a function of the distance travelled and takes about 6 hours per light year traveled. Thus a full 7.7 light year voyage would take 44.2 hours to discharge"

Well, I have no access to MgT 2300 AD (my usual gaming shop has not received it since I'm asking). What I have access to is Traveller 2300 (also known as 2300 AD 1st edition), and there the process takes about 40 hours, regardless the distance travelled (i think about it as a process that takes this time, like a washing machine, whose duration doesn't vary with the ammount of clothing you put on it).

See that making this discharge time distance dependent makes easier to go through a blockade, as most times you must not spend those 40 hours in system, but quite less several times (not saying this is good or bad, just pointing the change).

Then you reached, as I understand what rgrove says, a simular conclusion that the ones publishing MgT 2300 (as I undertand that is what he refers as New 2300 Traveller Book).

 

[LemnOc]

Here's what MgT 2300 AD has to say about discharge times:

"Discharge time is a function of the distance travelled and take about six hours per light year travelled. Thus a full 7.7 light year voyage would take 44.2 hours to discharge."

So, yes, doesn't take as long to discharge an engine that is not fully charged, according to MgT.

I'd say as long as you're closely monitoring your travel times and distances, you do not need to fully discharge an engine to move on to the next system. In case you're in a hurry.

 

[McPerth]

So, yes, doesn't take as long to discharge an engine that is not fully charged, according to MgT.

I'd say as long as you're closely monitoring your travel times and distances, you do not need to fully discharge an engine to move on to the next system. In case you're in a hurry.

You can see in my earlier post just one strategic consequence of this partial charge/discharge, but this also raises another question: may partial discharges be made?

Let's say you've discharged your fully charged stutterwarp for 12 hours when you're approached by a superior force and you want to fly, can you, as you discharged two LY worth of charge, fly to a system 1.8 LY away?

 

[aramis]

you discharge about 2.9 AU of charge per second. In-system cruising is going to be shed in the time it takes to dock.

 

[McPerth]

The key point here, IMHO, is how do we see the discharge process is:

>Is the discharging proces like filling (in this case emptying) a fuel tank, where you can have capacity for 300 km but just want (or need) to fill it for 100 km, or as downloading a program, where if it took several minutes to download it to 98% and you must turn off your computer (or it reboots, or power fails) you must start again form the begining?

If the former, then you can discharge "2 LY worth" and be just able to travel those 2 LY, if the latter, you must endure the full process or start again from zero (with the same charge you had when began to)

>Is it as a fuel tank, that you can fill at a ratio of x liters/minute, so filling at 1/3 of its capacity will take 1/3 of time than filling it full, or it is like a washing machine, whose program will take the same time regardless how much clothing you fill it with (up to its maximum capacity, of course)?

If the former, you will only have to discharge for 6 hours per LY travelled (as MgT says), if the latter, you must discharge for 40 hours, regardless how many LY you have travelled, and no partial discharges whould be possible.

 

[rgrove0172]

I prefer to see it as a process that once undertaken has to be concluded in its entirety. You can discharge at any point up to the 7.7LY max but you have to fully discharge once you start.

Perhaps the tantalum coils go through some sort of process during discharge that render them encapable of normal function until completely free of the gravistatic accumulation.

In a quirky way I see it as a problematic old motor that can continue to run for a long tiime even when the filters are clogged, the carb is filthy, sparkplugs fouled etc. but once you turn it off to do some maintenance, it will never start till its completely tuned up.

 

[LemnOc]

I tend to see it this way: When you're within the .1G threshold, you're discharging built-up charge. No special switch to pull or process to engage, the way a surface dries when it is no longer immersed. The charge evaporates as long as you're within the threshold.

You can leave the threshold at any time, and the discharge will stop. New charges will build.

 

[rgrove0172]

Hmm, that makes a certain sense too, and the two views are so radically different. Seems a shame they didnt detail the process a bit for us in the rules.

 

[McPerth]

I tend to see it this way: When you're within the .1G threshold, you're discharging built-up charge. No special switch to pull or process to engage, the way a surface dries when it is no longer immersed. The charge evaporates as long as you're within the threshold.

You can leave the threshold at any time, and the discharge will stop. New charges will build.

But if your stutterwarp is still on, you are not as a wet surface that is no longer immersed. I guess you must activelly discharge it, as charge is building up too to maintain orbit. Let's say you're diverting your new charge to a specific sector of your coils (after all, you're building up a very small quantity of charge) while the rest is discharging.

Seems a shame they didnt detail the process a bit for us in the rules.

Agreed

 

[LemnOc]

I think it comes down to what kind of campaign you’re running. The main point of the 7.7 ly limit was mostly to enforce the Arms, and to give some kind of texture to space.

If the focus is on autonomy and getting from place to place, then I’d say you don’t want too many extra limitations heaped on.

If you get mileage out of stranding players for 40 hours in every locale in order to create adventures for them, which I certainly understand, then discharging might be a bit more cumbersome operation. For sure, they’re going to be more vulnerable to boarding operations in such a scenario.

I think you can sometimes get the latter within the former. The rather routine leg from Serurier to Broward leaves your stutterwarp drive SCREAMING for discharge on arrival, no way around it. As does the very first leg of the journey into the French Arm, from Sol to Nyotekundu. In one adventure I ran, the ship’s avionics were wrecked in a star flare when players arrived there, trapped there with nowhere to go at explosive charge. Created an excuse to at least visit the place.

But I see the “gravistatic” charge/discharge more as a natural force more than mechanical procedure. Stutterwarp builds a tension that only a gravity well can relax, IM2300U.

 

[LemnOc]

But if your stutterwarp is still on, you are not as a wet surface that is no longer immersed. I guess you must activelly discharge it, as charge is building up too to maintain orbit. Let's say you're diverting your new charge to a specific sector of your coils (after all, you're building up a very small quantity of charge) while the rest is discharging.

Well, again, I don't see "maintaining orbit" as much of a problem. Newton takes care of a lot of that

And aramis has given us the in-system discharge rate, which makes the strains of stuttering around the inner solar system fairly unremarkable. The Earth to Mars runs only needs a second or two of discharge.

But I would agree that it is bad practice overall to depart a system with any residual charge. No reason to do so, unless you're really in a hurry.

 

[McPerth]

I think it comes down to what kind of campaign you’re running. The main point of the 7.7 ly limit was mostly to enforce the Arms, and to give some kind of texture to space.

If the focus is on autonomy and getting from place to place, then I’d say you don’t want too many extra limitations heaped on.

If you get mileage out of stranding players for 40 hours in every locale in order to create adventures for them, which I certainly understand, then discharging might be a bit more cumbersome operation. For sure, they’re going to be more vulnerable to boarding operations in such a scenario.

I think you can sometimes get the latter within the former. The rather routine leg from Serurier to Broward leaves your stutterwarp drive SCREAMING for discharge on arrival, no way around it. As does the very first leg of the journey into the French Arm, from Sol to Nyotekundu. In one adventure I ran, I wrecked the ship’s avionics in a star flare when players arrived there, trapped there with nowhere to go at explosive charge. Created an excuse to at least visit the place.

But I see the “gravistatic” charge/discharge more as a natural force more than mechanical procedure. Stutterwarp builds a tension that only a gravity well can relax, IM2300U.

Not only to maintain the arms, but also shapes the military opperations, If you know you must stay 40 hours in a system to discharge your stutterwarp, you plan it differently that if you plan to stay just 12 hours before taking the next step, as you're vulnerable for more than triple the time.

The 7.7 LY range (coupled with the 40 hours discharge) is, IMHO, the way to keep opperations from being too quick. If you know your enemy has to stay 40 hours in the system you saw them, you could go for reinforcementes knwoing that he will have to stop for 40 hours more in next system, while your forces are assemblying. It also makes for military opperations more risky, as if you travel 4 LY, you know there's no retreat, as you must spend 40 hours discharging, time that your enemy will not stay iddle, and for that long you cannot retreat (at least to the place you came from), as you'll go beyond your 7.7 limit. If you can discharge less time for less distance, just discharging a few hours (1 or 2, as you need only 0.4 LY more range) will allow you to retreat.

I see it as the need to refuel after each jump in CT (unless you make small jumps and have fuel reserve), as a means to slow military opperations (and communications, unless you have a ponney express system). Of course, YMMV.

Well, again, I don't see "maintaining orbit" as much of a problem. Newton takes care of a lot of that

To maintain orbit you must begin with a quite precise vector, or our orbit will be quite unestable.

And aramis has given us the in-system discharge rate, which makes the strains of stuttering around the inner solar system fairly unremarkable. The Earth to Mars runs only needs a second or two of discharge.

I disagree with Aramis here, as if you are into the 0.1 G threeshold of your star, the stutterwarp drive is quite unefficient, and if you are outside it, you are not discharging. I keep with my assertion that discharge is made (for purely in-system ships) at the time of maintenance.

But I would agree that it is bad practice overall to depart a system with any residual charge. No reason to do so, unless you're really in a hurry.

And here things difer if you must discharg for 40 hours or for 6 hours/LY, as if you need the 40 hours regardless the distance travelled, it will be more usual to make 2 legs in a row (without discharging) as long as they total less than 7.7 LY, so it will be quite more usual to depart with residual charge.

 

[rgrove0172]

Ill make my comment from a purely theatrical rather than scientific perspective.

To me what makes 2300 an interesting period to game in is the familiar and not to fantastic in the way of sci-fi tech. The limitations, dangers and ineffeciency - the unreliability and unproven aspects of technology make what is so mundane in your typical science fiction setting (aka. Traveller, Star Trek, StarWars) dramatic elements here.

Its the flavor of the setting that is made stronger by such technical nuances and limitations, complications and sometimes frustrations.

Star Wars - "Chewie, get the Falcon out of here now!"
Star Trek - "Chekov, Starbase IV, Warp 5"
2300AD - "Barnett, I want a pre-flight complete by 0700, we should have clearance for launch by then. Oh, and get hold of Pruitt, we just got a chart update and Im pretty sure the King run was included. He'll need to tweak his navs before we go FTL. Green, once we are in orbit I want you to let Newman have the controls till we make it out of the shallows, he needs the practice. You can take over again when we exit the threshold, and get the guys in engineering to check that stabilizer again. An hour reaching orbit with that damn rattlling going on is enough to drive me nuts."

 

[SpaceBadger]

I tend to see it this way: When you're within the .1G threshold, you're discharging built-up charge. No special switch to pull or process to engage, the way a surface dries when it is no longer immersed. The charge evaporates as long as you're within the threshold.

You can leave the threshold at any time, and the discharge will stop. New charges will build.

I like this idea a lot - and the rate of discharge could be 6 hours per ly of accumulated charge. Ships moving about insystem and spending any significant time in .1G at either end of their trips might never need to worry about discharge at all.

 

[rgrove0172]

I tend to see it this way: When you're within the .1G threshold, you're discharging built-up charge. No special switch to pull or process to engage, the way a surface dries when it is no longer immersed. The charge evaporates as long as you're within the threshold.

You can leave the threshold at any time, and the discharge will stop. New charges will build.

Gotta say, Im not a fan of the simplified approach. It takes an interesting and potentially dramatic element and casts it aside, similar to removing Han Solo's need to program the Falcon for its hyperspace jump. No more "it aint like dusting crops boy", cause in this case, it is. You just have to be in teh right place and it magically takes care of itself. Not much fun in that to my mind.

 

[McPerth]

I like this idea a lot - and the rate of discharge could be 6 hours per ly of accumulated charge.

See that, as I pointed before, this small changes has strong strategic implications. If you don't have to spend the full 40 hours in system: running a blockade may be quite easier, as during those 40 hours the enemy can come for you (at a speed of about 6 AU/day/warp efficiency it can come to you from quite far), while if you have to stay less time (and the enemy has no idea about how long will you stay discharging) they need to patrol more zones to intecept those blockade runners (and attack them with smaller forces, as they are divided to cover more zone).

Also in some cases routes may be even changed according to it.

Let's imagine a ship with warp efficiency 4 (let's make numbers easy) has to send an urgent message to a remote planet and there are two routes. Route A has 3 legs each of 4 LY, while Route B has 2 legs each of 7 LY.

If stutterwarp must discharge 6 hours per LY travelled (and probably may make partial discharges), Route A takes 24 hours for first leg, 24 more discharging, 24 more second leg, were it can discharge just 6 hours and can travel the last leg in 24 hours more, for a total of 102 hours, while route B takes 42 hours for the first leg, 42 more discharging and 42 more for the second leg, for a total of 126 hours, a day more (logical, as this route is 14 LY longs, while the other is 12).

If stutterwarp discharge lasts 40 hours regardless the distance traveller, though, the numbers for route A are 24 hours trip plus 40 discharge each of the two first legs and 24 for travel in the third, for a total of 152 hours, while the route B takes 42 for travel plus 40 in the discharge in the first leg and 42 more in the second one, for a total of 124 hours. In this case, the stops (if they need discharge) are the key factor, and the 14 LY one stop route is faster than the 12 Ly 2 stops one.

 

[LemnOc]

McPerth, I think all a flexible discharge rate does is make some destinations more troublesome and dangerous than other places. It does not treat every destination the same.

Some places, like the Serurier to Broward run, are going to be very problematic from a tactical/defense perspective, military ships arriving in a very compromised state. Commanders arrive at those areas in cold sweat. Other places less so.

So that adds even more texture and color to the game setting. Some systems are like the Khyber Pass or Straits of Gibraltar. Others not so much. Over time, those special places are going to be the sites of very historic battles. They become infamous places.

I see Arcturus, for example, with its big stellar velocity and its extensive asteroid fields, and proximity to the Kaefers, as being a place of dread, of submarine style warfare. As Anders Sandberg once said of it, it is impossible to defend, yet impossible to take. Like Kesserine.

 

[McPerth]

McPerth, I think all a flexible discharge rate does is make some destinations more troublesome and dangerous than other places. It does not treat every destination the same.

Some places, like the Serurier to Broward run, are going to be very problematic from a tactical/defense perspective, military ships arriving in a very compromised state. Commanders arrive at those areas in cold sweat. Other places less so.

So that adds even more texture and color to the game setting. Some systems are like the Khyber Pass or Straits of Gibraltar. Others not so much. Over time, those special places are going to be the sites of very historic battles. They become infamous places.

I see Arcturus, for example, with its big stellar velocity and its extensive asteroid fields, and proximity to the Kaefers, as being a place of dread, of submarine style warfare. As Anders Sandberg once said of it, it is impossible to defend, yet impossible to take. Like Kesserine.

Fully agreed. That's what I meant when I said it implies strategic changes. I don't say if they are good or bad (and less os for adventuring), just that things are different. What I point is that a change with such strategic implications should be well thought and explained, as may need some retcons about written history.

As told about, if you want to run the Kafer blockade to keep communications with Eta Botis, it would be nice to know you don't need to stop 40 hours to discharge, as in those 40 hours the blockading ships may as well come for you. If you are trying to stop kafer commerce raiders (like the Lone Wolf), you will hate it being able to leave earlier.

 

[rgrove0172]

Great points guys, I think Ive had a change of heart. The 40 hour minimum is probably a keeper, despite Traveller's declaration to the contrary. I think the fact that it takes that long, regardless of how much charge youve built up does lend toward some sort of process the ship has to go through to get the job done, rather than the simple presence of a gravity well.