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Subsector Fleet make-up in 1105

Chuck Anumia

SOC-14 1K
Let us start with the assumption that there are approximately 1,010 ships in a Sector fleet (+/- 10%).
With 1,010 ships per sector then there should be about 63 ships per subsector.
If the fleets of the subsector could be built around either the Battleship Configuration (BatCon with 1 to 3 Battleships and their support ships) or the Cruiser Configuration (CruCon with 6 to 8 cruisers and their support ships) Or Dreadnaught Configuration (a Tigress Class Dreadnaught with their support ships) What other support ships would be included in each subsector fleet?

Would there be a mix of tech levels? (12 to 14) (one TL12 Battleship and 2 TL 14 ships?)
Would there be a mix of jump capabilities?
How many escorts and logistic ships would be included?
Would each fleet have some form of a fighter/carrier capable ship included?
How many of each kind of ship would there be in the subsector fleet?
Would the fleets in contested subsectors be heavier and lighter in safer subsectors?
Would the make up differ greatly from year 900 to 1100?
 
I'll quote TheOz from an earlier fleet thread:
TheOz said:
[FONT=arial,helvetica]I like to keep the size of the fleets small, especially in a TCS campaign, so that the players feel the losses more. To lose one capital ship out of 30 isn't so bad, but to lose one out of 8, now that's different.
[/FONT]
[FONT=arial,helvetica]
[/FONT]Also note these earlier fleet threads:

Fleets in the Spinward Marches anno 1105
IN DesRons?
What's In a Fleet?

Squadron composition: err on the side of flexibility. A CruRon might also only have 2 cruisers as its core, similar to BatRons... and BatRons I presume may have up to 8 dreadnoughts in their core.

Tech Level mix: err on the side of flexibility, but tie it to the mission. If the squadron is a high-jump rating squadron, TL will be limited. TL is also constrained by the opponents expected -- if you're going against Zhodani, you'll need meson screens, for example, which limits your TL.
 
Squadron composition: err on the side of flexibility. A CruRon might also only have 2 cruisers as its core, similar to BatRons... and BatRons I presume may have up to 8 dreadnoughts in their core.
A unit with two combat vessels as its core is a division. For a squadron you'd need at least two divisions (though that would actually only be a half-squadron).

Assuming that the Imperium routinely operated with squadrons as small as two core vessels would come up against the need to account for the Imperium's naval budget and also conflict with the canonical statement in Rebellion Sourcebook about a sectors worth of fleets (16 fleets) having a 1000 combat vessels and fleets usually having 8-10 squadrons. To get that many ships per sector, fleets need to average 9 squadrons averaging 7 ships each. (And you have to assume that the statement only applies literally to sectors with a full 16 fleets -- for sectors with fewer fleets the total number would have to be lower).


Hans
 
Would there be a mix of tech levels?

that depends entirely on the combat rule-set being used. in hg2 a ship even one tech level below its opponent is at a very significant disadvantage. this is seen in real life as well - iraq's tech 7 combat force was completely outclassed and destroyed by the u.s.'s tech 8 force. so for fleet combat forces no, there will be no mix of tech levels.

support ships are another matter. their only requirements are 1) keep up with the fleet and 2) fulfill support duties. tech is not directly relevant to this.

Would there be a mix of jump capabilities?

absolutely not. a fleet functions as a unit or it is not a fleet, especially in traveller where jump is a one-week absolute barrier to communication.

How many escorts and logistic ships would be included?

imtu escorts are not fleet elements because they cannot fulfill escort duties in a traveller setting. scouts and screening ships are fleet elements. escorts have their own tasking such as providing minimal protection to logistics trains and facilities that are expected to come under commerce raiding attacks but not face major enemy fleet elements.

imtu logistics ships are provided mostly because the porozlo and junidy yards have huge capacity to do so. there are enough to support maintenance, hospital, and troop transport functions universally throughout the fleets. providing for supply and repair functions however requires more support dtonnage than can be supplied. providing adequate lighter support is almost impossible even for limited elements. supply, repair, and lighter support is available for high-priority offensive actions and little else.

Would each fleet have some form of a fighter/carrier capable ship included?

only if the combat rule-set in use enables fighters or other carried ships to have an effect on a battle.

How many of each kind of ship would there be in the subsector fleet?

1) as many combat ships as the yards can build and 2) as many support ships as are useful and which the yards can build.

Would the make up differ greatly from year 900 to 1100?

yes, vastly, depending on combat rule-set, opponent, and yard availability.
 
I didn't realise the US was using air/rafts, laser carbines and fusion power against the Iraqis.

At best you can say modern day is around TL 7.8

And yes this is a snide attack on the limitations of the TL scale ;)

As far as the thread title - if you go by FFW counters you will reach different conclusions to if you use MT and different again to Sector Fleet.
 
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Let us start with the assumption that there are approximately 1,010 ships in a Sector fleet (+/- 10%).
With 1,010 ships per sector then there should be about 63 ships per subsector.
If the fleets of the subsector could be built around either the Battleship Configuration (BatCon with 1 to 3 Battleships and their support ships) or the Cruiser Configuration (CruCon with 6 to 8 cruisers and their support ships) Or Dreadnaught Configuration (a Tigress Class Dreadnaught with their support ships) What other support ships would be included in each subsector fleet?

Would there be a mix of tech levels? (12 to 14) (one TL12 Battleship and 2 TL 14 ships?)
Would there be a mix of jump capabilities?
How many escorts and logistic ships would be included?
Would each fleet have some form of a fighter/carrier capable ship included?
How many of each kind of ship would there be in the subsector fleet?
Would the fleets in contested subsectors be heavier and lighter in safer subsectors?
Would the make up differ greatly from year 900 to 1100?

What are you trying to achieve? A setting where players can crash squadrons into each other, or an emulation of a given sector's likely naval force - and what sector? Answer to that results in different answers to your questions.

"Would there be a mix of tech levels?" Not in an emulation, at least not in Imperial space under the ship design rules currently available. Tech level is a major advantage in all of them, and the Imperium has been at TL15 for a rather long time, certainly long enough for the TL12/13 stuff to not only be retired but scrapped or turned into museums.

Below Imperial Navy level, depends. Easiest way for the Imperium to retire ships is to "sell" them to the colonials. MT Rebelllion Soucebooks mentions colonial squadrons being "equipped with obsolescent (but still serviceable) ships." That to me implies that the TL14 stuff drifts down to the colonials - which is consistent with the way the Fifth Frontier War boardgame handles it. However, some would argue that a colonial squadron should be limited to the local tech level, per TCS. Me, I have real problems thinking that the Imperials are going to build the far future equivalent of nuclear attack submarines and missile cruisers while the colonials they look to for support are left to build the far future equivalent of steam-powered ironclads. If the Imperials are depending on the Colonials to carry any weight, they'll make sure the ships used by the colonials are at least a credible threat in battle.

Of course, those without Imperial ties are left to their own devices. IMTU, the Swordies fly TL13 ships bought from the Zho and often serviced by Zho techs, simply because with only their own tech they wouldn't have any value as a military partner and wouldn't be the slightest threat to the Imperium.

"Would there be a mix of jump capabilities?" Yes, but not generally in the same fleet. High-jump ships are wonderfully "fast," able to outmaneuver slower fleets to respond to changing circumstances, to threaten the slower fleet's line of supply, or to strike fast and deep into enemy territory. They pay a steep price for that in firepower. Slower fleets can be impressively armed and armored - but they trudge along like cosmic turtles. In essence, you've got your slow "heavies" and your quick but less potent "lights" complementing each other and doing different missions on the strategic map.

"How many escorts and logistic ships would be included?" However many are needed - which in turn depends on your logistic rules, which there aren't many of out there from which to draw conclusions. That might be one where you make up whatever sounds reasonable, because there's not much to measure against. As to escorts, a fleet needs eyes forward, aft, and around - those are the escorts. How many are needed depends on what range their sensors have, what ranges weapons have, how tightly the core fleet units form themselves, and so forth, so enough to make sure the enemy's approach is detected in time for the fleet to prepare a response - and to make sure some light skirmisher doesn't penetrate close enough to obtain intelligence you don't want him to have.

If you're using High Guard, the other consideration is how long can they survive on the line covering the retreat of the big boys? You want your escorts to be able to survive a terrible beating for a brief interval when you want your important ships to try to make a break for it, so you need enough escorts to do that - and of course they need to be very agile and small enough to be a hard target.

"Would each fleet have some form of a fighter/carrier capable ship included?" Yes, but not a large one, and for some of the same reasons you need escorts. Fighters are of no use in battle, but in a system they can scout far afield of the fleet to see what's around, they are cheap enough and numerous enough to scatter if they meet substantial opposition, and they're cheap enough that no one but the next of kin will weep if they get destroyed gathering your intelligence. However useless they are in space battle, they are very, very useful in commerce raiding and ground attack - in the latter role, they're basically as good as any tank and a great deal faster. So, a fleet will most likely have a dedicated carrier to serve that role - most likely a variable number depending on what the fleet's current mission is. I'd expect the carriers to be attached and detached in an as-needed capacity, like other specialized support ships.

"How many of each kind of ship would there be in the subsector fleet?" Yeesh! Depends on what the need is. Too many variables for an easy answer.

"Would the fleets in contested subsectors be heavier and lighter in safer subsectors?" Maybe, maybe not. Canon says the Imperium moved away from the "crust" concept of heavy forces up close to the front because the opponent was still able to concentrate force and punch through the crust. Instead, they concentrated forces a ways back, close enough to come forward and get in front of the enemy's main axes of advance once they were known. Don't know how non-Imperial governments handle it.

"Would the make up differ greatly from year 900 to 1100?" Probably not for the Imperium, not for the type of ships composing the fleet. Lightning class cruisers, a TL14 design, were coming out in 993. Some of them were converted to frontier cruisers with a TL15 Factor-N meson spinal starting in 1080, so somewhere in there is the move from TL14 to TL15. Not such a great difference between TL14 and TL15 that it would alter the balance of the fleet - power plant improvement means more room for armor and weapons, but the balance doesn't change: mesons are still the wicked killer encouraging you to keep size down, fighters are still pretty much useless. Other places, I don't know.
 
A unit with two combat vessels as its core is a division. For a squadron you'd need at least two divisions (though that would actually only be a half-squadron). ...

Agreed, but the circumstances and missions do sometimes lend themselves to running a division or a half-squadron. It is more than a bit risky to call on Fifth Frontier War as a canon source for squadron deployment, but there are a few divisions and half-squadrons flying about in that game under the "squadron" name, and it does make some sense when you think of it. Two cruisers showing up with escorts and supports is a plenty impressive show of the flag in that nonaligned region between the Imperium and the Zho's, and a couple of dreadnoughts are most likely quite adequate for a reprisal into Vargr space to remind some local warlord to keep his puppies under closer reign. There are likely to be a handful of such special-duty "squadrons" running missions through the Marches under some commodore, even if one totally ignores FFW. However, I'd definitely consider them the exception.
 
1. Imperial doctrine is to assign at least one squadron of super dreadnoughts in each sector.

2. It appears that the Tigress class fulfills any requirements the Admiralty feels is necessary for that role.

3. The difference in TL allows the Imperium to deploy lower numbers of ships to deter naked aggression.

4. On reflection, Sector fleets are probably standardized in composition, with the exception of the one at the Capitol. This allows the Imperium to reinforce their frontier fleets from the interior knowing the axis of attack, and applying pressure along the entire front.

5. It's been implied that recent Imperium doctrine is to construct ships with specialized roles. It would appear that Imperium deployments tends to be a little more rigid as compared to their opponents, if the term squadron is any indication.
 
Under HG2 a TL 15 fleet has some pretty critical advantages over a TL14 one.
Smaller and more powerful spinals, factor 7-9 screens, a power plant that is now half the size, a higher computer rating.

Colonial forces can be any TL, but the IN has to be fully TL15 by 1105 to maintain its superiority over the Zhodani.

CT S9 explains how IN doctrine changed with time - from riders+tenders in the SM to battleships to allow more mobility in retreat, with the riders and tenders being held in reserve.
 
Let us start with the assumption that there are approximately 1,010 ships in a Sector fleet (+/- 10%).
With 1,010 ships per sector then there should be about 63 ships per subsector.
If the fleets of the subsector could be built around either the Battleship Configuration (BatCon with 1 to 3 Battleships and their support ships) or the Cruiser Configuration (CruCon with 6 to 8 cruisers and their support ships) Or Dreadnaught Configuration (a Tigress Class Dreadnaught with their support ships) What other support ships would be included in each subsector fleet?
subsectors?

Hi,

Id assume the named Sector Fleet retains the most potent high jump capability squadrons as a rapid relief force, in case of trouble, so I'd reduce the normal fleet to 52-56 major ships.

I'd also say to carry the necessary fuel the auxiliaries need to be BIG, as in bigger than the ships they are supporting.

I's also include Escort designs like the Ritchey class Escort in the Fleet total.

Kind Regards

David
 
Id assume the named Sector Fleet retains the most potent high jump capability squadrons as a rapid relief force, in case of trouble, so I'd reduce the normal fleet to 52-56 major ships.
According to Rebellion Sourcebook the named sector fleet is nothing more than all the numbered fleets in the sector. The subsector fleet in the sector duke's subsector is probably furnished with better ships than the other numbered fleets and it probably will have ten squadrons where other fleets only have eight or nine squadrons, and Sector HQ probably have a lot more couriers than the average fleet, but there is no such thing as a separate sector fleet on top of the numbered fleets.

I's also include Escort designs like the Ritchey class Escort in the Fleet total.
IMO only escorts big enough to (theoretically) carry a spinal would qualify as combat vessels, and (again IMO) there aren't many combatant ships that big that doesn't have a spinal, which would make them cruisers rather than escorts.


Hans
 
...IMO only escorts big enough to (theoretically) carry a spinal would qualify as combat vessels...

So, when we speak of ~1000 ships in a sector or ~63 ships in a numbered fleet, we mean ~63 capital ships, not 63 ships of all types 'cause there's no point in counting ships that don't have much punch. Ergo roughly 8 squadrons in a fleet.

That gives me 250-some billion Imperials in the Marches, with a total GWP 3.68 billion megacredits (Striker basis), funding 630 capital ships totaling 126,000,000 dTons plus tonnage for escorts and supports, plus the bases, infrastructure, and so forth. I don't really like that many capital ships running about but, considering how long ships can stay in service, that's actually a very conservative view. If it weren't for canon saying "about 1000," it could as easily be 10 times that many or more just based on the tax base.
 
The Imperium as a whole funds the IN, the SM being a frontier sector are going to get a bigger slice of that pie.

We don't know how extensive the IN auxiliary network is.

We don't know how much a naval base costs to construct or maintain.
 
IMO only escorts big enough to (theoretically) carry a spinal would qualify as combat vessels, and (again IMO) there aren't many combatant ships that big that doesn't have a spinal, which would make them cruisers rather than escorts.
Hans

What about the "up to 19,999dt" missile platforms? (I'm deliberately not calling them escorts, frigates, destroyers or cruisers so as to not derail the question. Also, you'll not see a 19,999dt ship from me, just noting the range of HG2 size modifiers.)

Missiles pack a huge wallop in all of the various Traveller rules and for those ships a spinal is both unnecessary and adds vastly to costs, due to Power Plant if nothing else.

As escorts they augment the secondary fires of Capital Ships and are perfectly capable of "holding the line". They can also operate independently in squadrons or, occasionally, alone.
 
What about the "up to 19,999dt" missile platforms? (I'm deliberately not calling them escorts, frigates, destroyers or cruisers so as to not derail the question. Also, you'll not see a 19,999dt ship from me, just noting the range of HG2 size modifiers.)
So call them 20,000T missile platforms.

Canon says escorts are up to 5000T. Canon also says that the term 'combat vessel' includes some escorts (emphasis mine). My calculations show that in order to spend the canonical Imperial naval budget, those canonical 1000 combat vessels per sector have to average substantial tonnage. In my calculations I go with an average of 300,000 for the battlerships and around 50,000 for the cruisers. To avoid having the cruiser average burdened by 5000T escorts costing a quarter of what the smallest light cruiser costs, I'm interpreting the 'some escorts' to be a) experimental, b) cruiser-sized, c) very few in number, and d) possibly used as fillers for lost cruisers in CruRons. I'm not sure about the last part.

Missiles pack a huge wallop in all of the various Traveller rules and for those ships a spinal is both unnecessary and adds vastly to costs, due to Power Plant if nothing else.
Then I'm sure there are a lot of 5000T escorts designed as missile platforms.


Hans
 
correct me if i am wrong on this one, but i was under the impression form reading this forum that HG did not track ammo, and/or require ships to put aside magazine space?
 
correct me if i am wrong on this one, but i was under the impression form reading this forum that HG did not track ammo, and/or require ships to put aside magazine space?

But that would be because HG fails to account for missile expenditure, not because there is no missile expenditure in "reality". So basing setting development on HG rules without taking such failures into account result in a clear case of GIGO.


Hans
 
It is an old computer saying, Garbage In, Garbage Out.

If you input bad/mistaken data or software commands, you get bad/mistaken output
 
A missile turret in CT has enough missiles for seven turns of fire (triple launcher has 9 missiles, the turret can store a further 12 according to SS3).

If you want to add ammo rules have 7 tally marks and cross them off as you use the missiles.

Original HG1 did have missile magazines as options, but didn't track turn by turn ammo. You could opt to launch them all in one go though.
 
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