Survival Margin

[Whipsnade]

T. Foster wrote:

"... as does the esteemed Mr. Whipsnade (though I notice by slight editorial gaffe that I refer to him by two different names

)."


Mr. Foster,

Please do not worry sir. Both names are correct and essentially interchageable at this point. For reasons that need not be discussed here, I'd adopted the 'Whipsnade' moniker upon joining the TML and quickly found that it had stuck. Believe me, worse things have been stuck to me before, so L.E. Whipsnade isn't any trouble at all.

May I congratulate you on your excellent Rebellion overview? The bibliography; a facet often overlooked in such articles, was an inspired addition, as were the thumbnail capsules of each product's content. A stole^^^ (ahem) downloaded copy already resides on my hard drive.


Sincerely,
Larsen, or Bill, or whatever you like

 

[T. Foster]

One of the many nice little ironies in TNE is that the reforms Norris successfully instituted in the Regency are seemingly very similar to the types of reforms Dulinor wanted for the Imperium as a whole. Remember Dave Nilsen's epitaph for Dulinor: "no one will remember what I stood for, only what I did."

As for the business with Dulinor's 'dirty tricks squad' and Ilelik Kuligaan's constant preaching and harranguing, I write that off as just another instance of Dave Nilsen's "rebellion 3.0" agenda of making all of the mainstream factions seem equally corrupt, hypocritical, and despicable so that we wouldn't sympathize with any of them and would actually be glad to see them wiped away by the Collapse. It serves the purpose of the TNE storyline, but for those of us who would rather play in a "1.0" rebellion with shades of gray rather than shades of black, it's probably best ignored (or at least de-emphasized).

P.S.: Larsen, thanks for the kind words.

 

[DED]

Originally posted by robject:
I just wonder what Lucan's thoughts were. Of course, he was a madman -- definitely a Caligula -- but probably an egomaniac, so where IS his journal?

This is purely speculation but it was probably annihilated along with everything else on Capital, whether from the power struggles from all the Viral factions through the years or from the victorious humanoid fleets during the Black Curtain War. With any luck, the truth shall be revealed by MJD in the TNE sourcebook.

 

[daryen]

Originally posted by DED:
With any luck, the truth shall be revealed by MJD in the TNE sourcebook.

MJD as already promised that Lucan will play a very important role in his TNE.

 

[Cymew]

Foster,

Let my add my voice to the praise! Excellent overview of a turbulent period in the history of the Imperium.

I have a very hard time understanding how so many of you can really know so much about that the different factions did during the rebellion. Maybe that bibiliography may help me catch up.

 

[theSea]

I have to agree on Survival Margin - great read, ties things up in a nice little package.

I'm chewing my way through Arrival Vengance now. Interesting read but has anyone actually managed to run the thing? It seems like it would be a great deal of work for the Ref.

Which brings me to one of my big problems with the MT product line in general... lack of focus. While I understand the desire to get out there and explore the entire Imperium (witness TD's Grand Tour) I rather think that the whole MT Rebellion "meta-plot" bit off a great deal more than it could conveniently chew.

CT pretty well focused on the Marches and the Rim - the Imperium was a great background against which all of this played, but a sector is a small enough area that you gain some focus. You can do a series of semi-interlocking adventures like Kinuir, Research Station Gamma, Twilights Peak and Secret of the Ancients. You can do the Traveller Adventure.

I still think that the Solomani Rim c. 1107 - 1114 is *ripe* for a Traveller Adventure type treatment.

But with the MT era things zoom way out and suddenly we're concerned with 10,000 worlds and not enough time or space to really get to know them (although DGP certianly tried!).

From what I recall reading MT was basically floating free through the middle of its run - with MM leaving GDW and development basically farmed out to DGP while GDW persued other interests (T:2k, 2300 et al).

Larsen definitly has a point - they really should have known where things were going before they started on the journey. Then they WOULD NOT have needed the viral deus ex machina to do a global reset on things... alas, everyone has 20/20 hind sight. Virus definitely shows signs of improvisation.

I rather think that from MT on, the desire to do something grand tended to overcome the desire to do something playable. Of all of the sourcebooks and published adventures I've managed to check out from the MT era, only Flaming Eye seems remotely playable out of the box.. but I'm still waiting on a few books.

In fact, from MT on - I'd almost assert that Traveller became more about Sourcebooks and less about Adventures - which is great if you've got a ref that can spin all of this stuff off the cuff... or an audience that is just reading the stuff and not playing it. For me, both as a Ref and as a Player the CT Adventures are easily as important as the CT Supplements.

I find it rather telling that TNE published a total of One Adventure.


As to the legality of the various claims on the Irridium throne... obviously whomever won would have had the legal claim. A decision by the Moot early on would have made a difference for sure - and I wonder why Lucan didn't simply await their decision with the Spire firmly under the guns of some ortillary.... but if things had come to a conclusionthe Moot would have ratified whatever de facto claim existed. As they always have.

Certianly the right of assasination vs. inheritance is a sticky one... which is why if you're going to asassinate an Emperor you make darn sure you get all of the heirs as well.

just my cr0.02

--michael

 

[robject]

Originally posted by Cymew:

I have a very hard time understanding how so many of you can really know so much about that the different factions did during the rebellion. Maybe that bibiliography may help me catch up.

Quite simply put: we're Traveller Geeks.

 

[daryen]

Originally posted by theSea:
Certianly the right of assasination vs. inheritance is a sticky one... which is why if you're going to asassinate an Emperor you make darn sure you get all of the heirs as well.

This discussion of which "right", assassination or inheritance, would win, has tricked me into thinking about this some.

In my opinion, Dulinor's error was not that Varian and Lucan survived. That is a red herring, as Margaret, at that point, is also a completely legitimate heir.

No, the real problem is that Dulinor ran away. If you are going to claim the throne by killing the emperor, you have to stay and prove you can keep it.

Dulinor forfeited his claim to the throne the moment he left capital. At that point he was merely a murderer and assassin.

 

[EvilDrGanymede]

Originally posted by theSea:
I find it rather telling that TNE published a total of One Adventure.

Though the TNE corebook contained 4 adventures, and I think there were a fewin Path of Tears too?

 

[T. Foster]

Originally posted by Evil Dr Ganymede:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by theSea:
I find it rather telling that TNE published a total of One Adventure.

Though the TNE corebook contained 4 adventures, and I think there were a fewin Path of Tears too? </font>[/QUOTE]I don't think POT contained any actual adventures (plenty of hooks, though), but its companion volume Smash & Grab was nothing but adventures -- not very good adventures IMO, but adventures nonetheless. Vampire Fleets also contained an adventure. And The Guilded Lilly was announced as the first part of a trilogy, so there should've theoretically been at least 2 more...

 

[saulweaver]

Originally posted by theSea:
As to the legality of the various claims on the Irridium throne... obviously whomever won would have had the legal claim.

It reminds me of US History class in High School. The teacher said that the civil war settled once and for all that states did not have the legal right to secede. Of course, if Gettysburg had gone the other way the reverse would be true.

Although the law is my business, I have little faith in it. Law is just force, and every lofty pronouncement of the courts and legistlature ultimately boils down to a sheriff with a Glock.

 

[Arsulon]

The question of legitmacy is tricky one. By the standards of Nietzschean "will to power" however, I think Lucan alone "deserves" the throne. Only Lucan is willing to take to the necessary steps to seize and maintain power: he shows initiative, persistence, and ruthlessness. Dulinor and Strephon consistently fail to take decisive action and seem to think the Iridium Throne will come to them if they just want it bad enough: part of the problem is that neither one of them DOES want it bad enough. Far from being senselessly cruel and brutal, Lucan is SENSIBLY cruel and brutal in pursuing a single-minded campaign to eliminate his rivals. The real question is cost. Lucan is mortgaging his future rule to the hilt. His tactics leave the Imperium's borders weakened, he squanders the goodwill of his subjects and the Moot, and he sets a dangerous precedent for any up-and-coming fleet admiral or sector govenor. If Lucan had suceeded, we probably would've seen a return to the Barracks Emperors period with the Solomani Rim replacing the Spinward Marches as the prime trouble spot.

Margaret is an interesting character because she is doing all the right things to MAKE the Iridium Throne come to her. Nothing suceeds like sucess, especially when it adds the polish of tradition and legitimacy (remember, she's next in line after Lucan.) She makes people recommend her, rather than recommending herself: in this sense, she's pursuing a course similar to Arbellatra, who realized the only sure way to lose was to pre-emptively declare yourself Empress. Of course, thanks to Rebellion 3.0 she becomes a far less viable choice. The DN agenda nulifies her personal and factional sucess by casting her as frigid slaver who likes to goof around with Strephon's sperm...

Oh, speaking of legitimacy, what was up with IRIS? Can anyone explain this to me? I was just as confused as Strephon in SM when they started popping up. Which Challenge mags do they appear in? They later get cast as not being totally legit themselves, don't they?

 

[T. Foster]

Originally posted by Arsulon:
Oh, speaking of legitimacy, what was up with IRIS? Can anyone explain this to me? I was just as confused as Strephon in SM when they started popping up. Which Challenge mags do they appear in? They later get cast as not being totally legit themselves, don't they?

They originally appeared in an article in Challenge #33 (carried over into #34) and IIRC they were tagged as optional/non-canonical. When the author of that article (Charles Gannon) later became GDW's Traveller line-editor, he naturally brought his pet creation with him into canon. However, since everybody except Gannon (and, apparently, COTI's Liam Devlin) thought IRIS was an exceptionally lame idea, when Dave Nilsen took over the Traveller reins he wasted no time in decanonizing IRIS (since he couldn't erase the mentions of them that had already made it into canon (via Hard Times and TNS Entries), he instead decided to "discredit and bury" them, thus Strephon's diary entries in Survival Margin). I don't agree with a lot of Dave Nilsen's capricious canon-revising, but I'm behind this one 100%.

 

[EvilDrGanymede]

Originally posted by Arsulon:
Oh, speaking of legitimacy, what was up with IRIS? Can anyone explain this to me? I was just as confused as Strephon in SM when they started popping up. Which Challenge mags do they appear in? They later get cast as not being totally legit themselves, don't they? [/QB]

I see them as a bunch of lawyers who got together and decided to throw the book at the various 'Emperors'. Given that the laws of succession they were basing their arguments on were (presumably) public knowledge and fairly unassailable, I imagine most of the 'Emperors' couldn't really argue with their logic. Apart from Lucan of course, who just shot the IRIS representative

.

 

[daryen]

Originally posted by Evil Dr Ganymede:
Apart from Lucan of course, who just shot the IRIS representative

Probably the most sane thing Lucan ever did.

 

[robject]

Originally posted by Arsulon:
The question of legitmacy is tricky one. By the standards of Nietzschean "will to power" however, I think Lucan alone "deserves" the throne. Only Lucan is willing to take to the necessary steps to seize and maintain power: he shows initiative, persistence, and ruthlessness. Dulinor and Strephon consistently fail to take decisive action and seem to think the Iridium Throne will come to them if they just want it bad enough: part of the problem is that neither one of them DOES want it bad enough.
[...]

That resonates a bit with me, but I want to know how much of that is David Nilsen's spin on the whole shebang.

Rather, I'd like to know what people think about Survival Margin as a vector. It's brilliantly orchestrated, but is it likely that Dulinor should waffle? Actually, I suppose so, seeing as he made a cowardly assassination and then ran.

But Strephon... it can go both ways. Reading the "Wounded Colossus" paper got me to thinking that Nilsen might have been a wee bit too eager to wipe the slate clean...

 

[MJD]

The slate is not clean. Smudged and almost illegible, but not clean///

 

[kaladorn]

Pardon my throwing in my 0.02 CR.....

I have to point out two things:

A prior poster suggested Lucan as the most legitemate candidate by a bit of Neitzchean reasoning. But he alluded to the reason I disagree with his conclusion - Lucan's own policies were leading to the destruction of that which he wanted to control. Any resolution he may or may not have had is irrelevant once that fact becomes apparent. In fact, with the exception of Norris, Margaret, and the Duke of Albadwi (sp?), the lot that were running the Empire did a singularly bad job of looking ahead and of seeing what the outcome of their personal hubris would be (obviously casting some doubt on the Imperial concept of having key men governing because of the vast gulfs.... apparently this government by the elite eventually got stale and the gene pool rather... stagnant).

I was interested by some reference to Margaret and Slaving or some other nefarious activities. Is this (some kind of) canon? If so, where from?

Also, as to the whole IRIS thing, Liam may not be the only one who thinks it is a good idea. I'll include myself. It may not fit in all TUs, but it makes sense to me that any system like the Empire should have checks and balances, and having a body whose only power is to disolve a government (essentially by failing to legitemize it) makes a good check, especially if the members of the group aren't easily identified and influenced.

 

[Arsulon]

kaladorn,

I take it you're arguing Lucan's sucessful seizure and maintenance of power is invalidated by the fragmentation of the Imperium? There's something to this: you'll remember I noted he was mortgaging his reign to the hilt. One imagines the situation might not have been totally lost if Lucan hadn't been on the throne; for example, would Antares have seceeded if Varian was emperor? Would Varian have denounced Strephon's return out of hand, thus creating yet another faction? Still, of all the outstanding (i.e. declared) claimants to the throne, Lucan has the most staying power: he continues to fight for a unified Imperium when Strephon throws in the towel due to moral exhaustion and Dulinor declares a Federation of Ilelish. On the other hand, Machievelli would agree with you. He gets a bad rap for writing "the ends justifies the means" but he actually concludes later on that a ruler who comes to power through brutality and cruelty has hamstrung his future reign, and is inherently less worthy than a prince who suceeds through virtue.

The villification of Margaret takes place largely in TAS articles, which you can find collected nicely in Survival Margin itself. One of her nobles seems to be using slave labour (the Geonee, I think) and Margaret is characterized as looking the other way becasue the noble is her biggest ship-builder. She is also characterized as not having the common touch, and being cold and unsympathetic (especially in Arrival:Vengeance, which sports a picture of her looking very icy indeed.) TAS also has her making a ludicrous announcement that she's impregnated herself with Strephon's frozen sperm and thus is carrying the uber-legit heir to the throne.

I think most of the people who object to IRIS have no problem with the concept of the institution, but rather how it was handled (see the earlier post on how DN de-canonized them.)

 

[kaladorn]

Originally posted by Arsulon:
One imagines the situation might not have been totally lost if Lucan hadn't been on the throne; for example, would Antares have seceeded if Varian was emperor? Would Varian have denounced Strephon's return out of hand, thus creating yet another faction?

Well, that's hard to say. We really don't know a lot about Varian. One also wonders what would have been different if Iolanthe or Ciephegenia (sp?) ended up on the throne.

I think I'm going to 'restage' Dulinor's assassination in my universe and play it out. I think anyone using MT rules would have a hell of a time getting 4 kills in 4 shots with a magnum revolver (*grin*). And there is a certain presumption of incompetence on behalf of the Imperial Gaurd that is interesting. The truth is, the Emperor should be gaurded by people who have little or no interest in local politics and whose only meal ticket is the Emperor, so they don't have divided loyalties. If they don't speak much local lingo (or none at all), all the better. But that's a separate line of thinking. Since I plan to follow canon up to the start of the rebellion (Dulinor's attempt), I don't have to resolve my own counter scenario right yet (my players are in 1114)... but it is coming.... and I will have to address it.

The villification of Margaret takes place largely in TAS articles, which you can find collected nicely in Survival Margin itself. One of her nobles seems to be using slave labour (the Geonee, I think) and Margaret is characterized as looking the other way becasue the noble is her biggest ship-builder.

That's probably just pragmatism. She might not like it, but it might also be something she has to put up with. Or maybe there are... other factors... we don't know about.

She is also characterized as not having the common touch, and being cold and unsympathetic (especially in Arrival:Vengeance, which sports a picture of her looking very icy indeed.) TAS also has her making a ludicrous announcement that she's impregnated herself with Strephon's frozen sperm and thus is carrying the uber-legit heir to the throne.

We're judging this by some sort of 20th century morality.... people who geneer themselves, who use anagathics, who rule over trillions of individuals, etc.... we probably don't have the same social or moral context. They may well see this as a perfectly legitemate route to 'legitemate' succession, for all we cringe at the incestuous (sort of) angle here. Many of our incest taboos formed probably as a result of the practical concerns of genetics.... assuming they are removed by high tech and have been for thousands of years.... then maybe that valuation no longer applies. Maybe this isn't as 'gross' as it seems to us today.

Plus, historical nobility is full of incestuous stuff....

I think most of the people who object to IRIS have no problem with the concept of the institution, but rather how it was handled (see the earlier post on how DN de-canonized them.)

Oh, well. Yes, I'd object to the handling of it subsequently.

I don't like SM/TNE/Virus, but OTOH, I'm sure the people living through the first Long Night didn't really like what was happening then either.....