T5 LBB's in a box - artists impression

[Takei]

I thought the LBBs in a box pic looked great but I tend to agree that it would probably sell mainly to existing fans.

As far as the best format goes I recently picked up a copy of Big Eyes Small Mouth and am really impressed with it's format (A5 glossy book with plenty of good art.) OK they have the anime advantage as far as artwork is concerned so it may not be a great example. The A5 format doesn't seem to have hurt sales though.

I'd like to see T5 use the small book format but the package would have to be very well done to compete in today's market.

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Paul

 

[Elliot]

Much is made of 'the market' and attracting new players with slick art. I don't really think that argument stands up - Traveller is 25 or so years old, it does not have a TV series and so its position in the market place is to a degree based on (1)nostalgia (2)its rules system and (3) its setting. On (1), I say that the minimalism of the LLB design is a Traveller signature and is more likely to appeal than sticking something slick and glossy. As to the rules, I started on D&D and went to Traveller as a new player today might go from D20 to T5. The setting is also a thing of nostalgia and so it is better to sell it as such as that is the market heartland.

If as is suggested 'the market' will only sustain the D20 system with slick (I think c**p)art, then there is no point in bringing out T5. In the era 1977--1997 AD&D always had market dominance , yet an inumerable number of RPG's still came out and maintained a share of the market. I frankly don't see what has changed in 'the past year' except that WoC has 'down-sized' AD&D from TSR's over development into a more market viable commodity.

 

[Blue Ghost]

hunter; that's really great to hear.

I always thought his work was fantastic, and was always sad that I didn't get to see more Traveller stuff by him.

Elliot; I agree with your three points, but I think the idea is to expand the fan/player base. And to bring in new people you need to tap the same markets and age brackets that Traveller tapped many years ago. That means younger players in some instances. And I'll confess right here and now that I turned away from Traveller the late 70s because of Keith's undisciplined sketches. Call me superficial, prejudiced, and all other things, but it's true. I could not stand those sketches, and thought that Traveller, as it was then, was probably just another RPG using local hack talent to spruce up the material. I'm glad I was wrong.

 

[Tsarith DeGaalth]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Takei:
As far as the best format goes I recently picked up a copy of Big Eyes Small Mouth and am really impressed with it's format (A5 glossy book with plenty of good art.) OK they have the anime advantage as far as artwork is concerned so it may not be a great example. The A5 format doesn't seem to have hurt sales though.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>[/b]

Chaosium uses a similiar format for Hero Wars. I have both games and the book size is great - Its easy to carry/use and doesn't break my back like full size books do. If T5 is going to be in a size other than 8.5x11, this is the format I would like to see.

 

[Shadow Bear]

I also had trouble getting to view the page first quoted. I got a 404 message. This page comes in clear and sharp.

The concept looks fantastic. This package would go to the top of my MUST BUY list.
I Agree. LBB is the preferred format for Traveller rules. I also wish to see CD-ROMs for things like starship design, character/NPC generation, sectors maps and the like.

Take the good developments for AD&D (lots of adventures and sourcebooks, CD based software and data) and forget massive hardcover books and massive rules changes (like 3rd edition).

 

[Secrect Cow Level]

I LIKED the artwork of William Keith in the CT materials. It creates a more vivid picture of the Third Imperium than any written account ever could.I also like it much more than the dark gothic style of art published in more recent sci-fi games (like ALTERNITY). I'd much rather they reprinted William Keith's artwork over using the art of r.k. post (although his art in the D&D DIABLO books is top notch...).

 

[Gallowglass]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Shadow Bear:

<snip>

Take the good developments for AD&D (lots of adventures and sourcebooks, CD based software and data) and forget massive hardcover books and massive rules changes (like 3rd edition).<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

And that, gentlebeings, is precisely the point, IMO. I believe T5 should be a new game, learning from the lessons of the last two and a half decades. But as it is Traveller 5, I think it must also have some continuity with the Traveller tradition of those two and a half decades. That means, IMO, acknowledging the WHOLE OTU timeline (ROM, M0, M200, Rebellion, Virus and New Era) and beyond. It means retaining enough compatibility with previous versions to allow the established fan base to use the material published. It should also, IMO, recapture Traveller's position as the pre-eminnet SF RPG and to do that it will need to have both a distinctive brand image (which the LBB stark design has in spades) and a clean flexible rules set. And it needs to convince paying customers to part with their money and LBB format has a huge advantage there, because provided the material is good enough, LBB format books are going to provide better value for money that burglar stunning 256page hardbound A4 monsters...(

)


[This message has been edited by Gallowglass (edited 09 July 2001).]

 

[TimAllan]

Just downloaded and viewed the artists impression, most excelent. The small ammount of box cover art is very stlyish.

 

[Myscha the sled dog]

It rocks :0

 

[evilpheemy]

Oh, if T5 came out like that, I'd snatch it up in a moment! I'd buy two, just so I could keep one at the office! WHY are you not on the design team????

 

[lucasdigital]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by evilpheemy:
Oh, if T5 came out like that, I'd snatch it up in a moment! I'd buy two, just so I could keep one at the office! WHY are you not on the design team????<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Thanks for the kind words.

If Marc is interested I would be delighted to contribute art for free...by way of thanks for the thousands of hours of enjoyment that Traveller has given me!

Mk



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Mark Lucas
Lucas-digital.com

 

[Loops of Fury]

I just found out about this board, read this topic first, and wanted to say that the T5 LBB conceptualization is one of the best things I've seen in a long time.

I understand that many feel it's too stark or plain for today's market, but frankly, it was that very same starkness that reached out and grabbed me when I first started gaming umpteen years ago. The LBBs didn't look like anything else on the market at that time either. From a marketing perspective, you would think the goal is to stand out, not blend in with all the other glossy hardcover books out there.

As for interior artwork, it was too sparse in the original books, but primitive and/or B&W does not have to mean bad. The original Vampire book has some of the best art I've ever seen in an RPG, and it's mostly "primitive" B&W watercolor (with some black ink drawings as well). The artwork in D&D's Planescape products could also be described as "primitive" and "muted", but that's near the top of my list as well.

That said, I do think the "photo" on the top of the box looks wonderful, and would probably work just as well on the cover of each individual book.

 

[Gatsby]

Agreed, except keep the LBBs as LBBS (no book cover art).

I think everyone is too concerned with 'the changing market'.

Some points:

• As fans of Science Fiction Literature, we should know that the market is pretty much the same as it has been since the first cro-mag chose one bunch of bannanas over the other...humanity responds to the same stimuli as it did in 1975 and straying afield to look for that mythical 'market impetus' is not a primary focus...a good game is the primary concearn. (Why do you think Trek is going, somewhat, back to it's roots? Yeah, there is an update from the 1960s pastel colors, but all the beautiful effects did not sell Voyager...)
  
• I think it must be restated that only one person buys the game off the shelf - and then the game, itself, must convince his group to buy more rules/supplements/etc later.
  
• The group seldom sees the interior art to begin with, unless it is to illustrate the fictional universe by showing a realy cool example of a tough-to-explain concept/character type/battlefield moment.
  
• Artwork shouldn't just be scattered about for artwork's sake...it serves a purpose: to inspire. "Hey, that's a cool looking Zhodani Combat armor!", as the player reads about Zhos....
  
• That first person sale is your 'box-art' target - his tastes/likes/dislikes. With Traveller, I hope, that target person is a person that reads a lot of science-fiction. You really have to NOT show flashy examples of what is NOT in the game rules (dinosaurs may be popular, but the guy who buys the box is going to want to play dinosuars and he'll feel cheated, wheras the Science Fiction fan ignores the cheesey dinosaur cover as another poor science fiction example). The cover art from TNE was pretty good, IMHO, and I really can't see the LBB-example artwork - I am not sure what's going on there..is that a Express boat?(I am sure it is impressive, though! I just can't see it well on my moniter...)
  
  So what does the LBB format do, as by the previous list?
  It is an efficient, streamlined set of rules. Not too complex and straightforward. It gives a military feel.
  The artwork in the previous example of T5 LBB box is perfectly placed and of the right shade intensity to not disrupt this feel or distract from that concept and there is no frame-lines to segment it from the black background, further blending into the concepts. The artwork is there to state that this isn't a technical manual, though, it is a game of adventure. And the back of the box should really stress this concept in both text and graphics.
  
  Gats'

 

[Secrect Cow Level]

The original LLB's didn't have artwork on the cover because cover art costs money that GDW didn't have to spend back in 1977. As time went on and TRAVELLER products were making the company money, they began to put artwork on the covers (i.e. The TRAVELLER Book, The TRAVELLER Adventure, the Alien modules, ect.). The gaming industry has changed a lot over the years and cheap production values scream a bad game even if it is actually good. The D&D3e books don't have artwork on the covers, but do have catchy cover schemes (especially the Mnoster Mannual which looks loke it's bound in dragonhide). Somebody who has never played TRAVELLER before might look at such a cover and think, "if they didn't bother to put any thought into the cover, they probly didn't put any thought into the game either". Like it or not, we live in an age of visual media and companies that don't understand that when marketing new products are the ones who lose money.

 

[Gatsby]

Respectfully disagree......and you give me the reason why:

Player's Handbook/Monster Manual/TSR games- no real cover art, just a 'background' symbolizing it's genre.

Vampire/Werewolf/WhiteWolf games- no real cover art, just a 'background' symbolizing it's genre.

Two succesful games/game companies.

Traveller- no real cover art, just a 'background' symbolizing it's genre????


Gats'

 

[FlightCommanderSolitude]

I'd have to disagree as well; the cover of something can be wonderfully designed, very visually stunning and memorable, and not have a single picture on it.

Case in point: http://cover2.cduniverse.com/CDUCoverArt\music\72438419372.jpg

-FCS

 

[hunter]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Secrect Cow Level:
The original LLB's didn't have artwork on the cover because cover art costs money that GDW didn't have to spend back in 1977. As time went on and TRAVELLER products were making the company money, they began to put artwork on the covers (i.e. The TRAVELLER Book, The TRAVELLER Adventure, the Alien modules, ect.). The gaming industry has changed a lot over the years and cheap production values scream a bad game even if it is actually good. The D&D3e books don't have artwork on the covers, but do have catchy cover schemes (especially the Mnoster Mannual which looks loke it's bound in dragonhide). Somebody who has never played TRAVELLER before might look at such a cover and think, "if they didn't bother to put any thought into the cover, they probly didn't put any thought into the game either". Like it or not, we live in an age of visual media and companies that don't understand that when marketing new products are the ones who lose money.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I have to completely agree on this one. Products released with a more visually appealing cover will draw the interest of both distributors and players more than a basic non-graphical cover.

If I were to product T20 with the old black/red/text style cover and one with a graphical cover, the graphical version would greatly outsell the non-graphic cover version.

Hunter

[This message has been edited by hunter (edited 23 August 2001).]

 

[Captain Black]

I think that you could do it half-and-half. Have say, the upper 1/4 of the cover have the old black and red "Traveller" banner (like we see at the top of this page we're on) and have the bottom 3/4 be a cool piece of art. Then you have the best of both worlds. Tried and true "Product Recognition" with "Eye-Catching Artwork". For supplements, you could use the different colors like they used in the old LBB's and on the Classic Reprints they are doing nowadays.

I seriously think that would be pretty sharp!

 

[lucasdigital]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Gatsby:
I really can't see the LBB-example artwork - I am not sure what's going on there..is that a Express boat
Gats'<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Heres a better view which should be very clear even on the worst monitor.
http://www.lucas-digital.com/T5/BOXCOVER.jpg

The illustration was completed in about eight minutes out of cast off renderings and a Photo I stole from a publicity still from the movie Event Horizon.

I am well miffed that you didn't identify the Scout ship, it was built at an earlier time using Caligari trueSpace 3D modelling software.

As someone who went through design training I can tell you now that the sparse quality of the LLB's was wonderful but you simply can't sell them in todays market.( So put them in a box with some lush artwork!!).

Like myself you traveller vets see the LBB's and are immediately filled with warm feelings. Believe me when I say that when people who never bought the LBB's glance towards a new minimalist LBB they won't see it, their busy little eyes will be carried off to some other place.

Mk


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Mark Lucas
Lucas-digital.com

 

[Takei]

I've just looked at the latest piccy and must say that it looks really nice.

I'd be another voice for plain LBBs in a stylish box. I'd also add to have a book of tables as per Starter Traveller. That's what I take to conventions when I don't want to haul around loads of stuff.

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Paul