T5 Melee

[Hemdian]

(Cross-posted from FB)

Has anyone used the T5 melee rules? Did you use the rules as written or use house rules? In my game last night, two PCs got into an unarmed sparring match and … the results were less than stellar:


Shesen, BD7xxx, has Fighting-0 … giving her an MN of 11. Yuliana, ACCxxx, has Fighting-6 and Unarmed-1 … giving her an MN of 17. The rules as written say to hit is 2D ≤ Attacker’s MN - Defender’s MN + Mods.

• Shesen tries to hit Yuliana: 2D ≤ -6 … 0%. Even if she allocates all her Dex pool, that’s still only 2D < 7 … 58% … after which she can’t hit at all.
• Yuliana tries to hit Shesen: 2D ≤ 6. So, without using her Dex pool, she misses slightly more than she hits (42%) … but at least she can hit.

I’ve seen suggestions to instead make this 2D ≤ Attacker’s MN (opposed) … which seems logical but that just makes it mostly both sides roll 2D regardless of assets and the lower hits (except when Shesen rolls 12).


If no one has anything better, I was thinking of using 2D ≤ Attacker’s MN … with an extra die per asset the defender has higher. Thus:

• Shesen tries to hit Yuliana: 4D ≤ 11 … 24%
• Yuliana tries to hit Shesen: 3D ≤ 17 … 99%

What say you?

 

[robject]

I'm into a simple solution -- so in a plain old brawl, I like 2D <= MN, and add a die for advantages.

I guess the rules are suggesting that melee fights are difficult and must be made easy by using the rules in some way. Whatever THAT is. Advice on how to REALLY run melee fighting is therefore needed. I wonder what that is.

I suppose there would need to be a way to make the task EASY...

And even then, I suppose damage would have to be significant, so that melee combat doesn't last forever.

 

[robject]

Book 1 Page 203 has exactly the example you're describing.

***
Imperial Sergeant Cayne 756977 Fighting-0 MN 7 has a disagreement with rival Sergeant Corbett 756776 Fighting-0 MN 7 and it devolves into a fight. They look evenly matched to start: when Cayne starts, AMN minus DMN is 0, and the same is true when Corbett responds. They are landing blows, but to no real effect.

In the next round, Cayne again swings without success, but when Corbett responds, he allocates all 5 of his Dexterity: AMN 7 +5=12 minus DMN 7. Corbett must roll 5 or less on 2D. He rolls 7, and finds his ploy was for nothing.

The fight goes back to useless sparring until Round 6 when their Endurance wears down. Both Cayne and Corbett are reduced to 1D in their attacks. Cayne finally allocates all of his Dexterity-5 to his AMN 7 for 12 minus Corbetts DMN 7= 5 or less on 1D. Alas, his ploy also fails as he rolls 6.

Corbett is stalemated as he tries to roll (7 - 7=) 0 on 1D. Their comrades finally break up the fight declaring it a draw, and the two sergeants avoid each other for the next few days.
***

So, the concept is that two evenly matched people will not be able to win against the other without something extra that unbalances the contest. And, that "luck" is not that something. Newton's First Law, kind of.

 

[robject]

So the sense I am getting is that the entire melee fight tends to be thrown onto the hopes of one ploy from one side:

The first attacker to throw all his Dex points behind one tactic has the best chance to do some damage.

If the defender is still in the fight after that, then his opportunity is to throw all of his Dex points to one tactic.

If both are still standing after that, the match is likely to end in a draw.

If both decide to spend their Dex at the same time, the tactics tend to be wasted, cancelling each other out.

Kind of a prisoner's dilemma.

 

[robject]

And finally, the conclusion I draw is that there are three melee fights (I could be wrong):

(1) The duel. One attacks first with everything he's got, and then the other. Then the score is considered settled.

(2) The delaying action. One side's goal is to keep the other engaged for some amount of time, presumably as a diversion.

(3) The barroom brawl. Consists of many "melee fights"; Since the goal is to hit someone different every turn, each exchange could arguably be considered a new melee. This is probably a referee's call, but it would seem to emulate the brawl well, with the right results (lots of wounded unconscious people). You could maybe argue that each new opponent infuses fresh energy into the situation. Frankly any handwave would do, and I think players won't really care about the reasoning...

 

[Fovean]

If no one has anything better, I was thinking of using 2D ≤ Attacker’s MN … with an extra die per asset the defender has higher. Thus:

• Shesen tries to hit Yuliana: 4D ≤ 11 … 24%
• Yuliana tries to hit Shesen: 3D ≤ 17 … 99%

This seems elegant. And feels very player-facing, which is a good thing IMO.

 

[Hemdian]

I was reminded on FB of the TIH rule. So applying that to the opposed task option, ignoring the Dex pool and fatigue rule for the moment, we get …

Each round, Shesen tries to hit Yuliana (3D ≤ 11) and Yuliana tries to hit Shesen (2D ≤ 17) … and the lowest *successful* result wins.

If my math is right, that works out as Shesan hits 16%, Yuliana hits 77%, and both hit 7%. I think that sounds about right.

[Note that if both roll 12, this is not a draw as it is a fail for Shesen, so the win would go to Yuliana.]

(I'll keep the extra die per asset trick for another time.)

 

[ThornPlutonius]

I am working on a complete overhaul of the melee RAW. I don't like melee RAW at all. I am working with using something much closer to task RAW and using C2 as the base characteristic instead of C1/Strength. It will account for the effect of a creature/sophont attempting melee outside of its natural environment (e.g., an Agi based creature attempting melee on "the ground" (the natural environment of Dex-based entities) instead of in atmosphere), allow one to engage multiple opponents in a single melee round, and choose whether or not to actively defend against an opponent (easier to land a blow if one is not actively defending, but not actively defending does make it easier for the opponent to land a blow, too). C1/Strength will affect what weapons might be wielded and how much damage can be delivered per hit.

 

[ShawnDriscoll]

If no one has anything better, I was thinking of using 2D ≤ Attacker’s MN … with an extra die per asset the defender has higher. Thus:

• Shesen tries to hit Yuliana: 4D ≤ 11 … 24%
• Yuliana tries to hit Shesen: 3D ≤ 17 … 99%

That looks way better.

 

[Hemdian]

I am working on a complete overhaul of the melee RAW. <snip>

Those are some interesting points. I look forward to seeing what you come up with.

 

[Hemdian]

That looks way better.

RL delayed the last session. But next time I'll run both options past my group and see which they feel more comfortable with.

 

[Talassa]

Why not to use a Melee system more like CT, within the framework of T5?

1. Both roll at the same time with their MTN (you can apply as mod -melee skill of adversary, for parry)
2. Both calculate damage and apply it at the same time.

Am I mistaken in thinking that melee rules as written seem to apply more to a barroom brawl between allies than something else?