T5 VehicleMaker
- Thread starter tjoneslo
- Start date
EXECUTIVE SUMMARY
Like CT's High Guard, knowing how the components in VM work together helps build things well. That comes through learning the system via trial and error. Also like High Guard.
LONG VERSION
There is nothing basic or simple in designing vehicles, and VM is no exception. It just has fewer steps and more assumptions, and hopefully those assumptions are often-enough reasonable to make the system fast and useful. Just about every vehicle in VehicleMaker takes about the same amount of effort -- although with time, as with all processes, you learn the ins and outs of it.
The question I am working on is this: how can Marc's numbers for VM be presented in a better way, and what tweaks to the numbers in VM can be rationally posed to Marc? (And by rational, I mean the sort of thing that makes Marc say to himself, "I want VM to support XYZ, and by golly it doesn't do that right!"). Because that's how VM will improve.
For example, how do I build Zhodani warbots with VehicleMaker? Since Marc loves thinking about the Zhodani, this is a hot-button that might get his attention and cause him to, for example, define negative tonnages in a useful way, maybe as fractions of a ton rather than as invalid designs. There's an erratum/suggestion to log. Who knows. But if VM should support canon, then use canon as the means to get to Marc.
Process
So when I use VehicleMaker, I have to try different things to get what I want, and I usually look at several variations and strategies. I don't get what I want on the first try, and often have to settle for something that's close enough.
This is a side effect of built-in assumptions about vehicles. Contrast this with, say, GURPS: Vehicles, where you build exactly what you want, exactly to your specs. That is, if you're one of the 2D-2 people in the world who use G:V more than twice.
In the end, learning how the various components work together helps to use VehicleMaker well. This is not unlike CT's High Guard, where a knowledge of the breakpoints in the weapon factors versus defenses was not just useful, but critical to designing warships. Remember your first warship for High Guard? Maybe it was a good 'un. I remember my first ships for Trillion Credit Squadron: they were pathetic.
People Mover, Small
I can get at the small people-mover by playing with the various options. Yes, many options don't work together when you put them together in certain combinations. Some do.
I take "Zero" tons as being less than one ton -- but the rules don't say this, nor do they explain what possible meaning a negative tonnage means (does it mean "this is an invalid design", or something else?). The rules don't explain this, because the text has not been updated to account for it. That, at least, is an erratum. And I don't know if I logged it, or someone else did, or if noone did.
Anyway, this TL-11 craft has a load of 1.5 tons -- without the rules handy I don't know if you seat four people to the ton or two, but that's at least a two-seater.
It has an unusable speed of 7. I say "unusable" because it's open. Unless there's an impressive windshield. Maybe there is. I think I'd rather just say that this thing has plenty of pep, and is dangerous in the hands of the inexperienced.
Wheeled variant. Note that the Wheeled version is about the same, except the TL drops to 7.
Cargo Truck
While I can't get something reasonable to haul 8 tons, I can get it to 6:
Seven tons, capable of hauling six tons of payload. Its speed is 4, decidedly slow, but this thing is hauling cargo, and it probably assumes a bulky cargo. I suspect that if I simply scaled the vehicle tonnage up a reasonable amount (say 33% to 9 tons), that I could also scale load tonnage up similarly to 8 tons. Is that cheating? There's no rule that says I can, and therefore how can a published document do such a thing? So that could be another erratum worth suggesting.
The grav version is a bit smaller at three times the cost.
Like CT's High Guard, knowing how the components in VM work together helps build things well. That comes through learning the system via trial and error. Also like High Guard.
LONG VERSION
tjoneslo said:
There is nothing basic or simple in designing vehicles, and VM is no exception. It just has fewer steps and more assumptions, and hopefully those assumptions are often-enough reasonable to make the system fast and useful. Just about every vehicle in VehicleMaker takes about the same amount of effort -- although with time, as with all processes, you learn the ins and outs of it.
The question I am working on is this: how can Marc's numbers for VM be presented in a better way, and what tweaks to the numbers in VM can be rationally posed to Marc? (And by rational, I mean the sort of thing that makes Marc say to himself, "I want VM to support XYZ, and by golly it doesn't do that right!"). Because that's how VM will improve.
For example, how do I build Zhodani warbots with VehicleMaker? Since Marc loves thinking about the Zhodani, this is a hot-button that might get his attention and cause him to, for example, define negative tonnages in a useful way, maybe as fractions of a ton rather than as invalid designs. There's an erratum/suggestion to log. Who knows. But if VM should support canon, then use canon as the means to get to Marc.
Process
So when I use VehicleMaker, I have to try different things to get what I want, and I usually look at several variations and strategies. I don't get what I want on the first try, and often have to settle for something that's close enough.
This is a side effect of built-in assumptions about vehicles. Contrast this with, say, GURPS: Vehicles, where you build exactly what you want, exactly to your specs. That is, if you're one of the 2D-2 people in the world who use G:V more than twice.
In the end, learning how the various components work together helps to use VehicleMaker well. This is not unlike CT's High Guard, where a knowledge of the breakpoints in the weapon factors versus defenses was not just useful, but critical to designing warships. Remember your first warship for High Guard? Maybe it was a good 'un. I remember my first ships for Trillion Credit Squadron: they were pathetic.
People Mover, Small
I can get at the small people-mover by playing with the various options. Yes, many options don't work together when you put them together in certain combinations. Some do.
Code:
code type TL q vol spd ld AV: ca, fp, rp, sp, ps, in, se KCr
---------- -------------------------------------------- -- -- ---- --- ---- ---- --- --- --- --- --- --- -- ------
HPOALGPH Open Advanced Lt Grav Passenger Vehicle 11 10 0 7 1.5 22.5 0 0 0 20 0 12 0 172.5
HPOALWPH Open Advanced Lt Wheeled Passenger Vehicle 7 6 0.5 7 1.5 22.5 0 0 0 20 0 12 0 137.5Anyway, this TL-11 craft has a load of 1.5 tons -- without the rules handy I don't know if you seat four people to the ton or two, but that's at least a two-seater.
It has an unusable speed of 7. I say "unusable" because it's open. Unless there's an impressive windshield. Maybe there is. I think I'd rather just say that this thing has plenty of pep, and is dangerous in the hands of the inexperienced.
Wheeled variant. Note that the Wheeled version is about the same, except the TL drops to 7.
Cargo Truck
While I can't get something reasonable to haul 8 tons, I can get it to 6:
Code:
code type TL q vol spd ld AV: ca, fp, rp, sp, ps, in, se KCr
---------- -------------------------------------------- -- -- ---- --- ---- ---- --- --- --- --- --- --- -- ------
EHWCT Enclosed Hv Wheeled Cargo Truck 6 6 7 4 6 14 0 4 0 4 0 18 0 120
EHGCT Enclosed Hv Grav Cargo Truck 10 10 5 4 6 14 0 4 0 4 0 18 0 360The grav version is a bit smaller at three times the cost.
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I think the Speed stat for vehicles is also what is considered regular use (2D) for that vehicle as defined in the operating charts in the rule book. If you want to go faster than this you +1D for +1 Speed again defined on that page, unfortunately I'm not near a copy of the rules so can't say which page it is will check when i get home.
David Johansen
SOC-12
Can't you design Zhodani warbots as robots?
Yes at one Difficulty level higher you can operate at +1 Speed.
The way I interpret this is that the derived Speed listed on the Vehicle Extension is the "Cruising" or normal operating speed and the next speed up is the "Maximum" speed.
The RobotMaker builds human or sophont form robots, to build other "Strangeform" robots you build them as a vehicle and fit a robot brain.
Yes, we can. But it's interesting to see how far VehicleMaker can be stretched.
Timerover51
SOC-14 5K
I would be interested in seeing what Vehicle Maker would do with the following basic specification.
Tech Level: circa 1950, one passenger motor cycle
Maximum weight empty, 120 kilograms, 100 kilogram payload, top speed 40 miles per hour/64 kilometers per hour.
And since Robject designed a passenger vehicle, what would a 38 passenger wheeled vehicle be and what is the lowest Tech Level that it can be designed at?
Tech Level: circa 1950, one passenger motor cycle
Maximum weight empty, 120 kilograms, 100 kilogram payload, top speed 40 miles per hour/64 kilometers per hour.
And since Robject designed a passenger vehicle, what would a 38 passenger wheeled vehicle be and what is the lowest Tech Level that it can be designed at?
I'll try it. (Using T5.09)
Since you've given me the values you require I don't have to derive the values using the Fillform method and I can go straight to constructing a Vehicle Extension.
TL circa 1950 = TL6
One passenger? I'll assume you mean one operator.
VehicleMaker is Volume based not Mass based, but 120Kg equates to 80Liters, however thats only the volume of the actual components. VehicleMaker uses a "DesignBox" to bound the volume of the chassis, the operators, passengers and the volumes needed for movement of components, so we'd include the volume of the front wheel's freedom of movement for example.
I'm going to call that 0.5ton, or a volume of 3m x 1.5m x 1.5m
Top speed of 64kph would equate to Speed 5. Since that's a maximum speed we can make the normal speed Speed 4
Your 100Kg payload equates to 67Liters or smaller than a human passenger.
The Vehicle Description will read:
VLite - Wheeled - Car - Human - TL6
So armed with that information we can write a Vehicle Extension
Vx: Tons=0.5 Speed=4 Load=0 Stage=Standard Environ=Air Endurance=Local QREBS=50000
You can start play with that information. As the designer I'd look at that information and your requirements and say the following: "The Timerover50000 motorcycle is an example of the classic era of motorbiking. It is meant to carry one rider in relative comfort but has two 35Litre panniers* for transporting essentials. In an emergency a passenger can ride behind the rider but this is not recommended for safety reasons**". You could happily cruise along at 30-40kph and with a Driver Skill check kick it up to 50-100kph given good roads but since 64kph has been specified as max speed we'll take that as being what it does out of the factory.
* I've put in 70Litres of cargo space in the form of two 35Liter panniers/racks/tie-downs. Load=0 so no 1ton cargo modules or 0.25ton pallets or boxes but trivial volumes under 100Liters can be assumed to be available in a design.
**VLite vehicles carry just their operator but all vehicles can squeeze an extra passenger on board due to the "Just One More" rule.
Since you've given me the values you require I don't have to derive the values using the Fillform method and I can go straight to constructing a Vehicle Extension.
TL circa 1950 = TL6
One passenger? I'll assume you mean one operator.
VehicleMaker is Volume based not Mass based, but 120Kg equates to 80Liters, however thats only the volume of the actual components. VehicleMaker uses a "DesignBox" to bound the volume of the chassis, the operators, passengers and the volumes needed for movement of components, so we'd include the volume of the front wheel's freedom of movement for example.
I'm going to call that 0.5ton, or a volume of 3m x 1.5m x 1.5m
Top speed of 64kph would equate to Speed 5. Since that's a maximum speed we can make the normal speed Speed 4
Your 100Kg payload equates to 67Liters or smaller than a human passenger.
The Vehicle Description will read:
VLite - Wheeled - Car - Human - TL6
So armed with that information we can write a Vehicle Extension
Vx: Tons=0.5 Speed=4 Load=0 Stage=Standard Environ=Air Endurance=Local QREBS=50000
You can start play with that information. As the designer I'd look at that information and your requirements and say the following: "The Timerover50000 motorcycle is an example of the classic era of motorbiking. It is meant to carry one rider in relative comfort but has two 35Litre panniers* for transporting essentials. In an emergency a passenger can ride behind the rider but this is not recommended for safety reasons**". You could happily cruise along at 30-40kph and with a Driver Skill check kick it up to 50-100kph given good roads but since 64kph has been specified as max speed we'll take that as being what it does out of the factory.
* I've put in 70Litres of cargo space in the form of two 35Liter panniers/racks/tie-downs. Load=0 so no 1ton cargo modules or 0.25ton pallets or boxes but trivial volumes under 100Liters can be assumed to be available in a design.
**VLite vehicles carry just their operator but all vehicles can squeeze an extra passenger on board due to the "Just One More" rule.
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A low tech 38 passenger wheeled vehicle by the Fillform method.
Truck Wheeled: TL6 Tons=4 Speed=5 Load=3
Heavy TL+1 Tonsx2 Speed- 1 Load+2
Heavy Truck Wheeled: TL7 Tons=8 Speed=4 Load=5
Fossil TL-2 Tons+2
Air (Open) TL-2
Heavy Truck Wheeled Fossil Air: TL3 Tons=10 Speed=4 Load=5
Add a cargo module Tons+1 Speed-1 Load+1
Heavy Truck Wheeled Fossil Air: TL3 Tons=11 Speed=3 Load=6
Total: Load=6 can carry 24 passengers in basic conditions i.e. bench seats. 11 tons of vehicle equates to 11 operators and passengers. Total carried is 36, so we can say 34 passengers, a driver, a fireman.
As designer I look at this an decide its a steam powered charabanc that motors along at 20kph. Its actually quite advanced by Terran standards, the equivalent charabancs on Earth during TL3 were still horse drawn. Its open to the air and has no Armor or Protections to speak of and is assumed to be for Local travel because it needs some form of refueling and/or maintenance on an hourly basis (oil the valves, shovel on more coal type activities). Cost ~170KCr
An alternate explanation is to call this a tram and say its confined to follow tracks (wheeled vehicles are also a route to designing locomotives). This may be a more plausible explanation given the TL.
The vehicle will fit inside a design box or bounding box 3m wide, 3m high and 16.5m long, however the actual dimensions of the vehicle will be less. If you get into an area thats 3m wide or high, or if you try parking in a space 16.5m long I suggest you start rolling checks against Driver Skill. For storage aboard a starship in ready to drive off condition allow 11+1tons
There are of course other possibilities that I may have overlooked because I was driving at getting the TL as low as possible. Building a smaller vehicle and adding passenger modules might also be a route to the desired vehicle.
[Edit] Corrected passenger capacity to 4 passengers per ton of Load.
Truck Wheeled: TL6 Tons=4 Speed=5 Load=3
Heavy TL+1 Tonsx2 Speed- 1 Load+2
Heavy Truck Wheeled: TL7 Tons=8 Speed=4 Load=5
Fossil TL-2 Tons+2
Air (Open) TL-2
Heavy Truck Wheeled Fossil Air: TL3 Tons=10 Speed=4 Load=5
Add a cargo module Tons+1 Speed-1 Load+1
Heavy Truck Wheeled Fossil Air: TL3 Tons=11 Speed=3 Load=6
Total: Load=6 can carry 24 passengers in basic conditions i.e. bench seats. 11 tons of vehicle equates to 11 operators and passengers. Total carried is 36, so we can say 34 passengers, a driver, a fireman.
As designer I look at this an decide its a steam powered charabanc that motors along at 20kph. Its actually quite advanced by Terran standards, the equivalent charabancs on Earth during TL3 were still horse drawn. Its open to the air and has no Armor or Protections to speak of and is assumed to be for Local travel because it needs some form of refueling and/or maintenance on an hourly basis (oil the valves, shovel on more coal type activities). Cost ~170KCr
An alternate explanation is to call this a tram and say its confined to follow tracks (wheeled vehicles are also a route to designing locomotives). This may be a more plausible explanation given the TL.
The vehicle will fit inside a design box or bounding box 3m wide, 3m high and 16.5m long, however the actual dimensions of the vehicle will be less. If you get into an area thats 3m wide or high, or if you try parking in a space 16.5m long I suggest you start rolling checks against Driver Skill. For storage aboard a starship in ready to drive off condition allow 11+1tons
There are of course other possibilities that I may have overlooked because I was driving at getting the TL as low as possible. Building a smaller vehicle and adding passenger modules might also be a route to the desired vehicle.
[Edit] Corrected passenger capacity to 4 passengers per ton of Load.
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pendragonman
Absent Friends Margrave
I don't like it. It's not purple. :devil:
Did you get my PM, by the way?
Yep just answered in the very positive.
On colour, the TL3 "charabanc" is going to be lead based paint in a number of fetching liveries.
The TL6 motorbike probably comes in black, olive drab, and a nice shiny BSA green.
However for a limited time, all vehicles purchased will come with a pair of purple fluffy dice. Don't miss out, come on down for a test drive :devil:
Timerover51
SOC-14 5K
For aspiring vehicle makers, the following book is very interesting. The title says it all. Horseless vehicle, automobiles, motor cycles operated by steam, hydro-carbon, electric and pneumatic motors; a practical treatise for automobilists, manufacturers, capitalists, investors and everyone interested in the development, use and care of the automobile, including a special chapter on how to build an electric cab, with detail drawings (1900)
https://archive.org/details/horselessvehicle00hiscuoft
Now, to analyze Reban's designs. I should note that I borrowed a friend's copy of The BBB for Traveller 5 to make sure that I was interpreting everything correctly.
The motor scooter I had in mind is taken from the US Army Technical Manual 9-2800, 1953 edition, Standard Military Vehicles, so it is an actual item.
It is a Cushman Model 53, designation SCOOTER, MOTOR, AIRBORNE, 2-WHEEL. Given that it is intended for Airborne use, it would qualify as Very Light. Shipping cube, uncrated, is 39 cubic feet, or 0.078 Traveller dTons, with dimensions being a length of 77 inches/1.95 meters, a height of 38 inches/0.96 meters, and a width of 23 inches/0.59 meters. That is considerably smaller than the 0.5 ton box of 3 meters by 1.5 meters by 1.5 meters. Reban did not post any Beastpower rating, but looking at pages 294 and 295, for a Very Lite vehicle with a speed of 4 and weighing 0.25 ton vehicle (the scooter combine weight and payload is 485 pounds, so roughly 0.25 metric tons), would take a BP of 16, with the actual Horsepower of the engine at 4.6.
With respect to adding the 70 Liters of cargo space, the next vehicle in the Manual is a cargo-carrying version of the Scooter, with what looks like about a 125 cubic liters of cargo space, which adds 100 pounds to the allowable payload, and with the added weight brings the entire machine up to 680 pounds. That drops the speed, with the same engine, to 35 miles per hour, and reduces endurance as well. The 225 pounds initial payload was to account for the weight of one fully-equipped paratrooper or soldier.
Looking at the photo, I am not sure where you could put another person. You are not putting them on the handlebars, and they are not going to sit on the rear wheel. About the only spot is on the fuel tank, and if their butt is on the fuel tank, another part of their anatomy is sitting on the engine. So figure this is strictly a one person scooter, operator only.
Now, Reban did not put a price on the vehicle, but based on his description, and looking at page 298 and page 300, B]VLite - Wheeled - Car - Human - TL6[/B], there are two possible prices. If treated as a civilian vehicle, it looks like the price would be 20,000 Credits divided by 3 (for Very Light), or 6667 Credits. This could also be viewed as military vehicle, is was intended for use by Airborne forces, but that would kick it up to 300KCr divided by 3, or 100KCr. It could be used off-road, it is a motor scooter, but that would tack another 10KCr to the price (30KCr for the off-road ability divided by 3).
Now, the manual does not give the price, but the US Army was paying $300 per motorcycle for Harley-Davidsons in World War 1 (that figures comes from The U.S. Air Service in World War 1, Volume IV), and the inflation adjuster from 1919 to 1953 is 1.54 (per Bureau of Labor Statistics Inflation Calculator), which would make the cost of the Harley-Davidson $462. Given that the motor scooter is less than half the weight of the Harley, a price of $300 would seem more than reasonable in 1953 Dollars. The inflation rate from 1953 to 1976 is 2.13, so in 1976 Dollars, the price would be $639, which again appears to be quite reasonable. That is a far cry from 6,667 Credits.
Methinks that maybe the pricing for Vehicle Maker could use some work. On to the next one.
Ah see you were holding out on me. With all that extra information I could have tweaked and shaved the design to better reflect your SCOOTER.... you did ask for a motorcycle did you not?
When setting out to meet your specifications I envisaged something along the lines of a Harley-Davidson, Indian or BSA military dispatch riders motorbike.
You are correct that 3m x 1.5m x 1.5m is far too much volume for a Scooter a single 0.25ton cube would probably meet your requirement better, but the designbox concept takes a little time to get your head around. It's not the volume inside the hull of the vehicle, or its storage space but the volume it dominates.
Again the 70Liters of storage was to be thought of as panniers and various racks or tiedowns usually found on a dispatch bike or perhaps a more modern touring bike.
If I was setting out to design a scooter, especially one for specialized airdrop operations I think I'd look to ThingMaker and assign a Speed rating and other details from the realworld design.
Checking the Value Benchmark I think I can put those Scooters into mass production for ~1300Cr each or I can set up an all robot production line and produce them for around ~670Cr each.
Wartime supply and demand could push those prices down as far as 110Cr each if demand does not outstrip supply.
Wartime supply and demand could push those prices down as far as 110Cr each if demand does not outstrip supply.
Timerover51
SOC-14 5K
Just curious, what makes you think that things will be cheaper in wartime? In World War 2, the US quit making vehicles for civilian use for a couple of years. They finally relented when it came to agricultural machines and trucks to haul cargo.
