T5 World Gen - Red Zones for LL+Gov

[Bartleby]

There is a rule in T5 that suggests making every main world where the LL and Gov numbers total 22 or higher an Interdicted world (i.e. Red Travel Zone).

I thought this was cool when I saw it, and I thought it made sense, imagining the harsh dictatorial areas being blocked off for everyones own good.

I also liked the new Economic rules and thought I might marry the Ex with GT:Far Trader to make some cool hybrid trade route system.

When I made my own homebrew sector with the T5 rules, I ran into a problem. My largest economies (by Ex) have been declared Red Zones!

This sort of makes sense, since population is the main influence for government and therefore law, and it has a significant influence on the Ix which leads to the Ex, you can see how it might happen.

Out of the 16 systems I have with a 9+ Pop, nine of them are Red Zoned.

That is not what I want for MTU. I am thinking the Red Zone threshold should be higher.

Has anyone else used the 22 threshold for your own sectors? I can't imagine the havoc it would wreak on the Solomani Rim if we went back at retconned that rule into canon.

 

[ShawnDriscoll]

Interesting. I'll run the numbers through my computer and see what things look like.

 

[sudnadja]

There is a rule in T5 that suggests making every main world where the LL and Gov numbers total 22 or higher an Interdicted world (i.e. Red Travel Zone).

I thought this was cool when I saw it, and I thought it made sense, imagining the harsh dictatorial areas being blocked off for everyones own good.

I also liked the new Economic rules and thought I might marry the Ex with GT:Far Trader to make some cool hybrid trade route system.

When I made my own homebrew sector with the T5 rules, I ran into a problem. My largest economies (by Ex) have been declared Red Zones!

This sort of makes sense, since population is the main influence for government and therefore law, and it has a significant influence on the Ix which leads to the Ex, you can see how it might happen.

Out of the 16 systems I have with a 9+ Pop, nine of them are Red Zoned.

That is not what I want for MTU. I am thinking the Red Zone threshold should be higher.

Has anyone else used the 22 threshold for your own sectors? I can't imagine the havoc it would wreak on the Solomani Rim if we went back at retconned that rule into canon.

How do you rate economic size by Ex? There are four factors in the Ex value.
For TravellerMap worlds, there are 1170 that have LL+Gov >= 22, of which 975 are Amber Zone already, 57 are Red Zone already, 1 is "U", and 137 have no zone classification.

The median RU of the worlds that would change classification to Red is 4004, and the mean is 4419.24. Compared to the entire dataset, the median is -8 and mean is 494, so if RU is taken to mean the value of the economy, it is chopping off quite a bit of the higher output worlds.

 

[ShawnDriscoll]

I ran some numbers.
And out of 113 worlds with POP >= 9...

33 were Red Zoned.

I'm just going by POP, GOV, and LAW is all. No trade codes.



Now out of the 1373 total worlds generated (not being concerned about POP)...

67 were Red Zoned.

 

[Bartleby]

How do you rate economic size by Ex? There are four factors in the Ex value.
For TravellerMap worlds, there are 1170 that have LL+Gov >= 22, of which 975 are Amber Zone already, 57 are Red Zone already, 1 is "U", and 137 have no zone classification.

The median RU of the worlds that would change classification to Red is 4004, and the mean is 4419.24. Compared to the entire dataset, the median is -8 and mean is 494, so if RU is taken to mean the value of the economy, it is chopping off quite a bit of the higher output worlds.

That is exactly what I am seeing. I suspect if you wanted to make your own universe with the T5 rules, and hoped for something like the OTU, you might need to up the threshold to something like 30.

 

[Bartleby]

I ran some numbers.
And out of 113 worlds with POP >= 9...

33 were Red Zoned.

I'm just going by POP, GOV, and LAW is all. No trade codes.



Now out of the 1373 total worlds generated (not being concerned about POP)...

67 were Red Zoned.

So a little under 1/3 of the high pop worlds are red zoned in your simulation?

That is in the neighbourhood of what I am seeing (though my smaller sample size was 1/2).

Those worlds, in theory, have the biggest economies and would be the hubs of any trade routes.

 

[Mako]

Rules and laws are made to be broken, or ignored by some/many, so..........

 

[sudnadja]

That is exactly what I am seeing. I suspect if you wanted to make your own universe with the T5 rules, and hoped for something like the OTU, you might need to up the threshold to something like 30.

For TravellerMap worlds, a total population of 4.77 to 5.80 trillion would be added to the red zone. The total imperial population being 18.0 to 21.8 trillion, that means 21% to 32% would be added to the red zone.

As it stands now, 1.3% to 1.9% of imperial population is red zone, so that is a pretty substantial change.

It's also a reverse of how things are now - Red zones are most frequently assigned to law level 0 (30 worlds) and/or government type company/corporation (32 worlds).

 

[Timerover51]

A couple of things to keep in mind.

First, never apply a rule rigidly if it causes problems in the game. The problem of high population driving both the government and law levels to high levels is a known one. As I see it, you do not blindly apply a die roll to that sort of situation, but ask yourself, if you are creating the planet, what you are looking for.

Second, even if they are "Red Zone" they may still be more than a little bit interested in trade. As such, the star port will be run either by the Imperium Star Port Authority, or the planetary government may designate an area as a Free Trade Zone, with greatly reduced law and government presence.

 

[Bartleby]

For TravellerMap worlds, a total population of 4.77 to 5.80 trillion would be added to the red zone. The total imperial population being 18.0 to 21.8 trillion, that means 21% to 32% would be added to the red zone.

As it stands now, 1.3% to 1.9% of imperial population is red zone, so that is a pretty substantial change.

It's also a reverse of how things are now - Red zones are most frequently assigned to law level 0 (30 worlds) and/or government type company/corporation (32 worlds).

An excellent way to look at it, thank you. Clearly a change that has massive repercussions if followed without exception.

I've been playing with the numbers and for MTU the threshold of 30 makes more sense.

Thanks all.

 

[mike wightman]

Travel zones are something that should always be assigned by the referee.

And they should be subject to change over time.

 

[agorski]

Travel Zones shouldn't be a problem, but be aware that Travellermap rigidly enforces T5 rules when you use POSTERMAKER to make maps with your data. If there's a problem you'll notice that some worlds just aren't drawn. You can use the error checker on the site with your data file to see what the problem is. You'll probably see warnings as well, but these won't prevent mapping.

 

[sudnadja]

A couple of things to keep in mind.

First, never apply a rule rigidly if it causes problems in the game. The problem of high population driving both the government and law levels to high levels is a known one. As I see it, you do not blindly apply a die roll to that sort of situation, but ask yourself, if you are creating the planet, what you are looking for.

Second, even if they are "Red Zone" they may still be more than a little bit interested in trade. As such, the star port will be run either by the Imperium Star Port Authority, or the planetary government may designate an area as a Free Trade Zone, with greatly reduced law and government presence.

I would think that following the rule (or what I think the rule is) strictly, the starport should be immune from the planetary zone rating, as it is not under the control of the planetary government if the planet is part of the imperium. Landing to pick up cargo on a red zone world should be fine in most cases, if the crew never passes the Extrality line of the starport.

There probably should be something to distinguish "Red Zone because local law is so strict that the average visiting offworlder is likely to spend 15-20 years in prison for illegal thoughts" vs "the world has been overrun by space zombies". In the first case, it's ok to land at an 3I starport on the world, in the second it's not ok to land at all.

 

[ShawnDriscoll]

Adjusting for 30...

Out of 1740 total worlds generated...

7 were Red Zoned.

 

[sudnadja]

An excellent way to look at it, thank you. Clearly a change that has massive repercussions if followed without exception.

I've been playing with the numbers and for MTU the threshold of 30 makes more sense.

Thanks all.

Red zone worlds as recorded on TravellerMap now:


Red zone worlds if Gov+LL>=22 are added:


Red zone worlds if Gov+LL>=30 is the threshold:


The circled systems would be added to the red zone list with Gov+LL>30:


And here is if it is 22:

 

[Bartleby]

Fantastic stuff sudnadja, thank you.

As someone who builds sectors via a program, I want a general rule to follow before I need to make changes by hand.

Seeing the visuals makes it easier to set a threshold.

 

[ShawnDriscoll]

I was looking at my map. The bigger circles are just bigger populations. I can't decide if I like the 22 or 30 rule. I may make it a selectable thing.

 

[mike wightman]

This rule makes no sense for the setting.

I'd have a hard time coming up with a reason for so many high population, high law level. high government world in the Third Imperium to suddenly earn a red zone classification...

 

[ShawnDriscoll]

Some would say that T5 uses another setting. Not the one we're used to. I guess we'll know when the books come out.

 

[kilemall]

I don't know T5 worldgen, but based on earlier editions, how about a homebrew rule where the starport modifies the result?


Higher A and B starports perhaps adjust the target number or modify the check number.


To use the CT mods for TL for instance,



A +6
B +4
C +2
X -4


That mod would be applied to your target number, so a Starport A world would have to have a 28 for Red Zone designation, a C world is 24, X is 18, etc.


Not wed to these numbers, just an example of what could be done. Logic being that a world with 'public' starports would be naturally more integrated into at least the trade life and law of the subsector, no matter the OTU or otherwise. Possibly more 'interstellar cosmopolitan', although I understand that is measured in T5.


Which would be another modifier you could look at, the xenophobia whatever value.


Alternatively you could let it stand, the starport is an extrality exception and beaucoup money can still be made on trade, but massive risk setting foot outside the port.


Therein of course lies adventure.