What is T5's take on commoners and kings?

[christopher.boote]

Precedence

In Britain (and I make no presumptions for elsewhere) precedence is both simple and horrendously complex

We have whole (BIG) books about it - look up Debrett's some time

First Rank
Heads of state
Inside this, Primacy is given to Hereditary monarchs, in order of founding of their state
(So the highest would be the Emperor of Japan, followed by Queen Elizabeth (as Queen of England), then Queen of Denmark and so on, all the way down to Norway, Saudia Arabia and Swaziland)
Next come elected heads of state, again in order of founding of that state
(So here the highest is President Ahmenedjad of Iran!)
The Pope comes into this bracket as well
Finally come 'other' heads of state - neither elected nor hereditary, so here would be military rulers, dictators and the like

Second Rank
Heads of Government
Prime Ministers, mostly, in order of their earliest contiguous election date
So the German Chancellor, if elected yesterday, is of lower rank than the Vanuatan Prime Minister elected four years ago
The Speaker of the HoR would fall into this category, but the House majority leader would be in the third rank, below
UN Secretary Ban Ki-Moon is here, too

Third Rank
Other Governmental
This includes such people as Ayatollah Katami Khameni of Iran, or the tribal elders of Afghanistan, as well as other senior governmental and quasi-governmental figures - Deputy Prime Minister Nick Clegg, or the Dalai Lama for example

Fourth Rank
Non-Governmental
Pretty much a free-for-all here, decided on a case by case basis
(E.g. at a British Legion event, Sir Mike Jackson would outrank Donald trump, but at an international finance event, it would be the other way around)

Where there is a conflict - where the head of state is also the head of government* they are treated as the highest rank they hold

Now I admit that a banquet where POTUS, the Pope, the Ayatollah and the President of of Iceland sit down for dinner with the queen is an unlikely event, but the fact that these things have been worked out in advance - AND PUBLISHED - stops any chance of an inadvertent slight at any such gathering

And we have a classic example coming up next week with the funeral of Baroness Thatcher, where the invites will indeed be sent in order of Precedence


* Interestingly the UN deem this to be an undemocratic situation, and insist upon separation of powers to be a prime condition of a democracy
By this definition, the US, France, along with China, Iran, North Korea, Yemen, Nigeria and similar countries all fail at being democracies

 

[aramis]

Unfortunately, that's on the T20 social scale. IIRC I'd need to reach SOC 16 to get an Imperial knighthood, if the old CotI boards scheme was still in effect, which I'm fairly sure is not the case.Hans?

It is still in effect... I made a few adjustments to posting requirements, but didn't change it, per se.

 

[christopher.boote]

And we have a classic example coming up next week with the funeral of Baroness Thatcher, where the invites will indeed be sent in order of Precedence

A chuckle on this - President Kirchner of Argentina will NOT be invited to Maggie's funeral

 

[rancke]

It is still in effect... I made a few adjustments to posting requirements, but didn't change it, per se.

Something to look forward to, then... in another decade or so.


Hans

 

[aramis]

Something to look forward to, then... in another decade or so.


Hans

Be a few weeks... When we upgrade to V Bulletin 5. Partly due to lazy admin. partly because people would Complain.

On the Soc 10 issue... it always has been gentry... as they Can Enter the Noble career! So it is in S4:COTI, MT, T4...

 

[rancke]

On the Soc 10 issue... it always has been gentry... as they Can Enter the Noble career! So it is in S4:COTI, MT, T4...

You're quite right. I never realized the implications of that. I've never envisaged the existence of a class of supra-planetary Imperials without even a knighthood to distinguish them. It doesn't help, though. It merely means that the missing levels of the planetary upper class starts one level up from the upper middle class instead of one level up from the planetary gentry. And it still means that you have a social ladder that splits the lower and middle classes into nine levels and the interstellar nobility into 6+ levels, but fails to mention[*] the existence of everyone from the equivalent of a country squire to planetary royalty -- a chunk of society that OUGHT to have several levels to itself if the lower and middle classes have nine.

[*] You can argue that such people would fall into level 10 and 11, but there's never been any explicit mention of that. Whenever a Traveller author has needed a noble for a plot, it's invariably been an Imperial noble.​

Hans

 

[rancke]

Be a few weeks... When we upgrade to V Bulletin 5. Partly due to lazy admin. partly because people would Complain.

I meant that it has taken me 12 years to write enough posts to reach SOC 14; I don't recall exactly how many it takes to reach SOC 16, but I believe it will take me quite a few years to do so.


Hans

 

[aramis]

You can argue that such people would fall into level 10 and 11, but there's never been any explicit mention of that. Whenever a Traveller author has needed a noble for a plot, it's invariably been an Imperial noble.

Hans

There has been Mention of it, but it has been generally ignored. Especially since it is irrelevant off world.

 

[rancke]

There has been Mention of it, but it has been generally ignored. Especially since it is irrelevant off world.

No, it most definitely is not irrelevant off world, any more than the rank of a Russian grand duke was irrelevant in England (or in America, for that matter). Every offworld is some set of nobles'[*] onworld, and high society on one world would be very much aware of the status of someone from the high society of another world. Nor is it irrelevant to the Imperial nobility, because, as I pointed out above, social prominence is pretty well transitive. An Imperial noble would be much more inclined to accept an invitation to dine with the Earl of Thumberland than with Mr. and Mrs. Tom Dickson, 45 Nasturtium Lane, Credo.

[*] Or the equivalent elite if the world doesn't have an aristocracy.​

Also, the Earl of Thumberland is much, much likelier to need a bunch of travelers to solve a problem for him than the Duke of Regina is[**].

[**] In most cases the Duke would have people of his own. In the rare cases where he didn't, he'd have people of his own to find people to do the job[***].

[***] Please note: I'm not saying that the Earl of Thumberland wouldn't have people of his own; just that an Imperial noble is much likelier to have people of his own with the skill and knowledge to handle unusual problems than a planetary noble is.
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Hans