OTU Only: T5SS Semi-Official Thread

[Nathan Brazil]

I have a questions about the Extensions. I am, as always. working on my OTU history, specifically First Imperium and Rule of Man.

Do these get rerolled over time, as in centuries or millennia?

RESOURCES
Some of this seem intrinsic to the star system like Resources. The only factor involved in Resources seems to be the Tech Level. So if a system which is uninhabited becomes inhabited, then achieves TL 8+, its Resources would increase. Conversely, mapping backwards in time, its Resources would reduce. Right?

My example here would Midku (Vland 1619). Its current Resources Value is 7, TL 8, Belts 1, Gas Giants 0, UWP B764485-8.
Its current Resources Value is 7.
So....
Prior to colonization by the Vilani, its UWP would have been X764000-0 (my evaluation). Since it is TL 0 you could not add the Gas Giants or Belts, so would its Resources Value be 6?

LABOR
Labor is not subject to rolling, it is simply Pop-1. So...
Midku has a UWP Pop Value of 4, so Labor is 3. Pre-colonization, it would have a Labor of 0.

 

[Drakon]

I have a questions about the Extensions. I am, as always. working on my OTU history, specifically First Imperium and Rule of Man.

Do these get rerolled over time, as in centuries or millennia?

RESOURCES
Some of this seem intrinsic to the star system like Resources. The only factor involved in Resources seems to be the Tech Level. So if a system which is uninhabited becomes inhabited, then achieves TL 8+, its Resources would increase. Conversely, mapping backwards in time, its Resources would reduce. Right?

My example here would Midku (Vland 1619). Its current Resources Value is 7, TL 8, Belts 1, Gas Giants 0, UWP B764485-8.
Its current Resources Value is 7.
So....
Prior to colonization by the Vilani, its UWP would have been X764000-0 (my evaluation). Since it is TL 0 you could not add the Gas Giants or Belts, so would its Resources Value be 6?

LABOR
Labor is not subject to rolling, it is simply Pop-1. So...
Midku has a UWP Pop Value of 4, so Labor is 3. Pre-colonization, it would have a Labor of 0.

First off, for T5, these rules are not built yet. How these values change over time is not explained, yet.

In T4 Pocket Empires (which I just got and started looking at) it appears that Resources are not rerolled, however, Infrastructure, Tech Level and Labor can all be improved. The only way I know that Resources change is when you get to TL 8 and achieve interplanetary flight, you can increase your resources by adding gas giants and asteroid belts to your Resources number.

I am still getting the hang of the new (for me) material in T4 Pocket Empires, but you can use excess resources for trade, and trade for more colonists, higher tech level, better infrastructure.

Resources are what is available, and does not really change. But you can use resources to change the other factors, build a military, buy air scrubbers, import colonists, what have you.

 

[Nathan Brazil]

Exactly! Like T4 mentions in First Survey, some information does not really change like Size, Atmosphere, Hydrographics.

Well, except perhaps the Ancients blowing up planets (changing mainworlds, increasing Belts), Hard Times Biosphere Damage, and TNE effects from Virus.

I know there are no rules on how to change the other values, did not expect that.
But the other values could change over time, like populations, governments, TL and so on.

The big one for me is Importance and Resources.
Importance is not rolled, and Resources, once rolled, does not change. If these are true, they become relavant to viewing backwards into the history of OTU. You can use Pocket Empires or GURPS ISW.
Like which planets were colonized by the Vilani first, what planets were battlegrounds during the Nth Interstellar Wars. computing the these. As example, if it can be said that T5SS Resouces correlates to GURPS4 ISW RVM, then one can build a Resources to RVM table for Asteroid Belts and Other Worlds like so
Resources to RVM
Asteroids Belts
2 = -5
3 = -4
4 = -3
5 = -2
6 = -1
7 = 0
8 = 1
9 = 2
10 = 3
11 = 4
12 = 5

Other Worlds
2 to 3 = -2
4 to 5 = -1
6 to 8 = 0
9 to 10 = 1
11 to 12 = 2

From there you determine colonization patterns. Insane? Sure. I get that a lot...

 

[Dagrill]

Not sure I agree with this statement. I think that almost any government form can be equally efficient or inefficient, depending on what principles the government is running on (as opposed to what principles the government professes to be based on.)

Well I was thinking that popular governments would be more efficient than unpopular ones, as fewer resources need to go into suppressing the people
and both would be more efficient than no government at all. Also the more laws you have the more time wasted on bureaucracy rather than building stuff.

Kind Regards

David

 

[Dagrill]

It's also the incentive for the URL="http://wiki.travellerrpg.com/Solomani_Rim_War"]Solomani Rim War[/URL]. With the Solomani attempting to economically cut off five of the top 10 sectors, there is a lot of incentive.

But didn't the Solomani Rim War occur prior to the second survey, surely those worlds would have suffered from the conflict?

Regards

David

 

[rancke]

Didn't PE express Labor in absolute numbers? Labor points in millions of people per LP or something like that? See, that works. Expressing Labor as population levels don't work.

No, it leaves them as population levels.

Are you sure? I could have sworn PE got that right.

I dug out my Pocket Empires and checked. You're wrong, Thomas. PE did use the entire population as a basis, not the population level.

The formula for GWP¹ is found on p. 40. It is

GWP = (RE * LF * I ) / (C+1)

RE = TL * 0.1 * RA
RA = Resources Available
LF = Labor Base from the Labor Base Table, multiplied by the Population Multiplier.
I = Infrastructure
C = Culture

Labor Base Table is on p. 107. A population level of 7 equals a Labor Base of 1. Each step up or down in population level changes Labor Base by a factor 10. In other words, Labor Base is population divided by 10,000,000, presumably to get smaller figures for RUs. So if you have a population of 30 million, the Labor Base is 3; if you have a population of 30 billion, the Labor Base is 3,000.

Not 7 for the 30 million and 10 for the 30 billion.


Hans

¹ I do so wish the authors had chosen another term, because to me GWP has meant per capita income multiplied by population ever since Striker coined the term in 1981. Furthermore, Striker's GWP seems a logical extrapolation from the Real World concept of GNP, which PE's GWP does not.​

 

[tjoneslo]

But didn't the Solomani Rim War occur prior to the second survey, surely those worlds would have suffered from the conflict?

Suffered? Perhaps, but not badly enough they could not have recovered in the 70 years between the end of the war and the survey. To really affect the Solomani Rim sector (and the others) economy would require Black War level devastation.

 

[tjoneslo]

I do so wish the authors had chosen another term, because to me GWP has meant per capita income multiplied by population ever since Striker coined the term in 1981. Furthermore, Striker's GWP seems a logical extrapolation from the Real World concept of GNP, which PE's GWP does not.

It does make sense if you accept that a) the [(RE * I ) / (C+1)] term is a calculation of the per-capita income. And b) the number uses a different scale because the designers found it easier to compare numbers in the hundreds or thousands rather than billions or trillions.

And the term [LF / (C+1)] is a labor force efficiency rating.

 

[rancke]

It does make sense if you accept that a) the [(RE * I ) / (C+1)] term is a calculation of the per-capita income.

But I don't want to accept that. To me, GWP is a parallel term to GNP. Whereas the figure the PE formula calculates is the part of the GWP (equal to 1/(C+2) of the GWP) that isn't used by the population for its own selfish purposes such as food, shelter, comforts, and luxuries. Basically the military part of the taxes (plus other government projects unrelated to redistribution).

And b) the number uses a different scale because the designers found it easier to compare numbers in the hundreds or thousands rather than billions or trillions.

I don't mind that at all. I mind that they didn't come up with a different term for what is a different unit.

And the term [LF / (C+1)] is a labor force efficiency rating.

No, it isn't. Efficiency affects total production. Culture affects consumption. Two worlds can have the same production but if they have different Culture, the amount of wealth the government can skim for its military and other projects will differ.


Hans

 

[Drakon]

Well I was thinking that popular governments would be more efficient than unpopular ones, as fewer resources need to go into suppressing the people
and both would be more efficient than no government at all. Also the more laws you have the more time wasted on bureaucracy rather than building stuff.

Kind Regards

David

Again I would argue that popularity has nothing to do with how efficient a government is, or can be. One way of becoming popular is giving away free stuff. However, there is no such thing as a free lunch, so what you give to the populace to make yourself popular has to come from somewhere.

People don't always watch, or care about government efficiency as much as they care what that government can give themselves. So, while you may be correct about less need for oppressing dissidents, and beaucratic waste, in the end, I feel it is largely irrelevant to whether that government ends up with negative or positive RUs.

 

[Drakon]

No, it isn't. Efficiency affects total production. Culture affects consumption. Two worlds can have the same production but if they have different Culture, the amount of wealth the government can skim for its military and other projects will differ.


Hans

Culture affects the whole ball of wax, production, distribution and consumption. The Amish have a very different culture, and because of it, the Amish will never produce a cell phone, nor avail themselves of increased productive efficiencies that higher tech levels can offer.

 

[rancke]

Culture affects the whole ball of wax, production, distribution and consumption. The Amish have a very different culture, and because of it, the Amish will never produce a cell phone, nor avail themselves of increased productive efficiencies that higher tech levels can offer.

I was talking about 'Culture', not about culture. 'Culture' is a simple measure of how much of total production is spent on and by the population. Societies with profoundly different cultures can have the same 'Culture'.


Hans

 

[Hal]

Hi Guys,
Is the material listed at Traveller Map, considered to be Official Second Survey material, for which the changes are deemed to be official?

The reason I'm asking is because the Spreadsheet that contained what was thought to be T5 (along with all other traveler data) doesn't match entirely, what is at the Traveller Map website. For instance, Spirelle is listed in the T5 data as being Tech Level 7, while in other sources, including the Traveller Map webpage, it is listed as TL 8.

When I spot those differences, I'm wondering which is expected to be the definitive value? I know that some world Diameters and Atmospheres are expected to change, and I don't have an issue with that

Just checking...

 

[Drakon]

Hi Guys,
Is the material listed at Traveller Map, considered to be Official Second Survey material, for which the changes are deemed to be official?

The reason I'm asking is because the Spreadsheet that contained what was thought to be T5 (along with all other traveler data) doesn't match entirely, what is at the Traveller Map website. For instance, Spirelle is listed in the T5 data as being Tech Level 7, while in other sources, including the Traveller Map webpage, it is listed as TL 8.

When I spot those differences, I'm wondering which is expected to be the definitive value? I know that some world Diameters and Atmospheres are expected to change, and I don't have an issue with that

Just checking...

My understanding is that Travellermap.com and the T5 second survey data it uses is canon. This thread is about correcting some issues with the T5SS dataset. Note the jump routes through Corridor have changed.

 

[Hal]

My understanding is that Travellermap.com and the T5 second survey data it uses is canon. This thread is about correcting some issues with the T5SS dataset. Note the jump routes through Corridor have changed.

OK, so the T5 dataset that was given out during the playtest period is no longer valid then. Good to know.

Thank you.

 

[DonM]

Yes, the old Spinward Marches draft data has been incorporated into the T5SS.

The Marches draft data was the proof-of-concept that led to the T5SS full project.

And there's a major update coming for travellermap.com...

 

[whulorigan]

World Ownership discrepancies in T5SS Canon

I have noticed some discrepancies in Captive Government "Owned Worlds" data in the T5SS of the Spinward Marches that differs from prior canonical sources.

WORLDNAME		T5SS	GT:BtC	TravellerWiki
0703 Indo		O:0605 Algebaster	O:0704 Nerewhon	O:0704 Nerewhon
1401 Foelen		O:1103 Clan	O:1102 Riverland	O:1402 Farreach
3016 Kegena		O:2716 Rhylanor	O:3216 Bevey	O:3216 Bevey
3220 Powaza		O:3124 Mora	O:3218 Tacaxeb	O:3218 Tacaxeb
3029 Palique		O:3025 Laberv	O:3124 Mora	---
0837 Ochecate		O:1040 Kuai Qing	O:0838 Mewey[TD] O:0838 Mewey
1532 Elixabeth		O:1435 Dallia	O:1535 Forine	O:1535 Forine
2534 Burtson		O:2733 Edenelt	O:2536 Squanine[TD] O:2536 Squanine

[/TD] [/TD]

Are these deliberate retcons or oversights?

 

[Garnfellow]

The last round of T5SS edits re-did subsector capitals and owned worlds so that these data are calculated through use of the T5 Importance stat.

I really think this was well-intentioned but ultimately a big mistake, since (a) Importance, while handy, is a very coarse metric, and (b) these changes create conflicts with a ton of past canon. It gives us very little gain for quite a bit of pain.

My recommendation for the Solomani Rim, for example, would be to roll back the edits to the subsector capitals. The changes, while defensible, were also not so dramatic an improvement that they really cried out for adoption.

Absent any other past information, Importance isn't a bad way to determine these things. But the T5 rules at a few points stress that these political designations are a referee's prerogative.

 

[rancke]

The last round of T5SS edits re-did subsector capitals and owned worlds so that these data are calculated through use of the T5 Importance stat.

I really think this was well-intentioned but ultimately a big mistake, since (a) Importance, while handy, is a very coarse metric, and (b) these changes create conflicts with a ton of past canon. It gives us very little gain for quite a bit of pain.

<sigh>

Canon: If it's broken, fix it; if it's NOT broken, don't change it.


Hans

 

[whulorigan]

The last round of T5SS edits re-did subsector capitals and owned worlds so that these data are calculated through use of the T5 Importance stat.

I really think this was well-intentioned but ultimately a big mistake, since (a) Importance, while handy, is a very coarse metric, and (b) these changes create conflicts with a ton of past canon. It gives us very little gain for quite a bit of pain.

My recommendation for the Solomani Rim, for example, would be to roll back the edits to the subsector capitals. The changes, while defensible, were also not so dramatic an improvement that they really cried out for adoption.

Absent any other past information, Importance isn't a bad way to determine these things. But the T5 rules at a few points stress that these political designations are a referee's prerogative.

It seems that a reasonable "in universe" argument could have been made that in some cases, a given world at one time had had a higher importance, but had since declined somewhat, and moving a capital world to another with a current higher importance was just simply an unjustifiable hassle.