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Tech Level Zero

atpollard

Super Moderator
Peer of the Realm
I have this mental image that I just can't shake.

A Type A Free Trader is landing in this cleared patch of bedrock surrounded at some distance by a large 'Stonehedge' ring that marks the limits of the starport. Beyond the stone boundary is a primitive village that exists only to facilitate trade between the nomadic locals and the off-worlders.

I admit it.
I have an obsession with poking at the boundaries of things:
  • Small Craft less than 10 dTons and starships less than 100 dtons.
  • A hard-science meets steampunk TL 4 space culture.
  • Noble savages (TL 0) trading with a starship.

So recently, I have given a lot of thought to TL 0.
Why would a people CHOOSE to live at TL 0?
How would advanced knowledge with primitive manufacturing affect things?

So I went looking for a TL 0 world in the Third Imperium ... and found none. :(
Looking at the official maps that I have, TL might as well just start at TL 3 for all the difference it would make to the OTU.
So does anyone know of a TL 0 world that I missed?

Of greater importance to me (since I can change nothing about the OTU) ...
Is anyone else interested in TL 0?
 
I am.

I assume there are some sophont peoples on Imperial worlds which are at TL0, but that these are not the people who 'own' the world as far as the Imperium is concerned.

Craw, for example. Or maybe those unnamed aliens on Tionale.
 
Reft/New Islands Orphee 0609 E885600-0 Ag Ga Lt Ni R
In 5575AD, the Convention of Interdiction, signed by all the
major powers, declared that Orphee was a closed world in
order to protect the local non-human population from outside
interference. Thus far this convention has been upheld by all
parties, other than to land the occasional research team. The
people of Orphee have only the most primitive technology and
thus little to offer outsiders.

Reft/Moibin Dead End 0310 E576000-0 Ba Ga Lt Im G
No info found on this one.
 
Getting a Tech Level 0 world is going to be quite difficult, as about the only way to do it is get an X-class starport, and a really low population roll. I also have serious qualms about calling the period before the Bronze Age Tech Level 0, as prior to the Bronze Age, mankind had developed Agriculture, domesticated several types of animals, developed irrigation, was making pottery on a fairly large scale, and had developed permanent communities. They also had developed the spear-thrower or atlatl, the bow, fairly sophisticated art techniques, and were engaging in trade in such things as pottery, obsidian, and flint. What Tech Level would you give the American Indians prior to European contact? They had not reached the point of smelting metal, but would you call them Tech Level 0?

Why would a people CHOOSE to live at TL 0?

If you have a fairly large world like Earth, with a wide range of climate zones, and a very thinly spread population of well less than 1 person per square mile, you might not have enough concentrated population to go from the hunter-gatherer culture. L. Sprague De Camp, in his book The Ancient Engineers, has an interesting discussion on what is required for technological advancement. In his view, one of the key needs is a settled community supported by agriculture.

The odd thing about a hunter-gatherer society it that family bonds would be the predominate factor governing groupings, and by the World Development Chart covering Tech Level, a "0" government factor gives you a +1 one your technology roll. And if you are trading with them with a Free Trader at what is a designated spot marked for landing, you have an E-class starport, so automatically a Tech Level of 1.

How would advanced knowledge with primitive manufacturing affect things?

Advanced knowledge like knowing that laptop computers exist is not going to do much to a world at a Tech Level of 1. The gap in knowledge is too great. However, on a planet with a good supply of charcoal, good iron ore, and limestone deposits, show a diagram of a 18th century iron smelter to someone familiar with iron-smelting on a small scale, and they will pick it up very quickly. Show someone who is capable of casting large bronze bells a diagram of a cast bronze cannon and how to make gunpowder, and you are going to jump to the Gunpowder Age very quickly.

As I see it, a Tech Level 0 world means one that does not have an intelligent species on it.
 
Reft/New Islands Orphee 0609 E885600-0 Ag Ga Lt Ni R

You have an E-class starport, so no starport subtraction, and a government type of "0", which gives you a +1 on the Tech Level, so the Tech Level roll would be 1D6 +1, therefore the lowest Tech Level would be "2", not "0".

Reft/Moibin Dead End 0310 E576000-0 Ba Ga Lt Im G
No info found on this one.

Well, with a population of "0", I would expect a Tech Level of "0".
 
TrojanReach-1402 Selshor E430576-0 De Ni Po Fo {-3} (741-3) [4241] R 913 12 Na F6 V M0 V

The population exponent is 5, which per the World Creation Charts gives you a +1 on the Tech Level die roll, planet size 4 gives you a +1, and atmosphere of 3 also gives you a +1 on the die roll. The Tech Level die roll will be 1D6 plus 3, so the MINIMUM Tech Level would be 4, with a range of 4 to 9.

Edit Note: Corrected 1D9 for Tech Level Die roll to 1D6.
 
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Love the image in the OP.

First thing that came to my head was: Shadows.

Expanding that old GDW favorite. For some reason, I see a low-tech civilization on the planet--obviously some sort of alien that has some sort of thick skin and lung works, adapting them to the acidic atmosphere.

Skin, hard as a rock. Built up dead cells, that slough off in the acidic atmosphere.

Or, maybe the aliens are covered by hair, and the hair grows to protect them, like the horn of a rhino.

This type of ''what if" thinking is one of the reasons I love Traveller so.
 
If you have a fairly large world like Earth, with a wide range of climate zones, and a very thinly spread population of well less than 1 person per square mile, you might not have enough concentrated population to go from the hunter-gatherer culture. L. Sprague De Camp, in his book The Ancient Engineers, has an interesting discussion on what is required for technological advancement. In his view, one of the key needs is a settled community supported by agriculture.

Recent archeological finds seem to be throwing that school of thought out the window, or at least threatening to do so.

Between 12-14 KYA, Göbekli Tepe was apparently a ceremonial site of a non-agricultural people. Significant monumental architecture in stone, but not agricultural.


http://archive.archaeology.org/0811/abstracts/turkey.html


So, it's possible to have a civilization with permanent structures, perhaps even seasonal settlements, without significant agriculture. And not just in aboriginal american peoples. (The Aleut, Alutiiq, and Yupiq all have stable habitations, but not agriculture, as well. They just lack monumental architecture.)
 
The population exponent is 5, which per the World Creation Charts gives you a +1 on the Tech Level die roll, planet size 4 gives you a +1, and atmosphere of 3 also gives you a +1 on the die roll. The Tech Level die roll will be 1D6 plus 3, so the MINIMUM Tech Level would be 4, with a range of 4 to 9.

Edit Note: Corrected 1D9 for Tech Level Die roll to 1D6.

Nevertheless, the data above IS the current T5SS Data for the world.
 
The population exponent is 5, which per the World Creation Charts gives you a +1 on the Tech Level die roll, planet size 4 gives you a +1, and atmosphere of 3 also gives you a +1 on the die roll. The Tech Level die roll will be 1D6 plus 3, so the MINIMUM Tech Level would be 4, with a range of 4 to 9.
Setting information trumps rules1. Unless, that is, the conflict indicates some reason why the setting description can't possibly be true. I see no reason why a population of TL0 people can't be as low as 900,000. I see no reason why a size of 4 requires a higher TL. A very thin atmosphere... Well, yes, a very thin atmosphere would seem to call for either a retcon of the TL (to around 4 or 5 minimum?) or a retcon of the atmosphere to thin (4 or 5). Unless the population are Llellewyloly. ;)
1 Or so I firmly believe.

Hans
 
I also have serious qualms about calling the period before the Bronze Age Tech Level 0, as prior to the Bronze Age, mankind had developed Agriculture, domesticated several types of animals, developed irrigation, was making pottery on a fairly large scale, and had developed permanent communities. They also had developed the spear-thrower or atlatl, the bow, fairly sophisticated art techniques, and were engaging in trade in such things as pottery, obsidian, and flint. What Tech Level would you give the American Indians prior to European contact? They had not reached the point of smelting metal, but would you call them Tech Level 0?
First, I will make no attempt to make sense of the worldgen rules ... if it was up to me, I say roll all of the attributes completely random and discard illogical results. I suspect that my method will not yield significantly worse results. ;)

Second, yes ... I would view most North American Indian cultures as TL 0.
TL 0, IMHO, is any society that relies on hunting and gathering for at least 50% of its food supply.

Personally, I think that the view that TL 1 = Ancient Greece/Rome is flawed. I see TL 1 as any society that has made the jump to permanent settlements and agriculture. A more typical example would be any of the numerous small Norse or Celtic settlements. Rural villages are the definitive TL 1 settlement.
 
As I see it, a Tech Level 0 world means one that does not have an intelligent species on it.
I started from a similar position ... only a people incapable of growing crops (like Eskimoes or Bedouins) would choose to live without farming.

Then I started reading up on it and new possibilities have been ignited in my imagination.
If you had to choose between a 20 hour work week as a Hunter-gatherer and a 60 hour work week as a Farmer, which would you choose?
If you had to choose between living with no higher governing authority or as a serf answerable to a lord, which would you choose?
If you had to choose between an egalitarian society where the worth of each and every individual was measured by what they could do for the family or a rigid caste system of military rulers and workers where wealth was both concentrated and inherited, which would you choose?

I have started to view TL 0 society as the ultimate survivalists. Rugged individualists who want to be judged on their own merit and live free from external rules imposed by another. Nature and survival judge the fitness of the individual and the group.
 
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Long ago I had an idea about using tool stages to define Traveller tech levels.

Tool stage 0 would be defined as any tool that can be made from scratch given appropriate natural resources and any material that can be gathered using only TS 0 tools.

Tool stage N would be defined as any tool that requires one or more TS N-1 tools or materials and any materials that requires TS N tools to gather or manufacture.

My idea was to divide these stages into tech levels once they had been defined (i.e. TL0 = TS 0-X, TL1 = TS X+1 - Y, etc.).

I never got any further than to make a list of TS 0 tools and materials.


Hans
 
I started from a similar position ... only a people incapable of growing crops (like Eskimoes or Bedouins) would choose to live without farming.

Then I started reading up on it and new possibilities have been ignited in my imagination.
If you had to choose between a 20 hour work week as a Hunter-gatherer and a 60 hour work week as a Farmer, which would you choose?
If you had to choose between living with no higher governing authority or as a serf answerable to a lord, which would you choose?
If you had to choose between an egalitarian society where the worth of each and every individual was measured by what they could do for the family or a rigid caste system of military rulers and workers where wealth was both concentrated and inherited, which would you choose?

I have started to view TL 0 society as the ultimate survivalists. Rugged individualists who want to be judged on their own merit and live free from external rules imposed by another. Nature and survival judge the fitness of the individual and the group.

The Eskimo, Aleut, and Alutiiq live where there is no agriculture - the land won't support it. And yet, they have a vibrant set of cultures. Strong cultural ties, too.

Not a few maintain the old skills, and the old ways are 8-12 hour days in late summer, and next to no work in winter. One or two hunting days per week, plus possibly some ice fishing. Dogs make hunting in winter efficient enough to keep them fed year round, and discourage bears. These dogs are not overly friendly - they're a hair shy of wolves - but are hard workers and well able to read what people want. (But note: the wolves in the area are also strongly hybridized with them - making them even more dangerous - they can read you better than a more pure wolf.)

There's no inherent metalwork, but surprisingly high quality stone, bone, hide, and grass tools are available. Wood isn't a normal material for Yupic and Aleut - the Alutiiq, however, have extensive woodwork. Fishhooks, harpoon heads, and arrowheads are made from bone; bows are rare, but atl-atls and slings are standard.

Leatherwork is surprisingly good - the hand sewn leather is often as well made as machine stitched. Gut, especially whale gut, is turned into high quality rainwear.

Permanent housing is a fixture - but it's the winter house. Summer housing is tents; some fishcamps have permanent tent-frames of whale bone, and smoking and drying racks for salmon and red meats.. Igloos are winter hunting and fishing shelters.

Stored food is refrigerated by putting it into pits into the permafrost layer by the Yupiq; the Aleut hunt year round on the ocean, in both kyaks and dories.

Free time is spent in song and dance, and on crafts.

Goods owned do exceed that which can be carried, but not often by much.

Bone axes are known; so are stone ones. Bows are rare - the wood's not great for it - but spears and harpoons are common. Hafted picks serve as digging adzes, and are made from wood or bone with horn picks.

Sewing needles are made from bone or porcupine quill.

Starches are rare in the diet, and sugars are mostly in the form of berries... and those berries are not sweet. The diet is mostly proteins, with some leafy vegetables, some seaweed. Fruits tend to be berries and rosehips. No grains are common - the grass is mostly used as a textile.

Waterproof baskets can be made - often, they're grass, lined with bladder or gut.

Drop spindles are known, but yarns are used mostly for decorations and art, not for fabrics. Almost all the yarns are from animal fur. Decorative yarns are often hand-rolled, rather than spun. Boots typically are fur, with the fur inside. Sometimes, an outer gut shell is added.

Boats are made of hide sewn over frames.

Dogsleds are wood, rawhide, sinew, horn, and bone. The wood is worked green and wet. When needed, the runners may be "fixed" with ice.

It's hard, but Elders into their 70's were not uncommon according to the Russian accounts. There's a LOT of free time to pass culture on. Songs, dance, drumming are common. The drums make minimal use of wood, but plenty of leather over a thin hoop of wood.

Some form of glue/varnish is known, but I don't know what it's made from.

Branding and banishment are a form of punishment - usually, it's during winter. Sent out, the criminal is chased from the village with nothing but his clothes and a spear. It's usually a death sentence. You can't survive alone, since the meat is too heavy to work alone. Division of labor is common. Women do the food prep, men do the hunting and active fishing, everyone works the fishtraps, cuts and hauls meat, helps with the smoking and drying. Kids and women do most of the berry gathering.

It's TL0, bordering on TL1, sailing is known in principle, but isn't overly efficient (hide sails are heavy).

That's one form of TL0 village culture. Some of the locations of current villages have been shown to have several centuries of occupation. Why? Because there's no need to move. You follow the resources only so far, then return to the winter village.
 
Long ago I had an idea about using tool stages to define Traveller tech levels.

Tool stage 0 would be defined as any tool that can be made from scratch given appropriate natural resources and any material that can be gathered using only TS 0 tools.

Tool stage N would be defined as any tool that requires one or more TS N-1 tools or materials and any materials that requires TS N tools to gather or manufacture.

My idea was to divide these stages into tech levels once they had been defined (i.e. TL0 = TS 0-X, TL1 = TS X+1 - Y, etc.).

I never got any further than to make a list of TS 0 tools and materials.


BTW, this is almost EXACTLY the definition of Tech Level in the T5 Ruleset. The coined phrase is "Tools^2". TL increments are broadly/philosophically considered as tools that are used to make other tools.

Based on that logic, I presume the leap from TL-0 to TL-1 would have to do with making some "leap of logic" or understanding that takes two or more separate technologies and finds a way to make something new utilizing both of them. Alloy-metallurgy (such as bronze) would be an example. It is one thing to utilize stone, bone, wood, or native copper to build tools. It is another to realize that certain metals/metalloids can be gotten out of certain minerals, and that mixing copper with another one of those metals/metalloids in the correct proportion (say tin or arsenic) will result in new materials with superior properties.
 
Based on that logic, I presume the leap from TL-0 to TL-1 would have to do with making some "leap of logic" or understanding that takes two or more separate technologies and finds a way to make something new utilizing both of them.
While tool use is both a good and important metric for judging TL, it carries with it the innate danger of subconsciously assigning greater intelligence to higher TLs: "Primitive people are not 'smart enough' to invent the more advanced technology."

Historically, this has led to some epic policy failures (and worse).
Anthropologically, the view is incorrect.

I may be way off, but it seems to me that people are people.
The reality of their circumstances make their chosen lifestyle the 'best' choice for them.
It also seems that each TL trades one set of problems for another - in some ways, the new technology makes things better and in other ways, it makes things worse.

With respect to the TL 0-1 transition, the cost of creating a storable food surplus, was a significant loss in family time, community closeness and personal equality. Society shifted from a win-win cooperative social model to a win-loose competitive social model. It may have been necessary and it may even have been a net benefit, but it was not (IMO) a free lunch ... it cost us something important.

YMMV.
 
While tool use is both a good and important metric for judging TL, it carries with it the innate danger of subconsciously assigning greater intelligence to higher TLs: "Primitive people are not 'smart enough' to invent the more advanced technology."

Historically, this has led to some epic policy failures (and worse).
Anthropologically, the view is incorrect.

A poor choice of words on my part. Perhaps "discovering" or "employing" or "making use of" rather than "making a leap of logic" would be better wording. I realize that the use or non-use of a particular set of technologies is not a measure of Intelligence.

I may be way off, but it seems to me that people are people.
The reality of their circumstances make their chosen lifestyle the 'best' choice for them.
It also seems that each TL trades one set of problems for another - in some ways, the new technology makes things better and in other ways, it makes things worse.

With respect to the TL 0-1 transition, the cost of creating a storable food surplus, was a significant loss in family time, community closeness and personal equality. Society shifted from a win-win cooperative social model to a win-loose competitive social model. It may have been necessary and it may even have been a net benefit, but it was not (IMO) a free lunch ... it cost us something important.

YMMV.

While I agree with your observations above, I think it is important to keep Technological Level distinct from cultural considerations, as far as it is possible to do so.* TL is supposed to be a gauge of what technology a society actually employs, regardless of reason.
* - I realize that cultural considerations and local conditions may mean that two or more societies rated at a given TL may look radically different, and may have radically different approaches to solving the same problems.
Even if a society has deliberately chosen to not utilize a given set of technologies due to cultural considerations, I would still rate their TL based on what they actually are choosing to employ. In the OTU, there are a number of worlds that have deliberately turned their backs on technology to lead a simpler lifestyle. Even though these cultures are quite aware of more advanced technologies, their worlds' UWPs reflect what they actually utilize in practice, rather than what they could choose to employ given a different cultural outlook.

Or have I entirely missed the point you are trying to make?
 
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