• Welcome to the new COTI server. We've moved the Citizens to a new server. Please let us know in the COTI Website issue forum if you find any problems.

Technical Liftoff Question

sincerity.jpg

You got me.
I just find orbital mechanics calculations REALLY boring and certainly not worth the effort for a game.

There are two distinct issues when dealing with takeoff.
If local Gravity is greater than total thrust, then the ship just sits on the pad and vibrates. This COULD be solved the way aircraft solved the problem: wings, wheels and a really long runway. The shorter those wings, the longer that runway needs to be.

[Traveller ships that I have seen do not have wheels, most do not have wings and none of the Starports seem to have runways.]

(Sorry, I have to go now. I'll try to add to the conversation later.)
 
You got me.
. . .
[Traveller ships that I have seen do not have wheels, most do not have wings and none of the Starports seem to have runways.] . . .

I was going to comment on this.

While it is certainly within your purview as Referee for you to say things such as 'most ships don't use grav lifters' you probably also need to consider the implications.

The majority of Traveller ships (at least the Adventure Class Ships) are designed around the assumption that they have some form of grav lifter. There are some exceptions like the Subsidized Merchant but the vast majority of designs simply wouldn't be functional without the ability for them to be able to lift straight up from the surface of the planet and hover.

This doesn't mean space travel wouldn't occur in such a universe. It just means that they would design the ships differently. Ships would either all be designed with more aerodynamic bodies and wheels so that they could function more like an aircraft (the theoretical 'air shaping' technology we talked about earlier could be used to provide existing plans with the required aerodynamics and you just replace their skids with wheels) or they would be designed with their engines pointed 'downwards'.
 
Also, the Starship Operators Manual which was published for MegaTraveller by Digest Group Publications, posited that the maneuver drives could be pushed by as much as 400% for a handful of minutes and by 140% for a few days.

YMMV
 
I was going to comment on this.

While it is certainly within your purview as Referee for you to say things such as 'most ships don't use grav lifters' you probably also need to consider the implications.

The majority of Traveller ships (at least the Adventure Class Ships) are designed around the assumption that they have some form of grav lifter. There are some exceptions like the Subsidized Merchant but the vast majority of designs simply wouldn't be functional without the ability for them to be able to lift straight up from the surface of the planet and hover.

This doesn't mean space travel wouldn't occur in such a universe. It just means that they would design the ships differently. Ships would either all be designed with more aerodynamic bodies and wheels so that they could function more like an aircraft (the theoretical 'air shaping' technology we talked about earlier could be used to provide existing plans with the required aerodynamics and you just replace their skids with wheels) or they would be designed with their engines pointed 'downwards'.

Of course I considered the implications, the whole point of this exercise is to make for a functional 'hard' feel without introducing full weight/thrust mechanics, and a different experience to being in a 'ship of the first class' vs. Our Heroes workaday blue collar ships vs. the scary old stuff still knocking around.

Disagree on the wheels, I would say most do, but a lot of the rough field/exploration ships won't due to squishy ground pressure situations, those would count on as you say mains able to gimbal to point down for VERTOL plus attitude thrusters that are more powerful collectively then I suspect most assume (since they do a lot of pushing to generate evasions against laser shots).
 
Wheels are really going to be a problem.
Just some quick and dirty numbers to get started ...

Using the Space Shuttle as a guide, a starship will weigh 4 metric tons per displacement ton. Therefore, a 100 dTon Scout Ship will weigh 400 metric tons.

If we install generic Truck Tires (like on an 18 wheeler) then each tire will support about 2 metric tons. The scout ship needs 200 truck tires.

A 200 dTon Type A would need twice as many.

Some rule systems have the ships weighing as much as 10 metric tons per displacement ton, which would bring the scout up to 500 truck tires.

Aircraft tires can be made to bear higher loads than truck tires, but probably not two orders of magnitude greater loads (If I am wrong, then I am sure someone will tell me.).

Flying Ships (which is what Traveller Starships are) will require the ability to hover or the ability to land in water. Adding wheels starts to look like moving a house ... yes it can be done, but not easily.
 
Wheels are really going to be a problem.
Just some quick and dirty numbers to get started ...

Using the Space Shuttle as a guide, a starship will weigh 4 metric tons per displacement ton. Therefore, a 100 dTon Scout Ship will weigh 400 metric tons.

If we install generic Truck Tires (like on an 18 wheeler) then each tire will support about 2 metric tons. The scout ship needs 200 truck tires.

A 200 dTon Type A would need twice as many.

Some rule systems have the ships weighing as much as 10 metric tons per displacement ton, which would bring the scout up to 500 truck tires.

Aircraft tires can be made to bear higher loads than truck tires, but probably not two orders of magnitude greater loads (If I am wrong, then I am sure someone will tell me.).

Flying Ships (which is what Traveller Starships are) will require the ability to hover or the ability to land in water. Adding wheels starts to look like moving a house ... yes it can be done, but not easily.

Landing peak pressures are already 2 orders higher than anything a standard truck is likely to see. 0-200 KPH in under 30m... a 747 lands on 4 bogies with 4 tires each, and has 4 more tires on the nose bogie. The B52 lands on 4 tires, (2 boies of 2 each) and steers/taxis on twice that.
 
An Airbus 380 has a maximum takeoff weight of 575 tons and uses 22 wheels, so that's only a single order of magnitude and not two, but did you really plan to only use 5 wheels?

Those wheels are also being constructed by a tech 8-9 civilization. At tech 11-15 the materials technologies probably allow significantly more robust tires.

Which isn't to say that it would be much better to have ships take off and land vertically, but if you aren't able to do that then most Adventure Class Ships can probably still manage tires.
 
An Airbus 380 has a maximum takeoff weight of 575 tons and uses 22 wheels, so that's only a single order of magnitude and not two, but did you really plan to only use 5 wheels?

575 tons at a vertical 0.5 to 1 m per second, with tires going from 0 to about 200mph in about 30m on landing. (I looked it up.) But in wet weather, that can be doubled or tripled safely. So, up to 3m/s vertical safely. That's the same as a 1/2m drop (of 0.31 sec).

Most pickup tires are going to have issues with a 1m drop. Add to that 200 kmh (55m/s) of forward speed or more, and that would blow most truck tires instantly. Note that the acceleration on the ground is about 100m/s/s, and the tires hit airspeed at just under 30m of contact...

so each tire is getting 26.1 tons force vertical, plus their own sudden 55 m/sec in under 1/2 sec rotational force.

A typical pickup is around 10 tons GVW.... and on 4 tires - for 2.5 ... but seldom has more than a 1/2 m drop, for 0.31 sec and 3m/s at impact (and often this is damaging), but a maximum acceleration of about 5 m/s horizontal.

Since energy is the square of velocity... a single magnitude change in velocity is 2 orders of magnitude in energy.
 
Another point relative to my quirky IMTU but likely not many others is that there are still plenty of vertical ships, tailfin down landings like the Starduster.

This because I am limiting G compensation so at TL9 only 1 G can be compensated, TL10 2 G etc., and the earlier TL8 craft do not have artificial gravity at all.

So to get 1 G on the early ships, they were built vertical with flooring on the 'aft' side of the bulkheads, putting the constant 1 G accel to useful account.

When artificial gravity became possible, the vertical ships just allowed for 2G and 3G constant accel with the same form factor, so vertical ships are associated with 'fast' comfortable travel. Even non-streamlined ships will still use the same architecture.

So for landing and takeoff they are already set for using the main thrusters in the 'proper' orientation.

The big negative is they need some sort of gantry or elevator or vertical dock, which can be short to come by especially at rough D and E starports.

1217797803_1.jpg


spaceangel1.jpg


The 'flying saucer' sphere is also very functional in this shipbuilding 'reality'.
 
An Airbus 380 has a maximum takeoff weight of 575 tons and uses 22 wheels, so that's only a single order of magnitude and not two, but did you really plan to only use 5 wheels?

Those wheels are also being constructed by a tech 8-9 civilization. At tech 11-15 the materials technologies probably allow significantly more robust tires.

Which isn't to say that it would be much better to have ships take off and land vertically, but if you aren't able to do that then most Adventure Class Ships can probably still manage tires.

Part of my point was that 4 tons per dton was on the low side and a 100 dTon scout was one of the smallest ship's commonly encountered.

Let's try again with your Airbus 380 tires (575 tons/22 wheels = 26 tons per wheel) and an 800 dTon Freighter loaded with freight at 10 tons per dTon.

800 dTon ship = 8000 metric tons / 26 tons per tire = 308 tires.

Is that what you imagine when drawing the deckplans?
Three landing struts at 100+ tires each?
Five landing struts at 60+ tires each?

Even at my light 4 tons per dTon and your 26 tons per A380 Tire, the 800 dTon (3200 ton) Freighter still needs 123 tires ... three landing struts at 40+ tires each.

**********

Setting aside the visual impracticality of the mental image of a starship with all those tires ...

Large aircraft (like a 500 ton A380) require special runways that are extra strong (to support the weight) and extra long (to give room to accelerate to takeoff speed). A 3200 to 8000 ton starship will need a staggeringly strong runway that will be constructed at an equally staggering cost. Beyond that, an A380 has really large wings designed to provide lift at low speeds. Starships (at least the designs that I have seen) do not. Even the most 'aerodynamic' have rather stubby wings that will provide lift more like a flying brick than an airfoil. I will leave it to someone better versed in aerodynamics (since they clearly exist) to estimate the take-off speed of 'flying brick' ... and from there, to estimate the runway length needed to accommodate that craft.

My opinion, is that will be a very long runway, built at staggering cost to accommodate craft that look very different than what has traditionally been imagined.

**********

None of this is to say that it is 'impossible'. It is just very different than the craft and starports presented in the OTU or the Traveller splat books. To create such an ATU will require more than just slapping some wheels on a Type S and Type A and calling it done [without a large dose of 'handwavium'].

That was my only point.
 
Another point relative to my quirky IMTU but likely not many others is that there are still plenty of vertical ships, tailfin down landings like the Starduster.
I like the idea of a tail-sitter, but find the deckplans much harder to create an interesting ship with. Needles create too many tiny rooms joined by an elevator/ladder. The Mercenary Cruiser is one of the closest shapes that I found to accommodating this orientation easily.
 
I just find orbital mechanics calculations REALLY boring and certainly not worth the effort for a game.

Agreed.

[Traveller ships that I have seen do not have wheels, most do not have wings and none of the Starports seem to have runways.]
"Happy Landings!" is one of my all-time favorite articles for Traveller. Runways figure prominently, but parkbays are common too.

I like the idea of a tail-sitter, but find the deckplans much harder to create an interesting ship with.
Agreed on both counts. When deckplans don't matter, tail-sitters are pure fun and are sure to generate that warm retro feel.
[FONT=arial,helvetica]
[/FONT]
 
Part of my point was that 4 tons per dton was on the low side and a 100 dTon scout was one of the smallest ship's commonly encountered. . .
A bit on the low side, but not terribly. TNE gives the weight of a fully loaded scout as 698 metric tons, very comparable to the 575 tons of the A380.

Let's try again with your Airbus 380 tires (575 tons/22 wheels = 26 tons per wheel) and an 800 dTon Freighter loaded with freight at 10 tons per dTon.

800 dTon ship = 8000 metric tons / 26 tons per tire = 308 tires.

Is that what you imagine when drawing the deckplans?
Three landing struts at 100+ tires each?
Five landing struts at 60+ tires each?

Even at my light 4 tons per dTon and your 26 tons per A380 Tire, the 800 dTon (3200 ton) Freighter still needs 123 tires ... three landing struts at 40+ tires each.

**********
Your math is way off. This is why the A380 doesn't need 200+ tires. As the weight increases you use larger tires. As the size of a tire increases the amount of area in contact with the ground and containing pressure both square. A tire that is twice as tall and twice as wide actually provides the same support as 4 tires. This is why the A380 is able to support so much more weight than a fully loaded truck with only 4 more tires. Using the A380 tires on a ship that is almost an entire order of magnitude larger is like saying that a Smart car must have 40 wheels because a skateboard typically supports 100 kg.

Also, remember, the tires on the A380 are TL-8 tires. The tires on your starship are probably at least TL-11. Will that really make a difference? Absolutely. Compare a modern (late TL-8) tire against a tire produced early in the 20th century (early TL-8). Modern tires are tubeless, often self sealing, with steel belts. You can shoot them and they will only leak air slowly. Most of our images of a tire hitting a nail and blowing out immediately stem from the old inner tube tires of the early 20th century.

TL-11+ tires are probably belted in things like high density long chain polyethylenes arranged in patterns that reduce separation between the chains and constructed so that the tire is supported by something other than atmospheric pressure (since worlds will have very different pressures).

We had a change of over 1 order of magnitude going from truck tires to actual airplane tires. You don't think we might not see another order of magnitude as we gain at least 3 tech levels with tires that are the appropriate size for the larger ship? Now your 8000 kton ship needs 30 tires. Is that a lot of tires? Sure, but it is 'do-able'.

Setting aside the visual impracticality of the mental image of a starship with all those tires ...

I think we can do that since there's plenty of possibilities to reduce the count of those tires to much more reasonable numbers.

Large aircraft (like a 500 ton A380) require special runways that are extra strong (to support the weight) and extra long (to give room to accelerate to takeoff speed). A 3200 to 8000 ton starship will need a staggeringly strong runway that will be constructed at an equally staggering cost. Beyond that, an A380 has really large wings designed to provide lift at low speeds. Starships (at least the designs that I have seen) do not. Even the most 'aerodynamic' have rather stubby wings that will provide lift more like a flying brick than an airfoil. I will leave it to someone better versed in aerodynamics (since they clearly exist) to estimate the take-off speed of 'flying brick' ... and from there, to estimate the runway length needed to accommodate that craft.

My opinion, is that will be a very long runway, built at staggering cost to accommodate craft that look very different than what has traditionally been imagined.

**********

None of this is to say that it is 'impossible'. It is just very different than the craft and starports presented in the OTU or the Traveller splat books. To create such an ATU will require more than just slapping some wheels on a Type S and Type A and calling it done [without a large dose of 'handwavium'].

That was my only point.

Yes, these ships would require very long run ways. Given that there is only a few starports per world as opposed to the hundreds airports in the real world that service large aircraft I don't see that as a real problem.

The aerodynamics is a completely separate issue. As I said in an earlier post it either requires the handwaving of some sort of 'airshaping' technology in order to make the existing deckplans work or you need to redo the plans (or decide to introduce some other technology that allows vertical landing). That's got little to do with me 'wanting' airplane style takeoffs, however. Even if you go to a tail lander solution the deck plans need to be redrawn because they make no real sense for a tail lander. The fact is that those plans are drawn with the assumption of some kind of vertical takeoff ability that does not require pointing your main engine directly at the ground.

To be completely honest I would assume that ships in such a universe would come in one of 3 basic designs.

The first and simplest would be ships that simply don't land. The largest ships would probably fit into this category because it is in many ways the simplest design. You can build a ship that transports cargo between star systems that doesn't require a massive maneuvering drive and you don't have to worry about aerodynamics. Since the thrust is low your structural engineering is also much more simplified. Parts that would snap off if exposed to 1G will be able to handle a constant .1G with no problems (yes, I realize Traveller doesn't have drives that produce that low an amount of thrust but we are already stepping out of the OTU).

The second would be 'tail landers'. This would include both tall tower shapes and 'flying saucer' shapes. They would have to have engines capable of producing at least 2Gs for a reasonable length of time and honestly are probably far more common than the type 3 design.

The last design would be ships that have drives that are stronger than the type 1 ships but not as strong as the type 2. They are built along lines similar to modern airplanes and they take off and land in a manner similar to what I've been talking about. Ones capable of using land based runways probably top out at around 400-600 dtons. Any larger than that and they probably resort to water landings, partially so they can simplify the ever increasing problem of wheels (the problem does continue to get worse and you can't just solve it with ever bigger tires because of something known as the cube/square problem, but I think you could probably get by with up to about 600 dtons before it becomes too great) but largely because such massive vessels require longer and longer runs to bleed off (and pick up) energy in a safe manner.

I'll be completely honest, type 3 designs would probably be in the minority in a true 'hard sci-fi' Traveller setting. They're just not as efficient as the type 2 or type 1 designs. However, most deckplans can be updated to type 3 designs with a lot less work. Their advantage is that they don't require engines capable of directly overcoming gravity, but since in Traveller an engine capable of producing 2G only requires a few percent of your ship that's something of a non-issue.
 
None of this is to say that it is 'impossible'. It is just very different than the craft and starports presented in the OTU or the Traveller splat books. To create such an ATU will require more than just slapping some wheels on a Type S and Type A and calling it done [without a large dose of 'handwavium'].

That was my only point.

Don't mind that, I'm outside the OTU setting anyway and big ol' starports sounds just fine.

Another business differentiation for the whisperliners, perhaps they can serve a lot more smaller but more desirable passenger ports.
 
I like the idea of a tail-sitter, but find the deckplans much harder to create an interesting ship with. Needles create too many tiny rooms joined by an elevator/ladder. The Mercenary Cruiser is one of the closest shapes that I found to accommodating this orientation easily.

Well if it helps these ships are not going to be our classic 100-600 range because the investment in 3-G engines likely isn't worth it, the type C is going to probably be the low end.

And as I slid into the end of that post, the saucer sphere is an eminently useful form factor for this application as well, and easier to draw out.

Heh, here is a RL example of what a needle starship 'floor plan' would be like, the very very strange Frank Lloyd Wright mini-skyscraper, the Price Tower. It has many of the issues you note.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Price_Tower

price-tower-radial.jpg

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipe...ton_County,_OK_HABS_OK-67_(sheet_8_of_17).png

http://okcmod.com/wp-content/upload...-booklet-typical-office-floor-2-floorplan.jpg
 
You got me.
I just find orbital mechanics calculations REALLY boring and certainly not worth the effort for a game.

The math for computing orbits is far too detailed for a game. However there are elements of orbital mechanics that are very usable for a game such as delta/vee, etc. And there are principle of orbital mechanics that can be incorporated into a game without having to do the math for example it would take a Traveller starship a longer to shift the plane of a orbit than it does to raise or lower it.
 
I wrote several add-ons for the Orbiter Space Simulator modeling realistic space craft.

The deal with Traveller starships is that while they have near infinite delta-vee they are constrained by the TIME it take to change the craft's total velocity. This become important near planetary or stellar bodies and why orbital dynamics still effect Traveller starships

For lift off it is all about the Thrust to Weight Ratio. It has to be greater than one. The problem is that in most editions of Traveller the thrust model is simplistic. You pick a power plant, a hull volume, and a m-drive and that tells you what G rating your craft will have.

While eminently gameable actual thrust has nothing to do with volume but rather mass. Let stipulate that the final figures accurate. That while in space a 200 ton Free Trader with 1-G is going to be accelerating at 9.8 m/sec^2. However if you also stipulate that acceleration is for a full loaded Free Trader packed with cargo and jump fuel.

If this is issue is a concern then my view is that the solution is that Free Trader don't take off or land fully loaded. That way their thrust to weight ratio is greater than 1 when they try to take off.

But how do get fully loaded? Well that probably a prime use for high ports. To fully fuel a low-G spacecraft before it proceed outbound from the system.

Now what about Class X and E starports? Well a Free Trader may not be the best choice to visit those world. Or while Class E worlds don't have a high port they do have fuel depots in orbit that a craft can dock with and fuel up before going outbound.
 
Based on what I learned reading NASA documents and testing my Orbiter add-ons.

Ascent Profile for a Free Trader

1) Star on the Ground
2) Angle Thrust from your M-Drive to lift off
3) When high enough start to tilt up keeping your thrust aimed at the ground
4) When vertical stop rotation
5) When past the point of maximum dynamic pressure (differs depending on world and atmospheres) start tilting back to horizontal. You do this slowly to do what is called a gravity turn.
6) Keep thrusting for 5 to 30 minutes (depends what your Thrust to Weight ratio is) and you will achieve orbit.

Descent profile.

1)Start in Orbit
2) Turn Retrograde
3) Start Thrust
4) Keep tilting to maintain a zero vertical velocity.
5) When your total velocity drops below the point where the craft will experience re-entry heating start to descend.
6) When you are above your landing site start tilting angling your M-Drive to the ground
7) Time it so that you touch ground just as the ship becomes horizontal.
 
Back
Top