The A2

[Spinward Flow]

I'd like to add two more combinations to this list: J2+1 and J1+2.

The only meaningful difference between J2+2, J2+1 and J1+2 in the context of a 200 ton form factor (such as an A2.*) is that with a collapsible fuel tank you get 20 tons of cargo capacity back ... which amounts to Cr20,000 of revenue per ticket, per jump ... again highlighting the all important distinction that pricing is Cr/Jump, rather than Cr/Parsec.

That's because the economic model of Traveller trade is not based upon distance ... it is instead founded upon "tonnage and TIME" (spent in transits) as opposed to "tonnage and DISTANCE" (parsecs traveled).

This is why ticket prices are the same per jump, regardless of jump range (see: LBB2.81, p9 for example, as already cited above).

 

[AnotherDilbert]

Income is per destination world, not per jump:

LBB2'81, p8:
_ _ Cargo: Starships may inquire at a starport about the number, sizes, and destinations of cargos awaiting transportation. The referee should determine all worlds accessible to the starship (depending on jump number), and roll for each such world on the cargo table. He should roll to determine the number of major, minor, and incidental cargos available on the world of origin; modifiers take into account the world of destination.

If you have to jump several times to get to the destination world, that is your problem.


Why bother with the Far Trader? As it is forced into a custom hull, it is ridiculously expensive for very little payload. Even a Free Trader with an extra tank is a better J-2 trader as it's half the price...

A 400 Dt ship will not be all that much more expensive, yet have far more payload available. It might even be remotely profitable... Even small world can quite often generate a few hundred tons of freight, as long as you stick to pop 4+ worlds.


The Far Fat Trader isn't profitable as a free trader, but with a subsidy and a mail contract it should be quite comfortable, even with the occasional double jump.

AT-42222R1-000000-00000-0        MCr 109         400 Dton
bearing                                            Crew=6
batteries                                           TL=12
           Pass=6 Low=8 Cargo=175 Fuel=100 EP=8 Agility=2

Single Occupancy    LBB2 design                   175       120,6
                                     USP    #     Dton       Cost
Hull, Streamlined      400 Dt          4          400          
Configuration       Cone               2                     20
Scoops              Streamlined                                

Engineering                                         5          
Jump Drive          D                  2    1      25        40
Manoeuvre D         D                  2    1       7        16
Power Plant         D                  2    1      13        32
Fuel, #J, #weeks    J-2, 4 weeks            2     100          
                                                               
Bridge                                      1      20         2
Computer            m/1bis             R    1       1         4
                                                               
Staterooms                                 12      48         6
Low Berths                                  8       4         0,4
                                                               
Cargo                                             175          
                                                               
Empty hardpoint                             2       2         0,2
                                                               
Nominal Cost        MCr 120,60           Sum:     175       120,6
Class Cost          MCr  13,27          Valid      ≥0          ≥0
Ship Cost           MCr 108,54                                  
                                                               
                                                               
Crew &               High     3        Crew          Bridge     2
Passengers            Mid     3           6       Engineers     2
                      Low     8                     Gunners     0
                 Extra SR     0      Frozen         Service     2
               # Frozen W     0           0          Flight     0
                  Marines     0                     Marines     0
                                                               
                                                               
Estimated Economy of Ship     Standard                                    
       Ship price     Down Payment         Mortgage       Avg Filled
       MCr 108,54       kCr 21 708          kCr 452              80%
                                                               
Expenses per jump                       Revenue                
Bank                Cr 217 080          High           Cr  24 000
Fuel                Cr  50 000          Middle         Cr  19 200
Life Support        Cr  22 400          Low            Cr   6 400
Salaries            Cr  11 520          Cargo          Cr 140 000
Maintenance         Cr   4 342                                  
Berthing            Cr     400                                  
                                                               
Summa              kCr     306                        kCr     190
                                                               
     Income potential per jump     kCr -116                  
  Yearly yield on down payment     -13,4%

 

[AnotherDilbert]

A Far Trader:

Spoiler

AT-22212R1-000000-00000-0       MCr 65,3         200 Dton
bearing                                            Crew=4
batteries                                           TL=12
             Pass=6 Low=8 Cargo=51 Fuel=60 EP=4 Agility=1

Single Occupancy    LBB2 design                    51        72,5
                                     USP    #     Dton       Cost
Hull, Streamlined   Custom             2          200          
Configuration       Cone               2                     22
Scoops              Streamlined                                
                                                               
Jump Drive          B                  2    1      15        20
Manoeuvre D         A                  1    1       1         4
Power Plant         B                  2    1       7        16
Fuel, #J, #weeks    J-2, 4 weeks            2      60          
                                                               
Bridge                                      1      20         1
Computer            m/1bis             R    1       1         4
                                                               
Staterooms                                 10      40         5
Low Berths                                  8       4         0,4
                                                               
Cargo                                              51          
                                                               
Empty hardpoint                             1       1         0,1
                                                               
Nominal Cost        MCr 72,50            Sum:      51        72,5
Class Cost          MCr  7,98           Valid      ≥0          ≥0
Ship Cost           MCr 65,25                                  
                                                               
                                                               
Crew &               High     3        Crew          Bridge     1
Passengers            Mid     3           4       Engineers     1
                      Low     8                     Gunners     0
                 Extra SR     0      Frozen         Service     2

Estimated Economy of Ship     Standard                                    
       Ship price     Down Payment         Mortgage       Avg Filled
        MCr 65,25       kCr 13 050          kCr 272              80%  

Expenses per jump                       Revenue                
Bank                Cr 130 500          High            Cr 24 000
Fuel                Cr  30 000          Middle          Cr 19 200
Life Support        Cr  18 400          Low             Cr  6 400
Salaries            Cr   7 200          Cargo           Cr 40 000
Maintenance         Cr   2 610                                  
Berthing            Cr     200                                  
                                                               
Summa              kCr     189                         kCr     90
                                                               
     Income potential per jump     kCr -99

Free Trader with an extra tank on a three week J1+1 schedule:

Spoiler

AT-2211111-000000-00000-0       MCr 36,5         200 Dton
bearing                                            Crew=4
batteries                                           TL=12
             Pass=6 Low=8 Cargo=69 Fuel=50 EP=2 Agility=1

Single Occupancy    LBB2 design                    69        40,5
                                     USP    #     Dton       Cost
Hull, Streamlined      200 Dt          2          200          
Configuration       Cone               2                     10
Scoops              Streamlined                                

                                                               
Jump Drive          A                  1    1      10        10
Manoeuvre D         A                  1    1       1         4
Power Plant         A                  1    1       4         8
Fuel, #J, #weeks    J-2, 4 weeks            2      30          
                                                               
Bridge                                      1      20         1
Computer            m/1                1    1       1         2
                                                               
Staterooms                                 10      40         5
Low Berths                                  8       4         0,4
                                                               
Cargo                                              69          
Demountable Tanks   J-1                     1      20         0,0
                                                               
Empty hardpoint                             1       1         0,1
                                                               
Nominal Cost        MCr 40,52            Sum:      69        40,5
Class Cost          MCr  4,46           Valid      ≥0          ≥0
Ship Cost           MCr 36,47                                  
                                                               
                                                               
Crew &               High     3        Crew          Bridge     1
Passengers            Mid     3           4       Engineers     1
                      Low     8                     Gunners     0
                 Extra SR     0      Frozen         Service     2

Estimated Economy of Ship     Standard                                    
       Ship price     Down Payment         Mortgage       Avg Filled
        MCr 36,47        kCr 7 294          kCr 152              80%

Expenses per jump                       Revenue                
Bank                Cr 109 404          High            Cr 24 000
Fuel                Cr  25 000          Middle          Cr 19 200
Life Support        Cr  17 200          Low             Cr  6 400
Salaries            Cr  10 800          Cargo           Cr 52 000
Maintenance         Cr   2 188                                  
Berthing            Cr     200                                  
                                                               
Summa              kCr     165                         kCr    102
                                                               
     Income potential per jump     kCr -63

The A1 has lower costs per jump, yet more payload so more income. Still not remotely profitable, of course...


The A2 is perhaps a speculative cargo special for the executive in a hurry?

 

[Grav_Moped]

The Far Fat Trader isn't profitable as a free trader, but with a subsidy and a mail contract it should be quite comfortable, even with the occasional double jump.

The numbers are slightly worse if it keeps the lifeboat, but I think it's just there in the original J-1 version for narrative purposes anyhow so I'm fine with discarding it.

The key point is that it gets to use the standard 400Td hull. Honestly, from an in-universe standpoint the standard hull in the 400Td size should just fit Size B drives and nothing else, since a Fat Trader with those drives is likely the most common 400Td ship. I'm pretty sure the extra space is for the meta-game purpose of allowing/encouraging players to upgrade their own ship rather than replacing it. Could have something to do with the difference between the '77 and '81 drive performance table (the wasted space wasn't as obvious when the required drives for J-1/1G were Size C).

 

[AnotherDilbert]

The numbers are slightly worse if it keeps the lifeboat, but I think it's just there in the original J-1 version for narrative purposes anyhow so I'm fine with discarding it.

I guess it's to make it unprofitable, to force the operators to scrounge for supplemental income...

The key point is that it gets to use the standard 400Td hull.

Quite, LBB2 basically forces the Scout and the Free Trader. It's only at 400 Dt we get some freedom to design different ships.


As an example we can compare a Far Trader with a basic Fat Trader (at the same basic ship cost) doing J1+1:
Far Trader:

Spoiler

AT-22212R1-000000-00000-0       MCr 65,3         200 Dton
bearing                                            Crew=4
batteries                                           TL=12
             Pass=6 Low=8 Cargo=51 Fuel=60 EP=4 Agility=1

Single Occupancy    LBB2 design                    51        72,5
                                     USP    #     Dton       Cost
Hull, Streamlined   Custom             2          200      
Configuration       Cone               2                     22
Scoops              Streamlined                            
                                                           
Jump Drive          B                  2    1      15        20
Manoeuvre D         A                  1    1       1         4
Power Plant         B                  2    1       7        16
Fuel, #J, #weeks    J-2, 4 weeks            2      60      
                                                           
Bridge                                      1      20         1
Computer            m/1bis             R    1       1         4
                                                           
Staterooms                                 10      40         5
Low Berths                                  8       4         0,4
                                                           
Cargo                                              51      
                                                           
Empty hardpoint                             1       1         0,1
                                                           
Nominal Cost        MCr 72,50            Sum:      51        72,5
Class Cost          MCr  7,98           Valid      ≥0          ≥0
Ship Cost           MCr 65,25                              
                                                           
                                                           
Crew &               High     3        Crew          Bridge     1
Passengers            Mid     3           4       Engineers     1
                      Low     8                     Gunners     0
                 Extra SR     0      Frozen         Service     2

Estimated Economy of Ship     Standard                                
       Ship price     Down Payment         Mortgage       Avg Filled
        MCr 65,25       kCr 13 050          kCr 272              80%

Expenses per jump                       Revenue            
Bank                Cr 130 500          High            Cr 24 000
Fuel                Cr  30 000          Middle          Cr 19 200
Life Support        Cr  18 400          Low             Cr  6 400
Salaries            Cr   7 200          Cargo           Cr 40 000
Maintenance         Cr   2 610                              
Berthing            Cr     200                              
                                                           
Summa              kCr     189                         kCr     90
                                                           
     Income potential per jump     kCr -99

Fat Trader:

Spoiler

AT-4211111-000000-00000-0       MCr 66,7         400 Dton
bearing                                            Crew=5
batteries                                           TL=12
            Pass=6 Low=8 Cargo=189 Fuel=90 EP=4 Agility=1

Single Occupancy    LBB2 design                   189        74,1
                                     USP    #     Dton       Cost
Hull, Streamlined      400 Dt          4          400       
Configuration       Cone               2                     20
Scoops              Streamlined                             

Engineering                                        25       
Jump Drive          B                  1    1      15        20
Manoeuvre D         B                  1    1       3         8
Power Plant         B                  1    1       7        16
Fuel, #J, #weeks    J-2, 4 weeks            2      50       
                                                            
Bridge                                      1      20         2
Computer            m/1                1    1       1         2
                                                            
Staterooms                                 11      44         5,5
Low Berths                                  8       4         0,4
                                                            
Cargo                                             189       
Demountable Tanks   J-1                     1      40         0,0
                                                            
Empty hardpoint                             2       2         0,2
                                                            
Nominal Cost        MCr 74,14            Sum:     189        74,1
Class Cost          MCr  8,16           Valid      ≥0          ≥0
Ship Cost           MCr 66,73                               
                                                            
                                                            
Crew &               High     3        Crew          Bridge     2
Passengers            Mid     3           5       Engineers     1
                      Low     8                     Gunners     0
                 Extra SR     0      Frozen         Service     2

Estimated Economy of Ship     Standard                                 
       Ship price     Down Payment         Mortgage       Avg Filled
        MCr 66,73       kCr 13 345          kCr 278              80%
                                                            
Expenses per jump                       Revenue             
Bank                Cr 200 178          High           Cr  24 000
Fuel                Cr  45 000          Middle         Cr  19 200
Life Support        Cr  19 200          Low            Cr   6 400
Salaries            Cr  14 400          Cargo          Cr 148 000
Maintenance         Cr   4 004                               
Berthing            Cr     400                               
                                                            
Summa              kCr     283                        kCr     198
                                                            
     Income potential per jump     kCr -86

Same cost, same broken economy at J-2 range, but the Far Trader can also be operated profitably at J-1 range.
The Fat Trader is also quite a lot better if we manage to fill it completely on a regular basis.

 

[Spinward Flow]

Income is per destination world, not per jump:
If you have to jump several times to get to the destination world, that is your problem.

 

[Spinward Flow]

The key point is that it gets to use the standard 400Td hull.

From a credit clipping perspective, this is incredibly relevant.
As per LBB2.81, a 400 ton standard hull costs MCr16 (before streamlining) which has 50 tons allocated to drive space.
That's the equivalent price of a 160 ton custom hull ... except you get 400 tons total (350 tons of which can be used for everything except drives).

You can even do a Jump-D, Maneuver-D, Power Plant-E (2/2/2) standard drives arrangement that requires 48 tons (only 2 tons of wasted engineering space) which then enables Double Fire programming for lasers (although you'll realistically want at least a model/3+ to run the program). The drives will cost MCr96 on their own for a D/D/E setup, but you'll only need 100 tons for fuel (80 for J2, 20 for power plant) ... leaving you 250 tons remaining for everything else you'll want to squeeze into the hull (bridge, computer, fire control, crew, revenue tonnage, small craft/vehicles ... the lot).

Sure, it'll be more costly to buy than an A2 Far Trader ... but it will also be potentially far more efficient and better at producing profits.
The trick with a 400 ton J2 merchant ship however is going to be ... where are the markets that will enable you to fill your manifest capacity most reliably?

Because as the transport capacity gets larger ... so too does the need for a services demand to avoid the outcome of jumping with empty tonnage that isn't carrying anything.

 

[Spinward Flow]

The key point is that it gets to use the standard 400Td hull.

I was taking another look at this (from a credit clipping perspective) and noticed something a little bit curious.

In a 400 ton standard hull (with 50 tons reserved for drives) there are some curious combinations of LBB2.81 standard drives that add up to 50 tons.

1. Non-starship: Maneuver-K (19 tons, MCr40), Power Plant-K (31 tons, MCr80)
   • J0 5G @ TL=11 costing 50 tons and MCr120
2. Starship: Jump-C (20 tons, MCr30), Maneuver-F (11 tons, MCr24), Power Plant-F (19 tons, MCr48)
   • J1 3G @ TL=10 costing 50 tons and MCr102 with +200 tons of external load capacity @ J1 2G
3. Starship: Jump-D (25 tons, MCr40), Maneuver-D (7 tons, MCr16), Power Plant-D (13 tons, MCr32)
   • J2 2G @ TL=10 costing 45 tons and MCr88 with +400 tons of external load capacity @ J1 1G
4. Starship: Jump-D (25 tons, MCr40), Maneuver-D (7 tons, MCr16), Power Plant-E (16 tons, MCr40)
   • J2 2G @ TL=10 costing 48 tons and MCr96 with +400 tons of external load capacity @ J1 1G and capable of lasers Double Fire

The 8 day constant acceleration "range" for 1-3G are (for micro-jump transit speed comparison purposes):

• 1G: 1,194,393,600 km (7.984 AU)
• 2G: 2,388,787,200 km (15.967 AU)
• 3G: 3,583,180,800 km (23.951 AU)

This has interesting implications for an "in-system micro-jumper" merchant ship in a 400 ton form factor using a standard hull.



The C/F/F configuration (J1 M3 PP3) would be required to spend 40 tons for 1 parsec of jump fuel and 30 tons on power plant fuel, for a required fuel tankage of 70 tons internal, leaving 350-70=280 tons for all other internal systems.

The D/D/D and D/D/E configurations (J2 M2 PP2) would be required to spend 80 tons for 2 parsecs of jump fuel and 20 tons on power plant fuel, for a required fuel tankage of 100 tons internal, leaving 350-100=250 tons for all other internal systems.

So basically, the C/F/F configuration has a slightly larger internal capacity in an "unencumbered by external loads" configuration and will be able to deliver whatever it is transporting quicker than the D/D/D or D/D/E configurations, creating a sort of "express priority" style of design aesthetic and business case (delivery in 8 days after loading or your money back!). So the C/F/F would work best in "lower volume" market segments where there simply isn't enough demand for transport capacity to "need" a D/D/D or D/D/E configured starship.

Conversely, the D/D/D or D/D/E (the latter being a Q-ship decoy variant with a more powerful computer!) would push more into the "bulk freighter" market of needing to transport greater volumes per transit at slower delivery speeds and/or need longer jump range to more quickly/reliably navigate longer distances between star systems.

Both the C/C/F as well as the D/D/D and D/D/E configurations could be fitted with collapsible fuel tanks for additional jump range.

• C/C/F with collapsible 40 ton fuel tank becomes J1+1 capable.
• C/C/F with collapsible 80 ton fuel tank becomes J1+1+1 capable.
• D/D/D or D/D/E with collapsible 40 ton fuel tank becomes J2+1 capable.
• D/D/D or D/D/E with collapsible 80 ton fuel tank becomes J2+2 capable.
• D/D/D or D/D/E with collapsible 120 ton fuel tank becomes J2+2+1 capable.
• D/D/D or D/D/E with collapsible 160 ton fuel tank becomes J2+2+2 capable.

Things get even crazier when you start figuring in external loading ...

• C/C/F with +200 tons external loading and collapsible 20 ton fuel tank remains J1 capable.
• C/C/F with +200 tons external loading and collapsible 80 ton fuel tank becomes J1+1 capable.
• C/C/F with +200 tons external loading and collapsible 140 ton fuel tank becomes J1+1+1 capable.
• D/D/D or D/D/E with +400 tons external loading and no additional fuel remains J1 capable.
• D/D/D or D/D/E with +400 tons external loading and collapsible 80 ton fuel tank becomes J1+1 capable.
• D/D/D or D/D/E with +400 tons external loading and collapsible 160 ton fuel tank becomes J1+1+1 capable.

And then there's the option of L-Hyd Drop Tanks, which can shift the additional fuel required from the interior to the exterior of the hull, freeing up additional internal capacity (depending on location, location, location support services).



And as if all of THAT wasn't enough shenanigans to be getting up to with this sort of thing ... consider this additional wrinkle on for size.

Those are LBB2.81 standard drives installed on a LBB2.81 standard 400 ton hull.



Why is that (at all) relevant?
Well ... because ... those standard drives are going be relatively EASY for a shipyard to swap in and out as a retrofit, if desired, in a standard hull.

Let that sink in for a minute.
I'll wait while the implications filter through the pachinko machine of thinking about what that could mean in terms of markets and "upgrades towards best fit" for those markets.

• Jump drives ... C or D (TL=9).
• Maneuver drives ... D (TL=9) or F (TL=10).
• Power plant drives ... D (TL=9), E or F (TL=10).

TL=10 upper bound makes model/4 computers available ... which are quite capable of running the Double Fire program with lasers (if using LBB2.81 programming rules in ship to ship combat).



And oh, hey look ... Vilis/Vilis/Spinward Marches is a TL=10 Industrial world with a type A starport ...

I wonder if anyone THERE ever thought about a "design once, get three different ships" kind of approach to this sort of space transport services problem?

Maybe ...?
(View -> Full Star System)

 

[aramis]

The only meaningful difference between J2+2, J2+1 and J1+2 in the context of a 200 ton form factor (such as an A2.*) is that with a collapsible fuel tank you get 20 tons of cargo capacity back ... which amounts to Cr20,000 of revenue per ticket, per jump ... again highlighting the all important distinction that pricing is Cr/Jump, rather than Cr/Parsec.

That's because the economic model of Traveller trade is not based upon distance ... it is instead founded upon "tonnage and TIME" (spent in transits) as opposed to "tonnage and DISTANCE" (parsecs traveled).

This is why ticket prices are the same per jump, regardless of jump range (see: LBB2.81, p9 for example, as already cited above).

Not 20, 19.8. The collapsed tank still takes 1% of its capacity Noting that HG design seemingly rounds up to whole ton except for Low Berths and Couches, you'd get 19 back. (HG only allows fractional results on formulas for small craft. Mentioned in the section on small craft.)

 

[Grav_Moped]

Starship: Jump-C (20 tons, MCr30), Maneuver-F (11 tons, MCr24), Power Plant-F (19 tons, MCr48)

• J1 3G @ TL=10 costing 50 tons and MCr102 with +200 tons of external load capacity @ J1 2G

But why, other than to stuff unnecessary expensive machinery into otherwise unusable space? Jump B is all that's needed.

Which, I see, is precisely what you're doing there, on purpose.

That's the thing that bothers me most about the "standard hull" rule: those hulls should match the most common/likely drive allocation in each tonnage. It works for the Types S and A, but for the R (especially) and everything else, they don't. Admittedly, there's not much choice in a 100Td hull -- but, other than its sheer uselessness for anything else, the XBoat hull should be a second standard in the 100Td range based on quantity in service. One might also consider a second standard for 200Td, that suits the A2, if the A2 were conventionally profitable (it's not, and wasting the extra drive bay space for a Type A to have room to upgrade makes the Type A conventionally unprofitable too).

It also suggests that all ships with standard hulls of a given size and streamlining characteristics look alike. A streamlined version of the Type Y would look like a Type A; a non-streamlined Type A would look like a Type Y.

 

[Spinward Flow]

Not 20, 19.8. The collapsed tank still takes 1% of its capacity

Actually ... I think you'll find ... LBB A5, p13:

When not in use, collapsible tanks collapse and are stored in the cargo hold; they take up 1%of their filled tonnage.

A 20 ton collapsible fuel tank occupies 20 tons when full ... and 0.2 tons when empty.

So a 40 ton cargo bay with a 20 ton collapsible fuel tank moves between the following options:

1. 20 tons of cargo space and 20 tons of fuel inside collapsible fuel tank (full of fuel)
2. 39.8 tons of cargo space and 0.2 tons of collapsible fuel tank (empty of fuel)

In a lot of scenarios you would want to have that 40 tons of cargo space available if the collapsible fuel tank is empty, so you would ordinarily allocate (in this example) ... 40 tons for cargo bay and another 0.2 tons for the collapsible fuel tank, for a combined 40.2 tons allocation.

This is where having a "spare ton of cargo hold space" available comes in handy (82 tons, 61 tons, 46 tons, etc.) that isn't divisible by 5 (minor cargo) or 10 (major cargo). It gives a ship "leftover space" to work in these kinds of aftermarket modification options if the owner/operator wants to include them.

Jump B is all that's needed.

Jump-B is all that's needed in a purely internal only Traveller universe mandated by the Referee.
As soon as you start allowing "external load capacity" to be used ... Jump-C becomes a VERY obvious choice (+10MCr to the build cost in order add +200 tons of external loading capacity through jump? WHERE DO I SIGN?!?!)

the XBoat hull should be a second standard in the 100Td range based on quantity in service.

Actually, the LBB2.77 XBoat does use a 100 ton standard (not streamlined) hull ...

Jump-B = 4 parsecs for 15 tons
Maneuver-none
Power plant-none

It's just the LBB2.81 rules that mess that up ... requiring a power plant for a jump drive.
LBB2.77 only required a power plant for the maneuver drive ... and since XBoats don't have maneuver drives ...

LBB2.77, p13:

The installed power plant must be of a letter type at least equal to the drive letter of the installed maneuver drive (the power plant letter may be higher than the maneuver drive letter).

It also suggests that all ships with standard hulls of a given size and streamlining characteristics look alike. A streamlined version of the Type Y would look like a Type A; a non-streamlined Type A would look like a Type Y.

That's an overly broad interpretation.
In LBB2 starship design, the only thing that Streamlining does is enable atmospheric entry. It does not ipso/facto mean that all streamlined craft use exactly the same configuration. It took until HG and the options for configuration for that to become relevant in the way you're describing.

Yes, from a price parity perspective, every LBB2 streamlined craft amounts to a Cone Configuration under HG ... but that's an "after the fact" kind of translation discovery.

The hilarious thing is ... with gravitics technology, streamlining ISN'T NEEDED for atmospheric entry!

If maneuver acceleration power available exceeds local gravity, a craft can "orbital geosynch" using maneuvering power at ANY distance and then ascend/descent in synchronous rotation with the world body.

It's like the difference between CTOL and VTOL.

For a no maneuvering power entry into atmosphere, you have to "wipe off" a LOT of delta-v through friction with any atmosphere ... hence the need for streamlining. Essentially, you have to "hit the atmosphere fast" and then use the atmospheric braking to slow you down to sub-orbital velocities through atmospheric entry. Much like CTOL ... this is the "land then stop" order of operations (hit the atmosphere first, then come to a stop).

That all changes with continuous acceleration maneuvering power.
With maneuvering power, the entire atmospheric entry procedure and flight profile changes radically. You use your maneuvering power to geosynch while orbiting ... and then slowly descend down into the atmosphere while sustaining maneuvering power to continuously geosynch through the descent. Much like VTOL ... this is the "stop then land" order of operations (come to a stop over your landing zone first, then lower altitude until contact).

The consequences of this would then be that Streamlined craft can use aerobraking entry flight profiles (which are fast enough to descend in minutes!) while Partially Streamlined craft would be force to use geosynch entry flight profiles (which are slow and could take hours/days to maneuver through). The Streamlined craft are "nimble" in atmosphere and can use atmosphere to their advantage ... while the Partially Streamlined craft are "lumbering" in atmosphere and need to move like ... well ... oversized air/rafts.

 

[Grav_Moped]

Jump-B is all that's needed in a purely internal only Traveller universe mandated by the Referee.

It's LBB2'81, not "referee mandated".

It's just the LBB2.81 rules that mess that up ... requiring a power plant for a jump drive.
LBB2.77 only required a power plant for the maneuver drive ... and since XBoats don't have maneuver drives ...

Which is my point. Unless you're reverting to superseded ('77) rules, it needs a custom hull. And if "standard" designs are based on in-universe characteristics (that is, they're standard because enough of them get built that they yield far more than the usual 10%-off quantity discounts), there should be a "standard" one that fits the LBB2'81 XBoat.

They're not, of course. It's a game mechanic.

That's an overly broad interpretation.
In LBB2 starship design, the only thing that Streamlining does is enable atmospheric entry. It does not ipso/facto mean that all streamlined craft use exactly the same configuration. It took until HG and the options for configuration for that to become relevant in the way you're describing.

Yes, from a price parity perspective, every LBB2 streamlined craft amounts to a Cone Configuration under HG ... but that's an "after the fact" kind of translation discovery.

It's merely taking the definition of a "standard hull" literally. This is the hull they build in that size on spec, because there's always a buyer (so by the time you place the order, it's already in work). They'll fit out the interior to suit, but the rest of it is a fixed design. Most of the 200Td standard streamlined hulls become Type As. The nonstreamlined ones are likely mini-liners or cheap freighters (there's probably not enough demand for Type Ys that they drive the market for that hull).

It's just that the streamlined one happens to look like a Beowulf, because reasons.

The ATU my first ref set up (mostly LBB2 but with a variant energy source) had all unstreamlined hulls as spheres, streamlined ships as prolate (stretched) spheroids, and streamlined small craft as oblate (squished) spheroids. A standard hull makes perfect sense in that context.

 

[mike wightman]

There are two streamlined 100t standard hulls at least - the type S and the serpent class.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

The Suleiman (S7) and the Serpent are both standard Type S. Type S is the specification, the Serpent is the implementation.



There are several "standard" Free Traders with the same specification, but different layouts. The Yacht is just a Free Trader with a different number and standard of stateroom, but customarily a different shape.

A standard hull or a standard ship design is a specification, not the exact same hull shape. There is no reason for a General and Ling Free Trader to look exactly the same. Or a Spinward Marches ship vs. a Solomani Rim ship.

Just like types of current jet-liners have similar performance and cost, whether Airbus, Boeing, or something else.

 

[Grav_Moped]

A standard hull or a standard ship design is a specification, not the exact same hull shape. There is no reason for a General and Ling Free Trader to look exactly the same. Or a Spinward Marches ship vs. a Solomani Rim ship.

Just like types of current jet-liners have similar performance and cost, whether Airbus, Boeing, or something else.

Oh, as-played, of course there are multiple "Standard Hull" configurations for each tonnage. How could it be otherwise, when LBB2 didn't even have illustrations of its ships and left that up to the referees and players?

It has to be more than a specification though, because the standardization is the justification for the discount. And after a few thousand years of building starships, the designs have likely been optimized as far as practical. I can see each major shipyard corporation (General and Ling as in your example) having a standard for each tonnage since they build in such large quantities. Smaller shipyards would license those -- or buy the hulls directly (perhaps with the drives already installed!) Even more, I can see the hull for the Type S absolutely being uniform across the Imperium because there's one massive customer for it that would benefit greatly from standardization.

Again, that's not how it works out in the game-universe as-played, but it's how it would probably work if it were a "real" universe.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

The only thing that really needs to be the same is the dimensions of the drives and the engineering compartment.

If a few staterooms moves around a bit in the ship, no fleet buyer will really care.


Actually having standardised ships over centuries and tens of thousands of star systems seems unlikely...
Is all the world using Liberty ships for freight?

 

[kilemall]

Another factor and concept to consider- the IND worlds typically have a -3 or more modification for speculative goods. I translate that to a base 30% off of most manufactured goods, then figure goods would travel well on a 10% of full price basis for cost of shipping, leaving a juicy 10-20% margin for profit.

The margins are better shipping expensive components like engineering and computers, but the IND planets could swamp local markets with shipping entire ships and undercutting yards.

 

[Grav_Moped]

The only thing that really needs to be the same is the dimensions of the drives and the engineering compartment.

Not really, otherwise there would be standard drive bays, not standard hulls.

I'm seeing this as the hull (entire structure), engineering space, and bridge space being fixed features, with the remaining space (fuel, cargo, accommodations, computer, weapons) being open to variations. To be fair, it's not the way the game is actually ever played, but it's clearly implied by the existence of standard hulls.

If a few staterooms moves around a bit in the ship, no fleet buyer will really care.

Fleet buyers will care, for logistics and training standardization. Individual buyers won't, though.

Actually having standardised ships over centuries and tens of thousands of star systems seems unlikely...
Is all the world using Liberty ships for freight?

No, but Liberty Ships pre-date the current containerization paradigm and used steam engines.

As of the Golden Age (1105), TL-14 has been available for 2.5 40-year ship service-life generations, and TL-13 for more than 12 (1000IE and 600IE, respectively) -- TL-15 is presented as cutting-edge, at least for general use. That's plenty of time to coalesce around a set of best practices, especially in a civilization that strives for conformity.

The point I'm getting at is one of my occasionally annoying hobby horses: the idea that the ship construction and operation rules reflect the underlying "engineering" and "physics" of the game universe (or at least try to). Where they're inconsistent with that, it's likely due to an in-universe regulation.

There's nothing magical about the hull for a Type S that accounts for it costing only 1/3 of what any other 100Td streamlined ship's hull costs, or saves 10% of its construction time; or, for the Type A, saves 54% of the cost and 9% of the build time. (Well, there is: it's an arbitrary game mechanic to make those ships more affordable -- in-universe, I suppose that's "magic".) We are left with the task of coming up with an in-universe reason for the discount. One possibility is that these specific hulls are mass-produced and incorporate every conceivable production efficiency that thousands of shipyards and centuries of production could devise. Another is that there's a mature market for fully-refurbished used hulls of those specifications (which implies an industry dedicated to hull refurbishment...)

 

[Grav_Moped]

Another factor and concept to consider- the IND worlds typically have a -3 or more modification for speculative goods. I translate that to a base 30% off of most manufactured goods, then figure goods would travel well on a 10% of full price basis for cost of shipping, leaving a juicy 10-20% margin for profit.

The margins are better shipping expensive components like engineering and computers, but the IND planets could swamp local markets with shipping entire ships and undercutting yards.

Easy enough: Build the ship with just the drives, bridge, minimal computer, minimal crew quarters, and a demountable fuel tank. Fly it to the point of sale, where the local shipyard can strip out everything but the bridge and drives (perhaps even sending them back for re-use), then refit the interior to the buyer's preferences. Or, if you've got a big enough freighter handy, ship the entire ship.

 

[aramis]

Oh, as-played, of course there are multiple "Standard Hull" configurations for each tonnage. How could it be otherwise, when LBB2 didn't even have illustrations of its ships and left that up to the referees and players?

Let's consider the SF universes Marc, Frank, Loren, and the other chap would likely have had access to at the time, and which had sets of standardized hulls.

Doc Smith gives us a double dose of influence and references...

• We know Lensman did have an impact - the lens itself is present as a suggestion for house ruling. But it lacks standardized hulls. Each ship is fairly well presented as bespoke in much the same way age of sail ships were.
• There is a direct lift from the Fuzzy series: the air/raft.

We have hints of Niven - especially with the Aslan and Hivers - in CT as well. And it does have standard hulls... but each hull type is a fixed proportion, and a specific size, with a specific drive bay; due to the way General Products Hulls are made, you literally cannot move the bulkheads without majorly bespoke hardware - GP Hulls are monomolecular... as in, the ship is one superlarge molecule. The hull shapes are optimized for the stardrives, too - there's an optimal shape (IIRC, that's referenced in one of the novels, Protector, I think.) [The Aslan are, like the Kzinti, upright xenofelinoids that have a superficial resemblance to terran big cats, a warrior culture, major gender issues, and a history of wars with the Terrans . The Hivers are closely parallel to the the Puppeteers... but different bodyform and lack of abject xenophobic paranoia. I find it ironic that Nessus is the mate of the Hindmost... the most insane puppeteer bonded to the leader of them all?)

We have the joint works of Niven and Pournelle at the late end of the Codominion setting. Ships are variable in shape and size, but the ones we get to see in the early releases (pre-77) are bespoke. (At least, by the end of Mote...)
Falkenberg's Legion, set in the dawn of the CoDoVerse, is not wordy about ships. They exist, they travel through alderson points using a jump drive, and they do a lot of constant thrust in-system travel between jumps.

Allan Dean Foster was churning out Star Trek Logs... we only see 3 classes of federation ships (CA, robot freighter, and the ship in Journey to Eden) in TOS and the Logs therefrom, and an additional two in TAS (Bonaventure class and another robot freighter); TOS never shows us the ship Charlie was on (Charlie X) nor those of Harry Mudd nor Cyrano Jones, All other ships are Non-federation.
Foster's own works (rather than adaptations of others' works) really don't become dominant until the 80's. His influence on CT is dubious at best, but his influence on post-CT editions

Heinlein give us (and Traveller( battlesuit infantry, and a variety of man portable overkill.... but the ships are nothing special to him, so we only know they're purpose designed and built in classes.

Long story short, the idea of standardized hulls looks, from what I've been exposed to in literature, is a Nivenism... And Niven's GP Hulls are all the same shape.