The A2

[AnotherDilbert]

Long story short, the idea of standardized hulls looks, from what I've been exposed to in literature, is a Nivenism... And Niven's GP Hulls are all the same shape.

Agreed, Niven is the only source I can think of for standard hulls, or even that much detail about ship construction at all.

 

[mike wightman]

Wasn't General Products enough of a hint as to Niven's influence?

 

[AnotherDilbert]

Not really, otherwise there would be standard drive bays, not standard hulls.

Why would it have to be a universal standard hull? Why would a Ziru Sirka standard hull (if they had that?) be identical to a Zhodani standard hull thousands of years later?

It's enough if it's a standard for this shipyard, this region, this corporation, etc. All you need is that your particular shipyard can build it quickly and cheaply.

I'm seeing this as the hull (entire structure), engineering space, and bridge space being fixed features, with the remaining space (fuel, cargo, accommodations, computer, weapons) being open to variations. To be fair, it's not the way the game is actually ever played, but it's clearly implied by the existence of standard hulls.

Niven states that, Traveller never does. I see no such necessary implication.

Fleet buyers will care, for logistics and training standardization. Individual buyers won't, though.

Do major shipping companies operate only a single standard ship class for decades or centuries? No.

They build a few ships of a particular class, then when technological or economical conditions change they switch to other types, standardisation be damned.

No, but Liberty Ships pre-date the current containerization paradigm and used steam engines.

They made perfect sense for a few years, but when the war ended conditions changed.

Did the worlds shipping industry look at that example and say "let's build only a few standard ship types cheaply forever"? No.

As of the Golden Age (1105), TL-14 has been available for 2.5 40-year ship service-life generations, and TL-13 for more than 12 (1000IE and 600IE, respectively) -- TL-15 is presented as cutting-edge, at least for general use. That's plenty of time to coalesce around a set of best practices, especially in a civilization that strives for conformity.

The 3I isn't the Ziru Sirka.

The Imperium may like stability, but they like cash and tech better, or so I would presume from the available canon.

The 3I has something I believe the 1I never had: High-tech at least near-peer competitors that they fight every so often. A 3I that suppressed technology and stagnated would be a conquered ex-empire. Just like the 1I shows.

The point I'm getting at is one of my occasionally annoying hobby horses: the idea that the ship construction and operation rules reflect the underlying "engineering" and "physics" of the game universe (or at least try to). Where they're inconsistent with that, it's likely due to an in-universe regulation.

LBB2 is extremely simplified. It hardly even deals with TLs.

Deducing 53rd century engineering from LBB2 ship design, or 53rd century interstellar economics from the trade system, is an exercise in futility.

Trying to determine how reality has changed over centuries or even millennia from an entirely static system is even worse...

There's nothing magical about the hull for a Type S that accounts for it costing only 1/3 of what any other 100Td streamlined ship's hull costs, ...

All custom hull cost a minimum of MCr 20, so it's actually 10% of the cost.

LBB2 really doesn't want you to build non-standard 100 Dt ships.

(Well, there is: it's an arbitrary game mechanic to make those ships more affordable -- in-universe, I suppose that's "magic".)

I do believe you are on to something here...

 

[mike wightman]

1105 Imperial is the 57th century.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

1105 Imperial is the 57th century.

OK, thanks, correction appreciated.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

We have hints of Niven - especially with the Aslan and Hivers - in CT as well. And it does have standard hulls... but each hull type is a fixed proportion, and a specific size, with a specific drive bay; due to the way General Products Hulls are made, you literally cannot move the bulkheads without majorly bespoke hardware - GP Hulls are monomolecular... as in, the ship is one superlarge molecule.

It's worth noting that standard hulls in Known Space is a completely different technology bought from an alien race. It's not something slightly simplified or mass-produced by your local shipyard.

 

[aramis]

Wasn't General Products enough of a hint as to Niven's influence?

Not for those who haven't read much of Niven's Known Space. The CoDoVerse doesn't have GP Co nor GP hulls. (My first Niven experience was ST TOS, next was The Integral Trees, some 10 years apart, with CT being encountered betwixt them.)

Plus, references to General Products are in subordinate materials from 4+ years later (Sup 8...) while the standard hulls are part of '77
It's also worth notinng that the discount is most notable at small sizes.

Anyway, back to the values in them.

Let's check some datapoints in '77

Td	SH MCr	CH MCr	%	SH Drive JMP
100	2	10	20%	AAA 15/15
200	8	20	40%	AAA 15/15
400	16	40	40%	CCC 35/50 J1 M1 P1 DDD 45/50 J2 M2 P2 FCC 50/50 J3 M1 P1
600	48	60	80%	DDD 45/80 J1 M1 P1 FFF 65/80 J2 M2 P2 FJJ 80/80 J2 M3 P3 JDD 80/80 J3 M1 M1
800	80	80	100%	FFF 65/165 J1 M1 P1 HHH 80/165 J2 M2 P2 MMM 125/165 J3 M3 P3 RMM 145/165 J4 M3 P3 TMM 155/165 J5 M3 P3 ZHH 165/165 J6 M2 P2
1000	100	100	100%	HHH 80/165 J1 M1 P1 KKK 105/165 J2 M2 P2 QQQ 155/165 J3 M3 P3 KVV 155/165 J2 M4 P4 ZHH 165/165 J6 M1 P1

Not all possible combinations included.

One other consideration on Bk2 designs: higher than integer ratings do have a benefit -- damage resistance. Since Bk2 damage is "Works as if one letter smaller per hit of damage"....

If one allows fuel in the engineering section, then it's not wasted space, either.

The Bk2-'81 doesn't work out so pristinely - all the letters above are minimum for rating in given hull.

 

[mike wightman]

We are introduced to General Products in JTAS news and A:1 Kinunir - so the setting has been influenced.

 

[aramis]

We are introduced to General Products in JTAS news and A:1 Kinunir - so the setting has been influenced.

That's still 2+ years on.
Also, A1 is by Games Workshop. It's canon, but it's also not necessarily indicative of GDWs influences at the time. It also has unusual design (draft Bk5?)

 

[mike wightman]

Odd, the electronic copies and the three paper copies I have of A1 do not mention Games Workshop at all. Adventure 4 on the other hand clearly states the Games Workshop involvement.

Do you have a source for this statement that A1 was Games Workshop, I've seen it made before but never found any evidence for it. It would be very odd for GDW to allow a third party to invent the setting...

I found this:

Traveller Adventure 1: The Kinunir - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

which states A1 was written by Marc, and digging out my old copy of WD 19 the review makes no mention of the adventure being written by Games Workshop. Travellerwiki also gives the author as MWM?

 

[Grav_Moped]

Long story short, the idea of standardized hulls looks, from what I've been exposed to in literature, is a Nivenism... And Niven's GP Hulls are all the same shape.

They were the same shape for each size. The colony-ship one that was used for the Long Shot was a sphere, the one used for Hot Needle of Inquiry was, I think, a very stretched prolate spheroid if it wasn't a long double-cone (my memory of it's bit hazy after all these years) with delta "wings" outside of the hull proper (and not the same material).

 

[mike wightman]

I will check the Ringworld rpg, it has pictures of all of them.

 

[mike wightman]

Sorry for the later reply but I totally forgot about this.

General Products Hull	Configuration	Traveller displacement	Notes
number 1	sphere 30cm diameter	0.001 tons	two larger Pierin variants 20m and 40m diameter
number 2	cylinder 6m diameter, 90m long	170-180 tons	tapered to a point at both ends, wasp-waist nearer one end
number 3	cylinder 35m diameter, 150m long	10,000 tons	hemispherical end caps, flattened belly for landing
number 4	sphere 300m diameter	1,000,000-125,000,000	four possible variants up to 1500m diameter

I'll calculate approximate Traveller displacement tonnage in a bit.
Edit - thanks to Another Dilbert

 

[AnotherDilbert]

sphere 30cm diameter

I presume 30 m diameter?

1 ~1 000 Dt
2 ~170 Dt? (about 180 Dt minus the taper)
3 ~10 000 Dt
4 ~1 000 000 Dt - 125 000 000 Dt

 

[mike wightman]

No, 30cm, a bit over the size of a basketball. I make it 0.001tons or 14litres

 

[AnotherDilbert]

Remarkably Travelleresque sizes...

 

[mike wightman]

Yup, and the 20m and 40m no.1 hull variants would be 300 tons and 2400 tons.