The problem here is that the original version has been criticised for its implausibilities for over 30 years. It would have been nice if a present-day adaptation had fixed those implausibilities.
Hans
* the artist
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Hans
I don't care - I felt that the best thing to do was to ignore it rather than make a big fuss over it, but leaving that aside, it's a bit late for that, isn't it?
:devil:I honestly don't care what you think. You apparently want to tell me that I'm wrong not to care though.
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It's also about as bad as the original adventure too. But I blame the source material
Not what I asked.
No, I just want to be allowed to respond to any comment you care enough to post. Provided I care to, of course.
Hans
It is? Has Mongoose gone out of business, then? There's no chance that they'll be convinced by our eloquent arguments to change their ways? Is it really too late?
Darn!
Hans
Ignoring it implies tolerance, if not acceptance, of such inflammatory word choices. Such would only perpetuate this board's reputation of being openly hostile to Mongoose Publishing's product. I had been under the impression that this board had moved past that.
It is the violent expression of the criticism and the apparent tolerance for such violent expression here that bothers me.
Criticism is criticism. From what I have seen ( and I do not own the products mentioned specifically ), the quality of the artwork is good and even better than past edition's artwork in most cases. The style seems appropriate as opposed to rendering it as Pollock, Dali or Picasso might. I can't say if it is consistent with the text in that book as opposed to texts from previous editions. So far, the greatest majority of criticisms against that artwork seems to center on it not being accurate according to past editions, which would be a mistake.
But the older editions are now as well. FFE is actively publishing them without bothering to 'sort out' the bad art or errata ( as far as I understand based on posts in other forum topics anyways ). So earlier versions are, like Mongoose's version, still the present and not the past. See the difference? Criticisms of this sort should still be leveled at FFE as well, right? Just to be fair and non-hypocritical.
btw.. Aslan are anthropomorphic samurai lions despite all the protestations to the contrary.
African lions' social structure with Sengoku period Japan's culture layered on top.
Just visualize and play them how you like without without too much wailing and teeth-gnashing about the truth of it, please.
Fair enough. It was childish and inappropriate and if I had thought that the poster was serious, it would have upset me considerably.
I disagree that the case is analogous. In any case I think the point is moot. I'm under no obligation to give equal time to criticism of all different Traveller versions.
Why? This is a forum for discussing Mongoose Traveller. Do we really have to include boilerplate to the effect that "nothing in this post is to be taken as approval of past mistakes in past Traveller versions that resemble the ones under discussion in this thread"? Not in my opinion.
You may be right about the original inspiration. You'll have to discuss that with the original authors. The point is that even if you're right, they are aliens, evolved on an alien world by convergent evolution to resemble anthropomorphic lions with a social structure that resemble samurai. That being so, it's a great mistake to decrease the difference between the two comcepts.
Mea Culpa. I thought I was expressing just the right amount of wailing and teeth-gnashing. Would you please provide instructions for how much wailing and teeth-gnashing will you permit me?
(Oh, and perhaps also explain just what right you have to give such an order, please).
Hans
DISCLAIMER: Nothing in this post is to be taken as implicit approval of mistakes made in other Traveller versions that resemble the ones under discussion in this thread. To the extent that such mistakes are truly analogous, disapproval of such mistakes should be assumed.
dhyden
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Don't take it too hard Hans, the mongoose fan boys will defend the system with their last breath....oh no was that going too far???
Don't take it too hard Hans, the mongoose fan boys will defend the system with their last breath....oh no was that going too far???
Actually, by calling me a fanboy of a system I don't even use just shows a certain level of ignorance concerning me and level of prejudice against the current Traveller licensed publisher. Were you attempting to cast an insult*? See definition #3.
If you had been paying attention instead of engaging in knee-jerk responses, you would have seen that rather than defending Mongoose, I was calling into question the tolerance/acceptance of statements, that could be considered death threats in most circumstances, by many of the people here. Clearly a definite lack of civility and socially acceptable behavior is welcomed within this community, but only when displayed against certain groups. How very pathetic....
*various definitions of fanboy from off the 'net
1. A person who is completely loyal to a game or company regardless of if they suck or not.
2. Someone whose respect for a writer, director etc has gotten so out of control that they consider them to be infailable, beyond any reproach, good by definition.
3. A pathetic insult often used by fanboys themselves to try and put down people who don't like whatever it is they like.
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Ranke2: From a social and cultural point of view, they just aren't that alien. In any case, a well-developed rubber-suit is preferable to a cardboard stereotype.
But Ishmael isn't a Moongoose fanboy. He don't care either way, so he can't be a Mongoose fan. He simply thinks we're silly to care.Don't take it too hard Hans, the mongoose fan boys will defend the system with their last breath....oh no was that going too far???
I, OTOH, do not think I'm being silly.
Hans
But that's an entirely different issue and has nothing whatsoever to do with whether or not Moongoose Aslans are deserving of unfavorable comment.
The statement was definitely inappropriate, but I think that interpreting it as a death threat is a ludicrous over-reaction. I don't for one second believe that the OP was even comtemplating GBH, or even just spitting, when he wrote what he did.
That's a pretty hard statement. Do you have any actual proof of that? Examples of similar statements against other groups that were reacted to differently? Any examples at all, let alone enough to make a clear pattern? Because if you don't have proof, I don't think you should be making that kind of damaging statements.
Hans
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That's a perennial problem with aliens. The way to alleviate it is to elaborate on the differences, not increase the stereotyping.
So why do you feel that increasing the cardboard content of the Aslans by making them more lion-like is not a step in the wrong direction?
Hans
dhyden
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Ishmael Don't take yourself soooo serious ol'boy. 1 This is a message board and 2 the posts are opinions of the posters. So if you feel bothered by what was said, then you need to grow tough skin. And if you had been paying attention you would see my posts from the beginning of this beast. Also if you don't like the criticism of one system my I suggest that you get in contact with one of the mods, ask them to cancel your membership, and then find another site where everyone gets into drum circles and have group hugs. Other than that I or anyone else is able to help you.
Perhaps you can explain that too. If anyone posts an opinion contrary to your own you seem to jump down their throats and imply that they're somehow oppressing you or preventing you from expressing your own opinion. It's completely untrue, overly defensive and in my opinion quite tiresome.
I would ask that you just say what you have to say and be done with it, without commenting on this ridiculous idea that other people are preventing you from speaking your mind. If nothing else I feel that a lot of the converation is veering towards personal attacks here now.
(as for the "right to give such an order", it's just general politeness. You don't have to be so confrontational about everything. But if you lack respect for other users so much that you'd ignore such requests, and believe that only a mod can ask you to change your behaviour then so be it).
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Lots of people disagree with me without provoking any reaction even remotely like the one you impute here. But it's true that I do have some hot buttons. One of the biggest are double standards. Having people imply that my concerns are silly while theirs are somehow more valid does annoy me. Sometimes to the point of reacting more sharply than perhaps strictly necessary.
Hans
People can say that they think "your concerns are silly" all they like, but it certainly don't see how that translates to "not allowing you to care about it". And it isn't necessarily a case of "double standards" either. Sometimes it's perfectly fair to point out that concerns are unjustified or overblown, and sometimes the counter-point *is* more valid.
Ultimately, you're the one in control of your reactions. If you acknowledge that they're coming out "more sharply than strictly necessary" then you should probably take that as a sign that you need to consider toning them down. As it is I think you resort to sarcasm and snarky comments too much, which does not encourage civilized discussion.
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I have no issue concerning whether or not Mongoose Aslans are open to be criticized...I'd just as roundly criticize any edition's Aslans and already have at various times as well as many many things from the various versions of Traveller. I think I've been pretty clear that it is the tolerance and acceptance of the original poster's violent words that I have an issue with.
I really don't believe it either, but this site is (AFAIK) MWM's official site for the support and fan discusion of the primary editions of Traveller and thus it reflects on the entire Traveller community.
Consider that were I to say the same thing at my workplace, I would be fired and possibly be arrested for making a terroristic threat should someone who didn't know me overhear.
If I am having a ludicrous over-reaction, then I say strongly that the vocal community here is having a ludicrous under-reaction ( ignoring it implies tolerance and acceptance ).
The groups I mention are not individual game systems/editions, but any that dare to go against 'canon'. And the main criticisms against the artwork seem to be related to differences from that standard. Most of the criticisms seem to fall onto Mongoose primarily because they are the only major publisher to be producing anything new for Traveller and in order to not simply publish the same old materials again and again, they sometimes publish things that are not merely a rehash of the old editions*....which is what makes it new. And makes them the easy target for criticisms for not adhering strictly to old canon.
Here is a link to a thread where a number of complaints were aired about how things have been here.
I could post links to other boards where such were discussed a fair bit. It doesn't take much to notice a pattern.
http://www.travellerrpg.com/CotI/Discuss/showthread.php?t=22732
I had hoped things were changed, but the overall ambivalence towards "shooting" folks who create works you don't like calls that into question.
Given that this board is owned by MWM and something of a company site for FFE as a center of support for its products, tolerance/acceptance of such violently emotional critiques can only erode this site's creditability and hurt Traveller as a product.
*okay, lately they are rehashing old stuff, but I gather that the reasons involve a strong reactionary stance concerning older materials and 'canon' issues by powers that be....big surprise.
Just to be clear, Mr.Ranke, it is not your concerns about criticising various editions that I think is silly or less valid. Those are a matter of taste only.
What I think is silly and outright stupid is the overall lack of concern about the level of civility that comments like "shoot the artist" and " fix it or me and my gun will " point to. They reflect badly on the entire community and openly tolerated hostility will only drive potential posters away and there are already too few active posters when compared to the number the site claims as registered (12,213).
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We already know that we will disagree about rubber suit aslans and what constitutes cardboard and stereotypes. It is better in a different thread anyways. If you really want to get into it, I will, even though nothing will get agreed upon and that it'll be tiring more than constructive anyways.
What would happen if you said it in a group of friends?
I don't see anything odious in being of the opinion that gratuitous changes to canon is a Bad Thing. Though I gather that the main criticism of this particular artwork is that it differs from the text it illustrates, the text having stuck to previously published descriptions of the Aslans.
In my case the criticisms are about gratuitous changes to canon, not just any change. Oh, and also critcism when they fail to change bits of canon that doesn't really work and need to be changed.
The link is to a thread where allegations similar to yours are posted, also without evidence to back it up. I'm asking for evidence of the double standard you claim is rampant.
You mean it's a general tendency, applied equally to everyone?
What I deplore is the tendency to interpret remarks like that as evidence of deep hostility. Inappropriate, yes. Puerile, yes. Worthy of an admonishment, a verbal slap on the fingers by a moderator, sure. But worthy of being dignified by being taken serious? Not in my opinion.
Hans
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For the record, I never used the word odious; you have. Once again, I never said a difference of opinion is a bad thing. Its the manner in which these differences are put across that is an issue. Its one thing to say " I don't think the artwork is any good, because (insert reason here). It could be made better by (insert a possible correction here).", "The artwork sucks!", and "The artist needs to be shot!". One is constructive criticism, the second is bashing and the third is just wrong and intolerable in a public forum. Why is that so hard to understand?
I do not have the book and thus do not know if the art differs from the text. Maybe it does, but its just as likely that the art is being judged based on pre-conceived expectations and text from earlier editions too.
Unless I purchase the book in question ( unlikely as I perceive that it is yet another rehash of materials I've already owned; not enough new in it to be worth the price to me ), I suppose I'll never really be sure if the pictures match the book's text or not..
No problem there. Just understand that the changes you don't want are 'gratuitous' and the ones you do want, you'd like retconned, but other people may have totally different wants and definitions for 'gratuitous' than you.
dude....
All of those making the allegations certainly felt strongly enough to speak up about it. Many have left here, won't return to contribute here again because of the hostility they alleged. How many left without saying a word? Consider a goodly number of them as eye-witnesses. Unless you have proof that they all lied. The fact that these boards have so few regular posters despite covering so many editions of the game should be enough evidence to cause a bit of concern. As evidence, I present the fact that hostile words ( "shoot the artist" ) are tolerated here. I present the fact that numbers of individuals were willing to voice allegations of a hostile environment here. I present as evidence that numbers of them left due to a perceived hostile environment. I present as evidence the fact that there is a lingering perception elsewhere that this board is hostile to non-canon approved ideas. I have no intention of reading several years worth of posts, so go find your own evidence. Whatever you find won't change the four statements above.
I never used 'deep hostility'...you have. You're implying that I've said things that I haven't..please stop that.
Deplore it all you like. It is your opinion.
My opinion is that dignifying such remarks by accepting and tolerating them leads to a continued perception of hostility here. Recall that ignoring such remarks is the same as implicitly accepting/tolerating them. If such were to drive even a single player away from contributing here, then the community loses. If it drives any potential players away, then it should be taken seriously.
What I deplore the tendency to stand by idly and allow that to happen.
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So what would happen if I said it in a group of friends?
That's strictly between my friends and myself. I can't think of anyone from any on-line board that I've never met face-to-face that will ever find out. No offense meant, but its none of your business.
To be honest, considering how irrelevant my relationships among my friends are to the discussion, why would you even ask such a personal question?
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