* the artist

[rancke]

For the record, I never used the word odious; you have.

Substitute the word 'wrong', then.

I do not have the book and thus do not know if the art differs from the text. Maybe it does, but its just as likely that the art is being judged based on pre-conceived expectations and text from earlier editions too.

From the first post in this thread:

"Its a bit jarring when the the illustrations just dont work with the text."
​

From the second post in this thread:

"I was also bemused by the blatant "lion man" artwork in Aslan, especially after the text continues to tow the "they're really only vaguely leonine" line."
​

I really don't know how to interpret those two statements other than that the text indicates that Aslans are only vaguely leonine. (The artwork I've seen a preview of).

Bootneck and hdan may, of course, be mistaken or even lying through their teeth, but since you don't have any reason whatsoever to assume this to be the case, you should either take steps to find out or accept their word for it until someone provides evidence to the contrary.

Unless I purchase the book in question ( unlikely as I perceive that it is yet another rehash of materials I've already owned; not enough new in it to be worth the price to me ), I suppose I'll never really be sure if the pictures match the book's text or not..

If some people who has read the book says so and no one else (who has read the book) contradicts it, you can be sure beyond reasonable doubt. At the very least you should assume it for purposes of discussing their statements. You can put in a little disclaimer if you feel that's called for.

No problem there. Just understand that the changes you don't want are 'gratuitous' and the ones you do want, you'd like retconned, but other people may have totally different wants and definitions for 'gratuitous' than you.

No, I don't understand that at all and I think your assumption that that's what's going on is pretty damn insulting. By 'gratuitous' I mean 'for little or no reason'. Obviously any change that I consider gratuitous is also one that I disapprove of -- that's inherent in the term -- but the reverse is not true.

All of those making the allegations certainly felt strongly enough to speak up about it.

Of course. But that doesn't prove they're right about what's going on. Maybe they've just read about it in the same way you seem to have and uncritically accepted it as true with no need for any actual evidence. If you asked a Flat Earther for proof that the Earth is flat and he referred you to testimonies by his fellow Flat Earthers, would you accept that as solid proof?

So, I repeat my request for evidence.

Many have left here, won't return to contribute here again because of the hostility they alleged. How many left without saying a word? Consider a goodly number of them as eye-witnesses.

Not good enough. People's memories play tricks on them. They notice things that confirm their prejudices and overlook things that don't. They convince themselves that they've read things they haven't read. No need to attribute false testimony to malice; ordinary honest mistakes are more than enough to cause false memories.

Unless you have proof that they all lied.

You got that twisted around. You made an accusation. You're the one who should back it up.

As evidence, I present the fact that hostile words ( "shoot the artist" ) are tolerated here. I present the fact that numbers of individuals were willing to voice allegations of a hostile environment here. I present as evidence that numbers of them left due to a perceived hostile environment. I present as evidence the fact that there is a lingering perception elsewhere that this board is hostile to non-canon approved ideas. I have no intention of reading several years worth of posts, so go find your own evidence.

If you won't (or can't) back up your accusations, you shouldn't make them. Incidentally, even if all of this proved what you think it proves, it still doesn't have anything to do with your accusation that the tolerance and intolerance is selective.

I never used 'deep hostility'...you have.

Change that to 'hostility', if you insist.

Deplore it all you like. It is your opinion.

I never claimed otherwise. Indeed, it seems to me to be rather self-evident that it is my opinion.

What I deplore the tendency to stand by idly and allow that to happen.

I still think that when you see someone behaving childishly, you should treat him accordingly. Ignore him or have a quiet word with him, or even scold him, if you think that's going to accomplish anything constructive. But don't make a mountain out of a molehill.

So what would happen if I said it in a group of friends?

That's strictly between my friends and myself. I can't think of anyone from any on-line board that I've never met face-to-face that will ever find out. No offense meant, but its none of your business.

To be honest, considering how irrelevant my relationships among my friends are to the discussion, why would you even ask such a personal question?

I always assume that any new Traveller fan I meet is what Anne Shirley would call 'a kindred spirit' until I have evidence to the contrary. As such, I don't interpret every possible slight in the worst possible way; I try to give fellow Traveller fans the benefit of the doubt. The remark that is intolerably rude between strangers can be mere playful banter between friends.


Hans

 

[aramis]

Keep the tone civil, please.

If it continues the downward slide into "oh poor me, I can't handle MGT being criticized" and "MGT Suxxors", it will result in multiple infractions and a locked thread.

If you've got a gripe, fine. Air it. If not, don't denigrate others for having done so. And no more hyperbolic threats.

 

[atpollard]

So, does anyone know of a literary Sci-Fi race of anthropomorphic Samauri Lions?

If the problem is text reference to 'vaugely leonine', compared to everything else, then let's look for a 'big damn leonine' inspiration.

 

[FreeTrav]

So, does anyone know of a literary Sci-Fi race of anthropomorphic Samauri Lions?

If the problem is text reference to 'vaugely leonine', compared to everything else, then let's look for a 'big damn leonine' inspiration.

The closest I can recall encountering would be Cherryh's Hani, from the Chanursaga. I'd hardly apply 'samurai' to them, however, and while I won't for a moment argue 'felinoid', I'm not actually certain that 'leonine' can truly be applied to them.

 

[fusor]

Kzinti are the obvious one (not sure about the samurai part, but they've definitely portrayed as leonine. See the book cover at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kzin for example)

 

[hunter]

The Orions of the Starfire universe

 

[rancke]

The Tigery of Poul Anderson's Ensign Flandry.


Hans

 

[rancke]

So, does anyone know of a literary Sci-Fi race of anthropomorphic Samauri Lions?

If the problem is text reference to 'vaugely leonine', compared to everything else, then let's look for a 'big damn leonine' inspiration.

It seems to me that the original authors wouldn't need any inspiration other than the basic idea. I mean, it's not really rocket science to combine an animal type with a human culture, is it?

As far as the literary precursors go, I don't think any of them are any closer to the Aslans than they are to each other or to the basic "intelligent felines" concept. Whatever similarities there are (and I'm not denying that there are some) are more or less inherent in the basic concept. It's really not necessary to turn to the Hani or the Kzinti or the Orions or the Tigery or the Lion Men of Mongo to explain where any part of the Aslans came from.


Hans

 

[atpollard]

Actually, my thinking was more along the lines of Traveller is a rule system for adventuring in worlds that I read about (like when I first played Classic Traveller).

Perhaps the MgT Aslan book could serve as a source for someone who enjoyed one of the literary races.

I am a poor Traveller Canonista ... revolk my Grognard certification.

 

[fusor]

I think it works perfectly well as a source for someone who enjoys the Aslan. The fact that a handful of people (or even just one person) on the internet throw a hissy fit about the artwork makes no difference to me or my enjoyment of the book.

 

[rancke]

I think it works perfectly well as a source for someone who enjoys the Aslan.

"Works perfectly well" is not the same thing as "couldn't be better".

The fact that a handful of people (or even just one person) on the internet throw a hissy fit about the artwork makes no difference to me or my enjoyment of the book.

Now there's a term that's calculated to keep the discussion calm and polite and civilized...


Hans

 

[fusor]

"Works perfectly well" is not the same thing as "couldn't be better".

I didn't say or suggest that it was. Tell you what though, if you think you can do better, go write a book for Mongoose yourself and show them how it's done. I'm sure you're quite capable of it, and you obviously feel strongly enough about the quality of their material that you should have no problem in "improving" what they publish.

Now there's a term that's calculated to keep the discussion calm and polite and civilized...

Perhaps you should read over what you write sometime.

 

[rancke]

I didn't say or suggest that it was.

You implied it when your response to criticism of the book was that it "works perfectly well".

Tell you what though, if you think you can do better, go write a book for Mongoose yourself and show them how it's done.

Unless you seriously mean to imply that no one is allowed to criticise anything unless one is capable of doing better oneself, that remark is completely besides the point.

I'm sure you're quite capable of it...

I like to think so, yes. Not that it has anything to do with the case.

...and you obviously feel strongly enough about the quality of their material that you should have no problem in "improving" what they publish.

Well, I felt strongly enough about Aslans to offer to playtest Vargr and I'm told that I did get a playtest credit, so I must have been of some help.


Hans

 

[aramis]

Actually, Fusor, Hans has written for SJG. While SJG's art is often meh, it's usually pretty consistent, and the writing is excellent.

 

[fusor]

Then he shouldn't have any problem in presenting a "better" manuscript on a subject of his choice to Mongoose, should he?

I'm quite serious. Since he evidently feels strongly enough to argue for many pages that Mongoose cannot be trusted to stick to canon without making "gratuitous changes", and given that he already has experience writing RPG products, he should have no trouble in presenting them with a manuscript about a subject that does not deviate in the slightest from canon, that he and anyone else who cares enough would be satisfied with.

And since he's already playtested one MGT book he already has a foothold from which to propose a manuscript for their next Alien book. Or at the very least he can contribute a lot of canonically accurate material to the next book's playtest and insist that they use it. And if they don't then I guess he can share some responsibility for not being convincing enough during the playtest to convince them to include that material.

I think that would be vastly superior to unconstructively ranting about something that's been published after the fact here. If Mongoose feels that they need to change the book then I'm sure they will, but I doubt that they'll do it based on one person's (or an handful of people's) demands.

 

[fusor]

You implied it when your response to criticism of the book was that it "works perfectly well".

I didn't at all. But since you refuse to allow other people to hold different opinions while arguing that you should be "allowed to care", I guess you feel it's OK for you to hold double standards but not others.

I think I've wasted enough time arguing with you. You carry on believing what you want to believe - like I said, I really don't care what you think.

 

[MongooseFordy]

Well, I felt strongly enough about Aslans to offer to playtest Vargr and I'm told that I did get a playtest credit, so I must have been of some help.

I seem to remember you did. Which means you'll be eligible for a playtest copy. Get in touch and they'll send you one.

 

[hdan]

Bootneck and hdan may, of course, be mistaken or even lying through their teeth, but since you don't have any reason whatsoever to assume this to be the case, you should either take steps to find out or accept their word for it until someone provides evidence to the contrary.

As evidence that I'm not lying (j/k btw - I know you weren't accusing me of such), here is the text, freely available in the Aslan book preview on page 36 (3 of the preview), and ironically placed right below the picture of a man and Kzin, I mean Aslan, with some emphasis added by me:

Early Terran explorers regarded the Aslan as ‘lion-like,’ and the simile
has stuck ever since, although the Aslan bear little resemblance to
Terrestrial lions. Nonetheless, this early misnomer has influenced a
great deal of human thinking about the Aslan, including terminology
(the use of pride to translate ahriy, for instance) and ascribed
behaviour – which is not at all leonine.

It might be worth noting that the Aslan book is one of my favorite MgT books, content-wise. In previous editions, I've never been much interested in Aslani, but the MgT Aslan book got me excited about the possibility of playing an Aslan campaign, or doing an expedition into Aslan territories.

And can we please drop this whole "death threat" foolishness? If someone says "Sod it", do you really think they mean to do what that abbreviation implies? "Shoot the X" is an idiomatic expression, and is no more a death threat than saying "to hell with that" is a sincere desire to see someone burn for all eternity.

 

[Jame]

I seem to remember you did. Which means you'll be eligible for a playtest copy. Get in touch and they'll send you one.

How does one sign up to playtest MGP books?

 

[MongooseFordy]

How does one sign up to playtest MGP books?

Don't know now. I haven't worked there for well over a year.