mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
It is written up as a LBB:2 ship so is fair game. It does, however, include that most forbidden of technologies (which we will ignore).
The Compleat LBB2 Ship Design
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AnotherDilbert
SOC-14 1K
I don't understand where you draw the line?
What's the difference between a LBB2 write-up and a LBB5 write-up?
What's the difference between a LBB2 write-up and a LBB5 write-up?
AnotherDilbert
SOC-14 1K
External cargo pods?
Externally carried craft?
No, OK, I understood what you mean. But Free Traders really need the forbidden tech to operate away from A and B ports, where it belongs.
A4 is a goody box of rule-expansions!
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
Yup, A1, A4, A7, A10, A13, S7, DA1, JTAS 4, Beltstrike and The Traveller Adventure are what I have trawled through so far.
AnotherDilbert
SOC-14 1K
So, all CT adventures, supplements, and magazines, except LBB5, TCS, and S9?
Including basically all published LBB5 designs?
AHL?
Including basically all published LBB5 designs?
AHL?
AnotherDilbert
SOC-14 1K
Fusion guns from the Rampart (Challenge 27, p11)?
m/9fib computers from Challenge 25, p7? Missile bays?
Vlezhdatl 2000 Dt cruisers with particle bays and meson screens? (A6, p39)?
Deep meson guns, LBB5 armour on LBB2 ships? (A7, p7, p30)
m/9fib computers from Challenge 25, p7? Missile bays?
Vlezhdatl 2000 Dt cruisers with particle bays and meson screens? (A6, p39)?
Deep meson guns, LBB5 armour on LBB2 ships? (A7, p7, p30)
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Spinward Flow
SOC-14 5K
Personally, I would be perfectly happy with discarding the civilian/naval/scout drive designation of LBB2 entirely and just move into a TU where the only question is ... Fuel Purification Plant? (Y/N) ...
And to be fair, the FPPs detailed in LBB5.80 are generously underpriced.
1000 tons of unrefined fuel sells at starport prices for MCr0.1.
1000 tons of refined fuel sells at starport prices for MCr0.5.
So the fuel refining "arbitrage price" is MCr0.4 per 1000 tons.
Personally, I would set the component cost of a Fuel Purification Plant at MCr0.3 per 1000 tons of fuel capacity (minimum 200 tons capacity) regardless of tech level and then just vary the tonnage required by tech level as detailed in LBB5.80 p36 ... instead of varying the tonnage AND the price.
And to be fair, the FPPs detailed in LBB5.80 are generously underpriced.
1000 tons of unrefined fuel sells at starport prices for MCr0.1.
1000 tons of refined fuel sells at starport prices for MCr0.5.
So the fuel refining "arbitrage price" is MCr0.4 per 1000 tons.
Personally, I would set the component cost of a Fuel Purification Plant at MCr0.3 per 1000 tons of fuel capacity (minimum 200 tons capacity) regardless of tech level and then just vary the tonnage required by tech level as detailed in LBB5.80 p36 ... instead of varying the tonnage AND the price.
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
I would argue that since this is LBB:2 based -
1 - civilian drives get a penalty using unrefined fuel
2 - paramilitary/military ships have rugged drives but there should be a cost rather than just referee feat
3 - fuel refineries can be ship mounted, but they are too large to be included in 100-400t ships, the Leviathan is 1800 to 2600 tons depending on bolt on options.
1 - civilian drives get a penalty using unrefined fuel
2 - paramilitary/military ships have rugged drives but there should be a cost rather than just referee feat
3 - fuel refineries can be ship mounted, but they are too large to be included in 100-400t ships, the Leviathan is 1800 to 2600 tons depending on bolt on options.
Spinward Flow
SOC-14 5K
Define "too large" ... because it is going to be important.
One of the things that makes FPP a "no brainer" even for ACS is the fact that you can shrink one down to 1/5th of 1000 tons refining capacity. Sure, that 200 tons of fuel refining capacity might be more than you really need for ships 400 tons and under ... but there's no "penalty" associated with having excess fuel refining capacity (aside from wasted tonnage and purchase cost). Even at TL=10, that means the minimum size of an FPP is only 8 tons of plant for 200 tons of fuel capacity (which also fails to differentiate between jump fuel and power plant fuel, because fuel is fuel, right?)
Are you trying to argue ... with a straight face ... that 8 tons (the displacement of 2 staterooms!) is "too large" to fit into ships that displace 100-400 tons of hull?
LBB2 was ... incomplete.
It still is incomplete.
LBB2 starship design represents the "basic set" of building blocks to work with ... the "starter" if you will.
It is not the "be all, end all" totality of everything that is or ever will be.
LBB2 is an open ended and incomplete system ... rather than a closed and completed one.
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
Since HG 79 was (probably) used to construct the Kinunir and Gazelle let's take a look at the purification plant in that book, here it is converted to a table (note no percentage-based option):
It can convert 1 ton of gas in 1 minute, or if using water takes it 1 ton of water 10 minutes to process (I would imagine ammonia or methane would take the same time as water).
It can convert 1 ton of gas in 1 minute, or if using water takes it 1 ton of water 10 minutes to process (I would imagine ammonia or methane would take the same time as water).
| Tech Level | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | 13 | 14 | 15 |
| tonnage | 50 | 45 | 40 | 35 | 30 | 25 | 20 | 15 |
| cost/kCr | 200 | 190 | 180 | 170 | 160 | 150 | 140 | 130 |
AnotherDilbert
SOC-14 1K
So basically a conspiracy to keep Free Traders impractical?
Big traders get nearly free fuel, Free Traders have to operate in the boondocks where refined fuel is not available and hence misjump every year or two...
Big traders get nearly free fuel, Free Traders have to operate in the boondocks where refined fuel is not available and hence misjump every year or two...
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
You could always buy a purification plant for every world you call at...
Spinward Flow
SOC-14 5K
Seriously ...?
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
Why not - you could then employ someone to sell the fuel to others and make a massive profit.
This is such a no-brainer I think refined fuel should be available at every world within the Imperium and should only cost a few tens of credits per ton more than unrefined fuel. Unless it is part of the Imperial protection racket - only authorised supliers can own purification plants...
This is such a no-brainer I think refined fuel should be available at every world within the Imperium and should only cost a few tens of credits per ton more than unrefined fuel. Unless it is part of the Imperial protection racket - only authorised supliers can own purification plants...
Condottiere
SOC-14 5K
Direct production costs are minuscule.
Overhead and taxes, might not be.
Might be considered non renewable resource.
Overhead and taxes, might not be.
Might be considered non renewable resource.
AnotherDilbert
SOC-14 1K
If we are rebuilding the economic system, we could introduce per parsec pricing for cargo and pax while we are at it...
In a meta-game sense, yes -- the rules are the rules, and that was an almost explicitly intended outcome, especially in first edition.
[EDIT: More precisely, the refined/unrefined fuel mechanic (along with Jump Cassettes and the Generate Program) was intended to keep Free Traders on established trade routes rather than striking out into the wilderness.]
How it works out in-universe is a separate question that was never addressed.
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Just to be clear (and you probably already know this), they're not only for Jump Fuel, but also for the power plant and maneuver drive. See "Drive Failure", LBB2'81, p. 6. That said, I'm not sure what the in-universe mechanism by which bad fuel damages a grav drive would be. The result would have made a lot more sense for the '77 rules' (implied) fusion-rocket maneuver drives.
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