The Computers/Cyberpunk 'Problem' in Traveller.

[mike wightman]

Actually, HG2 doesn't specify the nature of the MD. It could be a Fusion Torch or a High-performance ion thruster. Or it could be the later defined (with MT) Gravitic thruster.

HG1 makes it explicit that the manoeuvre drive is a fusion rocket - HG2 introduces the magic manoeuvre drive that only requires energy from the power plant.

 

[mike wightman]

There is an old belter expression, "Oxygen don't grow on trees." What it means is that most asteroid stations don't have large trees that make tons of air all by themselves. Air has to be manufactured, created, the scrubbers and burners need to be taken care of, monitored, maintained, repaired. Air must be "earned" one could say.

Which costs how much with cheap fusion power and advanced 3d printing?

People like to feel productive, to "earn their air". Technology allows one to accomplish more and more with less and less, but doesn't change the need to earn one's success. Being given what one needs to live, can often be more problematic than the struggle to earn.

This I agree with completely, problem is the number of people actually needed to do manufacturing or resource exploitation or agricultural jobs in a TL9+society are going to be minimal.

I don't see this as hurting that much. Granted the big guys can use robotic factories, but then nobody earns the money to buy the product. Higher tech can make labor cheaper, because it makes the necessities of life less expensive.

And this is where the problem lies. If people do not earn wealth they can not afford to buy stuff to maintain the economy, unless that wealth is given to them.

At some point someone is going to realise that it is just a paper (electronic credit) exercise shuffling imaginary numbers... So the bosses (megafactory owning family - the new nobility) will have to keep the masses happy by inventing jobs and sharing wealth.

I imagine a lot of people will earn their living the same way folks have been doing it for millenia, producing and distributing goods and services other people want. You could probably support more artists, academics, and unfortunately, politicians.

Again I agree, you will end up making money by entertaining, servicing the people with wealth. It will be dressed up and disguised in some cultures as meaningful work, in others it will be obvious exploitation.

Lots of potential opening up here to describe societies of the future.

Still haven't got past TL10 though

 

[aramis]

HG1 makes it explicit that the manoeuvre drive is a fusion rocket - HG2 introduces the magic manoeuvre drive that only requires energy from the power plant.

Better double check- HG2 says it requires a power plant of same or greater rating, but doesn't require that it use the EP - in fact, EP grants agility, not acceleration... which it conveniently also doesn't adequately define.

Further, the actual rules for the drives are the same, except for HG1 allowing you to burn ships with the MDrive.

On any given ship, the power plant number must at least equal the higher of the jump drive number or the maneuver drive number.

Fuel: A ship requires fuel for its jump drives and for its power plant; the power plant converts fuel to energy for housekeeping functions and for the maneuver drives. Fuel tankage must be sufficient to contain a full load for the power plant and the jump drive. Additional fuel tankage may be optionally installed. There is no cost for interior fuel tankage.
Jump fuel is computed at 10% of the ship tonnage per jump number; thus a 10,000 ton jump-6 ship requires fuel tankage for 6000 tons. Fuel usage is computed similarly; 10% of the ship tonnage in fuel is used per jump num-ber used (for the ship mentioned above, performing jump-1 uses 1000 tons of fuel, while jump-6 uses 6000 tons of fuel).

Power plant fuel is computed at 1% of the ship tonnage per power plant number; a 10,000 ton ship with power plant-6 requires 600 tons of fuel tankage for its power plant. Note that power plant fuel also provides energy for the maneuver drives. The stated fuel requirement is sufficient for four weeks of cruising (including while in jump space) before refuelling for the power plant is necessary.

Drives are noted in the Universal Ship Profile by the drive number (from 1 to 6); use 0 if no such drive is present. On any given ship, the power plant number must at least equal the jump number or the maneuver number, whichever is higher. Unlike maneuver or jump drives, power plants can achieve numbers higher than six. Theoretically, a power plant number may reach as high as 50; practically, it should rarely go higher than 35.

Fuel: A ship requires fuel for its jump drives and for its power plant; the power plant converts fuel to energy for computers, jump drives, maneuver drives, weapons, and screens. Fuel tankage must be sufficient to contain a full load for the power plant and the jump drive. Additional tankage may be installed as an option. There is no cost for interior fuel tankage.

Jump fuel requirements are computed at 10% of the ship tonnage per jump number; thus, the Akron is a 10,000 ton jump 6 ship and requires fuel tankage of 6,000. Fuel usage is computed similarly; 10% of the ship tonnage in fuel is used per jump number used (for the Akron, performing jump-1 uses 1,000 tons of fuel, while performing jump6 uses 6,000 tons of fuel).

Power plant fuel is computed at 1% of the ship tonnage per power plant number; the Akron has power plant4 and requires 600 tons of fuel tankage. One ton of fuel supports one energy point 'of power plant output. Note that power plant fuel also provides energy for the maneuver drives. The stated fuel tonnage supports four weeks cruising (including time spent in jump space) before refuelling is necessary.

Emphasis original for both. Neither version requires fuel for the MD. highlight added for comparison clarity.

HG1 has magic drives, too - they just happen to be magic drives that can be used as fusion guns.

 

[mike wightman]

Yup, always found it a bit odd that HG1 doesn't make much of m-drive fuel

HG 2 page 17

Power for the maneuver drives is provided by the starship's power plant, which must have a rating equal to or exceeding the drive number of the maneuver drive.

 

[rancke]

And this is where the problem lies. If people do not earn wealth they can not afford to buy stuff to maintain the economy, unless that wealth is given to them.

At some point someone is going to realise that it is just a paper (electronic credit) exercise shuffling imaginary numbers... So the bosses (megafactory owning family - the new nobility) will have to keep the masses happy by inventing jobs and sharing wealth.

Heinlein addresses this in Beyond this Horizon. Each quarter the ministry of economic stuff (I forget what it's called) calculates how much the economy has expanded and distributes the increase as a dividend to the citizens.


Hans

 

[Amber Chancer]

Yup, always found it a bit odd that HG1 doesn't make much of m-drive fuel

HG 2 page 17

It comes from LBB2, though, doesn't it.

I think that bit was thought up by somebody who was familiar with "wet" navy diesel turbines, but rather less so with the realities of space flight.

So the M drive is just a big electric motor. What's the problem? You gotta generate the electricity to power it somehow :file_21:

 

[Quint]

I suggest that one way to approach the issue is to think about that "social status" characteristic (yeah, I know that the distribution is all wrong ... but it's the best we've got) and to assume that whatever the tech level of the world, a person must actually be of a social status AT LEAST EQUAL to the tech level to have access to the kit at that tech level. Otherwise, they're existing at a lower (possibly MUCH lower) tech level ... possible aware that much whizzier kit exists, but simply unable (for whatever reason) to access it.

(And yeah ... I know ... social standing and wealth are NOT synonymous concepts ... but it still gives some sort of a taste of what the technology gulf is likely to look and feel like)

That's actually a really great idea - it also gives an interesting way to limit create a guideline for what folks have relatively easy access to "pre-game" or "outside of play". I think that it's probably worthwhile to think about how long it takes things to be ubiquitous. So yes, X is available at TL12, but most people operate at... TL10? Perhaps the standard Imperial Tech Level is TL7-10 or so because that is the cheapest and easiest things to produce and maintain - no matter that you can get TL12 items on most average Imperial planets (IIRC that's the average Imperial TL). Once you start to hit TL14-15 things start to look TL12 on average just due to trickle-down effect.

What would be interesting is if we could also map Social Standing to proximity to the Imperial Core. In many ways this makes some sense even if it utterly non-canon.

D.

 

[SpaceBadger]

I suggest that one way to approach the issue is to think about that "social status" characteristic (yeah, I know that the distribution is all wrong ... but it's the best we've got) and to assume that whatever the tech level of the world, a person must actually be of a social status AT LEAST EQUAL to the tech level to have access to the kit at that tech level.

I agree with you that Soc could be a useful (although problematic, in all the ways you noted) indicator of what tech someone has access to. I think we are on the same page there.

My only quibble would be in referencing the Soc to TL as to how much tech the person has. I'd think it more "realistic" (or at least "verisimilitudinous" if that is a word) to make some rough breaks in Soc level - the lowest don't even have access to the best tech their own world can produce, the next and largest group have access to local tech, the next have access to some widely-available tech from nearby worlds that often gets traded here, and the very highest have access to the best offworld tech that any trading ship is ever likely to bring to this particular place. You can do more fine-tuning if you wish, but that is the general concept that I would see as most reasonable.

 

[Browk]

JTAS #22 had an article that falls right in atpollard's "IMO, TL 13-15 is where your neural jacks and virtual reality cyberpunk belongs.".

That article introduced, at TL14, implanted neural interfaces allowing direct brain-CPU linking.


As for the prejudice against "cybernetic enhancement"... the emphasis is on the "enhancement" part.

To me…

That is a really well thought-out contextualisation and a wonderfully concise explanation, one I intend to use when I jump-start my old Traveller campaign again. Good stuff BlackBat242!

 

[BlackBat242]

Thanks - that has been percolating for nearly 30 years (I started playing Traveller in 1983, and the question of "why are there no "6 million credit men"* in the Imperium" came up not long after), but this is the first time I've formally put it all down in print.


* "Steve Austin, a man barely alive"... :CoW:

 

[Ref00000]

predjudice against Cyber/Bio enhancement...

seems to be Cultural...
then again, that's still not "illegal".
it just means you'll be socially limited to being an outcast, criminal or fringer.
which works pretty ok, IMO.

incedentally In MTU, I tend to use a vastly different 'Sword Worlder' origin saga and culture than OTU canon, and they use cyber/bio enhancments quite freely.
this gives a nice solid 'in game' reason why 'Imperials don't like cybertech implants'

 

[Golan2072]

I'd say that under Imperial law, a 'proper' cyborg (not just someone with some bionics, but someone mostly rebuilt mechanically) is a thing, not a person. Normal cybernetic implants which aren't corrective prosthetics reduce the subject's SOC but keep you a legal person as long as your SOC is 2+; doing a full cyborg conversion makes you into property of whoever pays for it (if you pay for its from your own funds, you are owned by your next of kin, and if no next of kin is available, by the Emperor).

The Solomani, on the other hand, actually RISE in Party Standing from going through cyborg conversion, as long as it is done by Solomani doctors at a Solomani hospital, as this shows the superior Solomani science compared to the conservative Imperium. SolSec, however, is likely to implant various control chips, kill-switches and so on in a cyborg, especially if the work is funded by the Party.

 

[Magnus von Thornwood]

*shudders in fear*

I'd say that under Imperial law, a 'proper' cyborg (not just someone with some bionics, but someone mostly rebuilt mechanically) is a thing, not a person. Normal cybernetic implants which aren't corrective prosthetics reduce the subject's SOC but keep you a legal person as long as your SOC is 2+; doing a full cyborg conversion makes you into property of whoever pays for it (if you pay for its from your own funds, you are owned by your next of kin, and if no next of kin is available, by the Emperor).

The Solomani, on the other hand, actually RISE in Party Standing from going through cyborg conversion, as long as it is done by Solomani doctors at a Solomani hospital, as this shows the superior Solomani science compared to the conservative Imperium. SolSec, however, is likely to implant various control chips, kill-switches and so on in a cyborg, especially if the work is funded by the Party.

Speaking as a twentyth century cyborg (I have plastic parts) I find the Imperial law regarding cyborgs as you laid out terrifying. Why do people keep acting like a body is a person as opposed to the mind which is where personality resides/is created? I can see no reason other than fear and mostly stupidity (in the universe, not you in particular, lest there be confusion) to justify the laws as you have stated them. And why don't you get to own you if you paid to be a conversion? You paid for it, under standard capitalism you buy it, it is yours. Unless you gift it away, in which case it now belongs to the person you gave it to. How do they justify keeping a person as a slave when slavery (in the OTU anyway) is a violation of the few Imperial High Laws?

Funny at first I was thinking my kin (Solomani) were not as nutzo as my beloved Imperium, but then we got kill switches and I realized they too are insanely terrified on cyborgs too.

I wonder if our cousins across the Spinward border are also a bunch of crazed tech haters? Considering their use of robots, they might be the one polity that I might feel safe in. But then, I never had that silly psionic fear either. Or at least where the Zho are concerned, they have codes about dipping and other matters. Sad that the older I get the more I am not sure I wouldn't be happier in the Consulate, they really do seem to be the most rational society in Traveller (of the humans, Hivers seem pretty squared away too).

Why is everyone so damned freaked out in high tech societies by cyborgs? You think they would be a dime a dozen.

Man, the future sucks for the cybernetic people, which is so very sad.

Well, I need to get back to work, mornings are busy.

 

[rancke]

One thing to keep in mind is that Imperial laws (i.e. laws in the Imperium¹) are not necessarily Imperial laws (promulgated by the Imperium). I think that Imperial laws² tend to be as minimalist as they can be and still cover 300 subsectors. There are a few basic laws that covers everybody. Some of them deals with rights accorded by the Imperium to sapient lifeforms. Cleon I specifically excluded robots on the grounds that while some of them might arguably be sapient³, they are provably not lifeforms.

¹ Which I will henceforth refer to as planetary laws to avoid confusion.

² Promulgated by the Imperium.

¹ Turns out they weren't back in his day (TL12).​

I don't see any reason why the Imperium should consider human brains to not be lifeforms. It could, of course, but we have no evidence (either way) that it does.

Individual member worlds, OTOH, could (and I'm sure some would) define cyborgs as non-persons. This allows a much greater freedom in developing individual worlds. We are barred from having Imperial member worlds governed by psionic elites because canon tell us that the Imperium itself bans psionics. I see no reason to bar ourselves from having Imperial worlds with rampant cyborgism as well as Imperial worlds with cyborg slavery.

YMMV.


Hans

 

[Magnus von Thornwood]

Sad, so very sad.

One thing to keep in mind is that Imperial laws (i.e. laws in the Imperium¹) are not necessarily Imperial laws (promulgated by the Imperium). I think that Imperial laws² tend to be as minimalist as they can be and still cover 300 subsectors. There are a few basic laws that covers everybody. Some of them deals with rights accorded by the Imperium to sapient lifeforms. Cleon I specifically excluded robots on the grounds that while some of them might arguably be sapient³, they are provably not lifeforms.

¹ Which I will henceforth refer to as planetary laws to avoid confusion.

² Promulgated by the Imperium.

¹ Turns out they weren't back in his day (TL12).​

I don't see any reason why the Imperium should consider human brains to not be lifeforms. It could, of course, but we have no evidence (either way) that it does.

Individual member worlds, OTOH, could (and I'm sure some would) define cyborgs as non-persons. This allows a much greater freedom in developing individual worlds. We are barred from having Imperial member worlds governed by psionic elites because canon tell us that the Imperium itself bans psionics. I see no reason to bar ourselves from having Imperial worlds with rampant cyborgism as well as Imperial worlds with cyborg slavery.

YMMV.


Hans

I swear, I will never get human beings' fear that life might reside in matter that is non-organic. To me it matters more if it is intelligent and self aware, not what form that intelligence and awareness comes in. Humans, Gak, silly, fearful things they are.

EDIT: What I don't get is where the fear comes from. This cyberphobia that Imperial humans exhibit makes no sense to me. I truly just don't understand it, unless it again comes down to that foolish notion that humans are somehow special and feel threatened by the superiority of the cyber-people. Which sadly, I suspect is the real reason, fear of being replaced and out evolved.

 

[Golan2072]

Speaking as a twentyth century cyborg (I have plastic parts) I find the Imperial law regarding cyborgs as you laid out terrifying. Why do people keep acting like a body is a person as opposed to the mind which is where personality resides/is created? I can see no reason other than fear and mostly stupidity (in the universe, not you in particular, lest there be confusion) to justify the laws as you have stated them. And why don't you get to own you if you paid to be a conversion? You paid for it, under standard capitalism you buy it, it is yours. Unless you gift it away, in which case it now belongs to the person you gave it to. How do they justify keeping a person as a slave when slavery (in the OTU anyway) is a violation of the few Imperial High Laws?

Funny at first I was thinking my kin (Solomani) were not as nutzo as my beloved Imperium, but then we got kill switches and I realized they too are insanely terrified on cyborgs too.

I wonder if our cousins across the Spinward border are also a bunch of crazed tech haters? Considering their use of robots, they might be the one polity that I might feel safe in. But then, I never had that silly psionic fear either. Or at least where the Zho are concerned, they have codes about dipping and other matters. Sad that the older I get the more I am not sure I wouldn't be happier in the Consulate, they really do seem to be the most rational society in Traveller (of the humans, Hivers seem pretty squared away too).

Why is everyone so damned freaked out in high tech societies by cyborgs? You think they would be a dime a dozen.

Man, the future sucks for the cybernetic people, which is so very sad.

Well, I need to get back to work, mornings are busy.

Just to clarify, I wasn't speaking of people with some implants (such as you), especially corrective prosthetics (such as you have) but rather of Robocop-level (or 6-million-dollar-man-level) work on people, which is FAR more extreme. I defined a "cyborg" as a being which is more Machine than Man, by a large margin.

 

[JimMarn]

Speaking as a twentyth century cyborg (I have plastic parts) I find the Imperial law regarding cyborgs as you laid out terrifying. Why do people keep acting like a body is a person as opposed to the mind which is where personality resides/is created? I can see no reason other than fear and mostly stupidity (in the universe, not you in particular, lest there be confusion) to justify the laws as you have stated them. And why don't you get to own you if you paid to be a conversion? You paid for it, under standard capitalism you buy it, it is yours. Unless you gift it away, in which case it now belongs to the person you gave it to. How do they justify keeping a person as a slave when slavery (in the OTU anyway) is a violation of the few Imperial High Laws?

Funny at first I was thinking my kin (Solomani) were not as nutzo as my beloved Imperium, but then we got kill switches and I realized they too are insanely terrified on cyborgs too.

I wonder if our cousins across the Spinward border are also a bunch of crazed tech haters? Considering their use of robots, they might be the one polity that I might feel safe in. But then, I never had that silly psionic fear either. Or at least where the Zho are concerned, they have codes about dipping and other matters. Sad that the older I get the more I am not sure I wouldn't be happier in the Consulate, they really do seem to be the most rational society in Traveller (of the humans, Hivers seem pretty squared away too).

Why is everyone so damned freaked out in high tech societies by cyborgs? You think they would be a dime a dozen.

Man, the future sucks for the cybernetic people, which is so very sad.

Well, I need to get back to work, mornings are busy.

I think it goes back to some Dark Ages nonsense about possession...

I remember, as a child, seeing people show revulsion for prosthetic arms and legs of someone who had been injured in WW2, an industrial accident, or a major traffic accident.

There was a veteran of WW2 who lost both his arms due to an artillery attack. He was given prosthetic arms, and even made a movie about his injuries and his recovery to help other veterans. I found out years later people didn't want to be around him.

I don't under stand it either.

 

[Magnus von Thornwood]

I get that.

Just to clarify, I wasn't speaking of people with some implants (such as you), especially corrective prosthetics (such as you have) but rather of Robocop-level (or 6-million-dollar-man-level) work on people, which is FAR more extreme. I defined a "cyborg" as a being which is more Machine than Man, by a large margin.

I get that you made a distinction, I do not see how the amount of plastic or other non-organic parts should make a bit of difference.

Thankfully, I have a rational TU where robots, cyborgs and even humans are only to be feared when they actually do bad things and not just for not being an organic.

 

[Hal]

Mike: Gravitics IS TL 9 in MT, TNE, T4.

If you wanted to really throw a curveball at players - T4 retcons Anagathic technology to TL 11.

Oddly enough, T5 puts it right back to TL 15

 

[Kaeto]

I get that you made a distinction, I do not see how the amount of plastic or other non-organic parts should make a bit of difference.

Thankfully, I have a rational TU where robots, cyborgs and even humans are only to be feared when they actually do bad things and not just for not being an organic.

A good chunk of the fear comes from the "Frankenstein Complex"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frankenstein_complex