The Computers/Cyberpunk 'Problem' in Traveller.

[Carlobrand]

I've been playing around with a story idea in which a wealthy elderly man accepts a neurological treatment using self-replicating nanobots that will continually repair or replace the individual cells in his brain as they fail over the years. Then, after surviving decades longer than expected with the help of the nanobots, his heirs try to have him declared legally dead - over his vigorous and horrified objection - arguing that most of his brain cells have been replaced by nanobots and that he's therefore not legally alive anymore.

Sadly, I am much better at coming up with ideas than at executing them.

 

[JimMarn]

I've been playing around with a story idea in which a wealthy elderly man accepts a neurological treatment using self-replicating nanobots that will continually repair or replace the individual cells in his brain as they fail over the years. Then, after surviving decades longer than expected with the help of the nanobots, his heirs try to have him declared legally dead - over his vigorous and horrified objection - arguing that most of his brain cells have been replaced by nanobots and that he's therefore not legally alive anymore.

Sadly, I am much better at coming up with ideas than at executing them.

They could probably find a doctor, and a research group jealous of the nanobot group, who would agree with the heirs.

 

[rancke]

I've been playing around with a story idea in which a wealthy elderly man accepts a neurological treatment using self-replicating nanobots that will continually repair or replace the individual cells in his brain as they fail over the years. Then, after surviving decades longer than expected with the help of the nanobots, his heirs try to have him declared legally dead - over his vigorous and horrified objection - arguing that most of his brain cells have been replaced by nanobots and that he's therefore not legally alive anymore.

That might happen, and the Imperium might choose to look the other way, but it's a big step from there to the Emperor issuing an edict to the effect that someone with x% of their brain cells replaced by nanobots no longer being protected beings.

Couple of comments/questions that occur to me:

What tech level would nanobots replacing brain cells be?

A biological body with 100% of its brain replaced by nanobots would still be a life form and you might have a hard time proving that it wasn't sentient -- especially if it was, but even if it wasn't, depending on how well it was able to fake it.


Hans

 

[salochin999]

"push gravitics back"

neat idea

"social class controlling access to TL"

even neater

The latter point could tie into the question over cybernetics i.e. the nobility deny access to cybernetics (and anagathics) to everyone but themselves i.e. the local Duke is a 300 year old cyborg.

 

[Quint]

I don't think that would be sufficient. Or perhaps I should say that no such theory would be considered valid... ...I submit that in order to treat a cyborg as property without getting the Imperium all hot and bothered about the slavery issue, you would have to PROVE that they were not lifeforms (which is, of course, impossible to prove) because proving that they were not sentient would be a non-starter due to the history of it being a classic ploy of slave-owners through the history of the Imperium.

As for getting the Imperium itself to legislate about lifeforms not counting as lifeforms, I just don't believe it.

Hans

I'm just explaining how it could have happened, not trying to argue that it is part of the OTO...

I can think of one other piece in the mix in the early days of the Imperium. If we extend the blood quantum laws concept a bit there could easily have been concerns around the percentage of "borg" especially when talking the cognitive/mental enhancement. All it would take is the proof (or sufficient fear) that people could be "hacked" and somehow controlled either cognitively or physically and you have a whole extra level of fear. I think that physical control would call for a simply "outlawing" of such technology (perhaps until a method of preventing this occurred at higher tech levels..?) while cognitive and emotional control could simply evoke analogous slavery arguments - legally one isn't allowed to voluntarily enter such a state (e.g. slavery is illegal) and if imposed on someone else then one is guilty of enslavement.

Carrying that forward, in the cases where for some form of medical necessity (or other circumstance) requires or results in such cybernetic enhancement there could easily be some sort of guardianship required since the subject isn't considered fully capable (or potentially capable) of exercising free will/whatever...

I think the slavery argument is actually a bit of red herring in this discussion if we're talking about the OTO. I think the real issue in Imperial eyes in the exercise of consent, free will, independent action. etc. things which impact this are what they are most concerned about - not the specific nuances of one cultures definition of slavery vs. indentured servitude vs. bondsman vs. honor thrall vs. consensual kinky sex "slave" vs. vestal virgin....

I think you get my point. It's less "are they human" and more "has their free will be compromised and as such they are not accorded the same status as other sentients, much like children and the mentally ill are not"

And if their free will has been compromised, who acts in guardianship of them - ohhhh... he is a nice megacorporation that is willing to do so and even make them productive members of society! Certainly with the proper safeguards in place (ombudsmen, Imperial auditors, etc) nothing could wrong, right..?

The interesting point is when you start to hit TL16+ where with the development of neurological weaponry there is the implication that you could "hack" someone without them being partially borged up with the right sort of equipment (perhaps that's a higher tech level, but it will happen sooner of later). That opens the same kettle of worms that was essentially closed during the Psionic Suppressions and is at least part of the "obvious" problems with how the Zhodani run their society.

D.

 

[Quint]

...A biological body with 100% of its brain replaced by nanobots would still be a life form and you might have a hard time proving that it wasn't sentient -- especially if it was, but even if it wasn't, depending on how well it was able to fake it.


Hans

Or... it is merely an abomination. It's just a meatsuit for a computer, not a "life form" since if you took the computer away it would die. Get the right sort of body horror going in the Emperor and/or Moot and it's a technological parasite that will end all biological life by feeding on it in order to survive.

Cue Matrix, cue Transcendence, heck cue The Last of Us - it's like a nanobot ichneumon wasp... Begging the question of what is waiting to hatch from the bodies of the parasite-infested, "dead men walking"...

D.

 

[rancke]

I'm just explaining how it could have happened, not trying to argue that it is part of the OTO...

Oh, I see!

I was merely arguing that it wasn't part of the OTU, not explaining that it could not happen. :rofl:


Hans

 

[rancke]

I can think of one other piece in the mix in the early days of the Imperium. If we extend the blood quantum laws concept a bit there could easily have been concerns around the percentage of "borg" especially when talking the cognitive/mental enhancement. All it would take is the proof (or sufficient fear) that people could be "hacked" and somehow controlled either cognitively or physically and you have a whole extra level of fear. I think that physical control would call for a simply "outlawing" of such technology (perhaps until a method of preventing this occurred at higher tech levels..?) while cognitive and emotional control could simply evoke analogous slavery arguments - legally one isn't allowed to voluntarily enter such a state (e.g. slavery is illegal) and if imposed on someone else then one is guilty of enslavement.

One thing to consider here is what you would like to happen to yourself if you were hacked. Would you want yourself turned into a non-person or would you want the law to require that the most strenuous efforts be made to free you from such control?

Carrying that forward, in the cases where for some form of medical necessity (or other circumstance) requires or results in such cybernetic enhancement there could easily be some sort of guardianship required since the subject isn't considered fully capable (or potentially capable) of exercising free will/whatever...

Are legislators likely to be the recipients of such medical treatment?

I think the slavery argument is actually a bit of red herring in this discussion if we're talking about the OTO. I think the real issue in Imperial eyes in the exercise of consent, free will, independent action.

The issue in Imperial eyes, as far as slavery is concerned, is the reduction of sentient lifeforms to property. The form of slavery outlawed by the Warrant of Restoration is chattel slavery. There are canonical examples of various forms of involuntary servitude accepted by the Imperium, some of them approaching slavery-like conditions yet still tolerated by the Imperium on one pretext or another. Even so, I think that the Imperium will also have reacted to slavery-like conditions on occasion. In the end, I think anything less blatant than chattel slavery can be accepted or not according to the beliefs of the local duke and/or Imperial judge.

I think you get my point. It's less "are they human" and more "has their free will be compromised and as such they are not accorded the same status as other sentients, much like children and the mentally ill are not"

The Imperium have treated child-like mentalities as protected beings (Chirpers, for instance). I really think you have to do better than demonstrate that someone is not a fully functioning aldut human being to get the Imperium to declare him a non-person.

And if their free will has been compromised, who acts in guardianship of them - ohhhh... he is a nice megacorporation that is willing to do so and even make them productive members of society! Certainly with the proper safeguards in place (ombudsmen, Imperial auditors, etc) nothing could wrong, right..?

Note the difference between laws that actually empower abuse and laws that require circumventing to allow abuse.


Hans

 

[mike wightman]

That would be the chirpers kidnapped by the IN to be experimented on in an Imperial research station - oops, forgot about their rights and contravention of their free will.

Not to mention the psionic humanoids of an unknown race locked up there for experimental purposes too.

 

[rancke]

That would be the chirpers kidnapped by the IN to be experimented on in an Imperial research station - oops, forgot about their rights and contravention of their free will.

Not to mention the psionic humanoids of an unknown race locked up there for experimental purposes too.

Your point being? Government servants sometimes break the laws promulgated by said government. This is well known. It is also irrelevant to the current discussion.


Hans

 

[mike wightman]

Government sanctioned kidnap and imprisonment shows that the Imperium isn't averse to ignoring its own grand proclamations.

The kidnap of the Chirpers and the unknown psionic humanoids is done using IN assets, the unknown humanoids will have to have been transported over interstellar distances which breaks yet more rules.

If your own military and bureaucracy routinely breaks the law then those laws are not really more than a convenience to allow you to act when it suits.

There may be worlds where cyborgs are treated as property and the Imperium turns a blind eye because it suits the local mega-corporation/duke/fleet admiral or even sector duchess.

 

[rancke]

Government sanctioned kidnap and imprisonment shows that the Imperium isn't averse to ignoring its own grand proclamations.

Whoever said they were?

The kidnap of the Chirpers and the unknown psionic humanoids is done using IN assets, the unknown humanoids will have to have been transported over interstellar distances which breaks yet more rules.

If your own military and bureaucracy routinely breaks the law then those laws are not really more than a convenience to allow you to act when it suits.

You're making the unsupported assumption that such abuse is routine and widespread.

There may be worlds where cyborgs are treated as property and the Imperium turns a blind eye because it suits the local mega-corporation/duke/fleet admiral or even sector duchess.

There may indeed. I believe I alluded to such a possibility already. But I think such cases will be much rarer than other forms of lawbreaking, because such a state of affair would be public and I'm sure there would be Imperial do-gooder groups making an official stink about it. And, as I said, slavery is a hot-button topic in the Imperium. It would be like the majority party in one of the American states advocating secession or some other un-American offense.


Hans

 

[salochin999]

Given how potentially useful they were does it make more sense that the nobility would ban cybernetics or try and keep them for themselves?

If the latter then one way would be to make them illegal but have a secret protocol 666 that rescinds the ban for "servants of the Emperor".

Apart from anything else this creates a weapon of control over the nobility as if the Emperor ever takes away their title most nobles turn into a walking infraction.

 

[Carlobrand]

...Couple of comments/questions that occur to me:

What tech level would nanobots replacing brain cells be? ...

A good question. I'm not sure. The TU apparently has never heard of nanotech, or I can't find anything that speaks directly to it. Best guess is TL17, when "intelligent antibodies" (MT Referee's Companion) hints at something approaching that size and sophistication.

...A biological body with 100% of its brain replaced by nanobots would still be a life form and you might have a hard time proving that it wasn't sentient -- especially if it was, but even if it wasn't, depending on how well it was able to fake it. ...

Or... it is merely an abomination. It's just a meatsuit for a computer, not a "life form" since if you took the computer away it would die. ...

And therein the conflict. Do "I" remain me, or have I become a Frankensteinian horror, a soulless automaton perfectly emulating the behaviors of the subject? A roboticist would argue one way, a priest another. The Imperial experience with psionics suggests it's as likely to be swayed by the pitchforks-and-torches sentiment as by logic on these issues.

You want real horror? What if the Virus fleets got hold of that technology? Imagine your New Era players dealing with the cthonic horror of humans treated with such technology, as alive and self-aware as they ever were, with human drives and needs, human emotions, living memories of their childhoods and all - and one buried little program compelling them to unknowingly serve the needs of the Vampire ship. Is "He" or "She" still alive in there, their individuality intact despite the fact that it now resides in a cybernetic network that precisely duplicates the brain at a cellular level, human but a victim of the artificially inserted compulsion? Or, is it a horrific doppelgangr designed to perfectly emulate the organic person that it consumed and replaced cell by cell?

 

[rancke]

Or... it is merely an abomination. It's just a meatsuit for a computer, not a "life form" since if you took the computer away it would die.

So? If you take away a meat brain a lifeform dies too.

Get the right sort of body horror going in the Emperor and/or Moot and it's a technological parasite that will end all biological life by feeding on it in order to survive.

I wasn't talking about the sort of "proof" you get by playing on emotions. I was talking about actual rational proof.


Hans

 

[rancke]

A good question. I'm not sure. The TU apparently has never heard of nanotech, or I can't find anything that speaks directly to it. Best guess is TL17, when "intelligent antibodies" (MT Referee's Companion) hints at something approaching that size and sophistication.

Well, as long as we're not talking about my Imperium (the one in charge during the Classic Era), I don't much care.

And therein the conflict. Do "I" remain me, or have I become a Frankensteinian horror, a soulless automaton perfectly emulating the behaviors of the subject? A roboticist would argue one way, a priest another.

The roboticist would say that it's just a soul-less machine, just like any other sentient, and the priest would argue that if it was sentient, it had a soul?

The Imperial experience with psionics suggests it's as likely to be swayed by the pitchforks-and-torches sentiment as by logic on these issues.

Except that there is no mention in the history of the Imperium of the Cyborg Suppressions.


Hans

 

[Quint]

So? If you take away a meat brain a lifeform dies too. I wasn't talking about the sort of "proof" you get by playing on emotions. I was talking about actual rational proof.

Hans

True, but irrelevant.

LOL! I think that the existence of the Psionic Suppressions is all the proof we need that the Imperium is not immune to moral panics. Rationalism, in theory, is behind all law - but the theoretical proof that underlies the rationalism doesn't have to be accurate.

History is replete with examples of politicians having a much lower definition of "proof" than scientists.

D.

 

[rancke]

True, but irrelevant.

I find it quite relevant. It is the proposition I was propounding rather than the one you were attacking.

LOL! I think that the existence of the Psionic Suppressions is all the proof we need that the Imperium is not immune to moral panics.

It does not follow that the Imperium would succumb to a moral panic over cyborgs. The Imperium is pretty isolated from the man on the ground. It's more of a mystery why it got involved in the suppression of psionics, really. One can only assume that some rather big mistakes were made.

History is replete with examples of politicians having a much lower definition of "proof" than scientists.

True but irrelevant to my claim.


Hans

 

[Carlobrand]

...It does not follow that the Imperium would succumb to a moral panic over cyborgs ...

...yet. Come TL16-17, there's a' gonna be a reckonin'. However, I agree that I don't see the dynamics present for one at the current tech level, not at the Imperial level of society. Planetery level, sure, given the right combination of local religious and cultural prejudices, but not at the upper levels of a pan-stellar society that draws its members from a wide cross section of planetary cultures.

 

[Quint]

I find it quite relevant. It is the proposition I was propounding rather than the one you were attacking.

Point.

It does not follow that the Imperium would succumb to a moral panic over cyborgs. The Imperium is pretty isolated from the man on the ground. It's more of a mystery why it got involved in the suppression of psionics, really. One can only assume that some rather big mistakes were made.

And one that can could certainly happen again - and a "nanotech panic" is probably a more valid fear than psionics...

True but irrelevant to my claim.

LOL! I don't actually agree with that. My understanding is that you are arguing for a OTO that proceeded upon perfectly logical routes and my understanding of your reasoning is that because things didn't happen X way or because we know tech works Y way that the laws and concerns developed many years previous to any TL being achieved interact logically. I am more inclined to believe the opposite - that laws are formed by the needs and fears of the present (as well as a fair amount of "closing the barn door after the horses got out").

Interestingly, I dragged out my copy of TD #12 where it notes that Cleon notes the "sentient lifeform yadda yadda" but also that he explicitly excluded robots with "One may argue that an intelligent robot might be sentient but it is definitely not a lifeform."

So, I would suggest that while bionic replacement of the vast majority the body is fine the grey area (barely comprehendible at the time of Cleon I) it is exactly the sort of bionic replacement like the "brain replacement" that is likely to be illegal or cause people to lose "personhood" - your robot brain may be sentient, but "you" are not a lifeform anymore.

This is further supported by another note in the same article that says that TL16 memory implanted cloning is illegal because it is "tampering with the mind of sentient lifeform, similar in concept to psionics" (a "ruling" by Emperor Paulo III in 1070).

In fact, full body clones (available since TL10) are legal and Imperial citizens, androids (available at TL14, if only with lifespans of 10-15 years) are legal and also Imperial citizens if they are sentient. Imperial law seems to be pretty focused on biological sentience not electronic/cybernetic intelligence.

As another aside, that article notes that while 1% of the Imperial population has a at least one artificial body part the term cyborg is considered vulgar and slanderous in many Imperial noble protocols and using it in reference to anyone, especially within the nobility, may have serious consequences. That, to me at least, seems like ground ripe for a moral panic.

Again, if the nanotech (or the big honking set of microchips, or whatever) starts replacing your brain "how do we know it's really you and not the computer" (or that you been "hacked" somehow). Yes, the "eidetic memory chip" ala the Vorkosigan saga might be fine - but I really don't think it is far fetched, given the information we have, that at some point an Imperial citizen that has had some percentage of their brain replaced (and perhaps the amount is 100%, but I suspect that it is less than that) that they are not considered a sentient lifeform anymore - and thus not protected under Imperial law as an Imperial citizen.

D.