The Computers/Cyberpunk 'Problem' in Traveller.

[rancke]

And one that can could certainly happen again - and a "nanotech panic" is probably a more valid fear than psionics...

But it's not something that would have come up by the time of the Classic Era, much less any time earlier, since nanotech replacement of brain cells is not a known technology.

LOL! I don't actually agree with that. My understanding is that you are arguing for a OTO that proceeded upon perfectly logical routes and my understanding of your reasoning is that because things didn't happen X way or because we know tech works Y way that the laws and concerns developed many years previous to any TL being achieved interact logically.

Not at all. I'm arguing that it is perfectly plausible that the Imperium would not have promulgated any Imperium-level laws disenfranching cyborgs, and that there are solid reasons to suppose that such is the case. Note that I do not claim that there is proof that it is the case.

Interestingly, I dragged out my copy of TD #12 where it notes that Cleon notes the "sentient lifeform yadda yadda" but also that he explicitly excluded robots with "One may argue that an intelligent robot might be sentient but it is definitely not a lifeform."

I'm glad to hear that the remembered quote that I presented to support my arguments in a previous post was accurate.

So, I would suggest that while bionic replacement of the vast majority the body is fine the grey area (barely comprehendible at the time of Cleon I) it is exactly the sort of bionic replacement like the "brain replacement" that is likely to be illegal or cause people to lose "personhood" - your robot brain may be sentient, but "you" are not a lifeform anymore.

That's quite possible and I haven't said anything to the contrary. The whole brain replacement argument is a digression. All I said was that IF one was compelled to prove to a court of law that a brain whose biological cells had been completely replaced by nanobots was not sentient, one might find that difficult. Especially if it was, in fact, sentient, but even if it was not, you might have trouble proving it. (Unless you count "Well, it stands to reason, dunnit?" as proof, which I don't.)


Hans

 

[aramis]

It's canon that the Society for the Sovereignty of Man over Machine is widespread, and not new, having begun in the Solomani Autonomous Region, and by 1116, extending all the way to the coreward edge of the 3I. It's also canon that they have political influence.

 

[rancke]

It's more of a mystery why it got involved in the suppression of psionics, really. One can only assume that some rather big mistakes were made.

OK, I dropped the ball on this one.

It's well known how the Psionic Suppressions came about. They were the end result of a massive psychological experiment (and a failed experiment at that), the Advertising Campaign from Hell, as it were. It was the first and only large-scale psychohistory experiment in history.

So the Psionic Suppressions are not proof or even evidence that something similar could have happened naturally with respect to cyborg legislation, much less that it has.


Hans

 

[rancke]

It's canon that the Society for the Sovereignty of Man over Machine is widespread, and not new, having begun in the Solomani Autonomous Region, and by 1116, extending all the way to the coreward edge of the 3I. It's also canon that they have political influence.

So it is. But it's not canon that they had enough political influence to cause the Imperium to promulgate anti-cyborg legislation. Individual member worlds, yes (but I never denied that), the Imperium, no.


Hans

 

[aramis]

So it is. But it's not canon that they had enough political influence to cause the Imperium to promulgate anti-cyborg legislation. Individual member worlds, yes (but I never denied that), the Imperium, no.


Hans

They're certainly strong enough to prevent the 3I from disallowing anti-cybernetics legislation. (IIRC, DGP medicine articles.)

They're part of why budding/regrowth tech is used in place of cyber for traumatic service injuries. (ibid.)

 

[rancke]

They're certainly strong enough to prevent the 3I from disallowing anti-cybernetics legislation. (IIRC, DGP medicine articles.)

The Imperium isn't supposed to interfere with member worlds as long as they don't practice actual slavery. Preventing discrimination is not the Imperium's business. Previnting ownership of sentient lifeforms is.

I do surmise that some Imperial dukes and judges sometimes interfere against practices that are "tantamount to slavery" and in so doing really overstep their formal bounds, but that's sentient beings for you.


Hans

 

[aramis]

The Imperium isn't supposed to interfere with member worlds as long as they don't practice actual slavery. Preventing discrimination is not the Imperium's business. Previnting ownership of sentient lifeforms is.

I do surmise that some Imperial dukes and judges sometimes interfere against practices that are "tantamount to slavery" and in so doing really overstep their formal bounds, but that's sentient beings for you.


Hans

Declaring someone no longer a sentient is, fundamentally, tantamount to slavery. It at the least renders them chattels.

 

[rancke]

Declaring someone no longer a sentient is, fundamentally, tantamount to slavery. It at the least renders them chattels.

I agree. That's why I've been expressing the opinion that while the Imperium would tolerate member worlds discriminating against cyborgs to some degree, it would step in if a member world went so far as to declare them non-sentiont.


Hans

 

[aramis]

I agree. That's why I've been expressing the opinion that while the Imperium would tolerate member worlds discriminating against cyborgs to some degree, it would step in if a member world went so far as to declare them non-sentiont.


Hans

Except that we know that they don't step in, because Margaret's sector has worlds where they're chattels.

So, obviously, the SSMM is strong enough to prevent imperial intervention.

It's an Imperium-wide group, with support even in the Marches.

It's several centuries old, at least. And it ties nicely into a bunch of religions' conceits about the Soul.

Remember: A person is reasonably smart. People are dumb and panicky. A person may or may not be superstitious; people in general, however, are HIGHLY superstitious.

 

[rancke]

Except that we know that they don't step in, because Margaret's sector has worlds where they're chattels.

Before the Rebellion? Because if it's after the Rebellion, it proves nothing. If it's before, how long before? Is the sector duke of Delphi dragging his feet and not doing his job?


Hans

 

[aramis]

Before the Rebellion? Because if it's after the Rebellion, it proves nothing. If it's before, how long before? Is the sector duke of Delphi dragging his feet and not doing his job?


Hans

Not as such... however...

CT Book 8 mentions the Shudusham Accords, and gives schematics for articles 1-7 and amendment 37

Article 1: Gives a general explanation of the document, overall guidelines for robot construction, locations and occasions for robot use, and the rights of robot owners.
The robot's owner is responsible for all actions the robot may perform, whether direct or indirect. Reliability is thus identified as a key issue, as is motivation for a robot equipped with a weapon or used as a weapon.
Article 2: Describes detailed programming guidelines for general functions.
Article 3: Covers detailed manufacturing standards to insure reliability and provide for the safety of owners and the general public.
Article 4: Gives guidelines for when and where weapons are allowed or prohibited.
Article 5: Describes specific programming logic for weapon control and usage.
Most strongly worded of all the articles.
Article 6: Describes detailed manufacturing standards to insure weapon reliability, when weapon installation is allowed.
Article 7: Provides for a new agency whose sole responsibility is to enforce the articles of the Concords.
...
The 37th amendment is well-known; it states that no pseudobiological
robot may attempt to pass itself off as a living being.​

It notes that the accords have no power of law in the 3I, but that it's the basis for many worlds laws within the 3I. In other words, it's like the UK laws of the 1700's in the US - the courts can use it to justify limitations on US citizens, but can't enforce the laws of that era directly.

 

[rancke]

The Shudusham Accords deal with robots. Robots are not protected beings because even if they were sentient, they are not lifeforms.

Cyborgs are not robots, they are lifeforms, so the Shudusham Accords have nothing to do with cyborgs.


Hans

 

[rancke]

Article 7: Provides for a new agency whose sole responsibility is to enforce the articles of the Concords.
...
The 37th amendment is well-known; it states that no pseudobiological
robot may attempt to pass itself off as a living being.​

It notes that the accords have no power of law in the 3I...

So what is the agency mentioned in Article 7?


Hans

 

[aramis]

So what is the agency mentioned in Article 7?


Hans

An agency of the Sylean Federation.

 

[Carlobrand]

Except that we know that they don't step in, because Margaret's sector has worlds where they're chattels.

Eh??

So, obviously, the SSMM is strong enough to prevent imperial intervention. ...

SSMM = ?

 

[aramis]

Eh??



SSMM = ?

SSMM - Society for the Sovereignty of Man over Machine

Chattels - animate things that can be owned. Pets, livestock, in some cultures also women and/or children; in one culture I've read about, men but not women. May have some rights, but certainly not those of free persons.

Since the guiding principles as best shown in canon for the Shudusham accords are that robots are excluded from being intelligent persons...

Oh, and remember - the 3I starts off as a transition of the Sylean federation from a democracy to an autocracy.

 

[rancke]

Since the guiding principles as best shown in canon for the Shudusham accords are that robots are excluded from being intelligent persons...

The Shudusham Accords does not appear to deal with the question of robot personhood as a corrolary of their intelligence at all. Cleon I was asked to rule on it 170 years after the Shudusham Accords were signed, and he sidestepped the issue by excluding robots from being persons (lifeforms).


Hans

 

[Lycanorukke]

Eh??
SSMM = ?

SSMM - Society for the Sovereignty of Man over Machine

Think a group like "Humanity First" from Deus Ex:HR. Very firm believers in 'Cybernetics Eat your Soul' (tvtropes alert).

 

[Carlobrand]

...Chattels - animate things that can be owned. Pets, livestock, in some cultures also women and/or children; in one culture I've read about, men but not women. May have some rights, but certainly not those of free persons. ...

Chattels I'm familiar with. I think the law still treats my kids as chattels in some respects. The bit about Margaret's Sector tolerating the treatment of individuals as chattels on some worlds, that's news to me. What's that from?

 

[Ref00000]

But isn't this all assuming 'true intelligence' and full sentience?
a 'bot with a lot of good programming is not 'a sophont'. it just pretends to be.
very well.
a 'true, emergent, intelligence' would, according to the rules stated in the supplement, only crop up rarely, if ever.
as for truly cybered up biologicals, does that 25% have to be the brain, or part of it? or does that mean 'anyone who's had their arms and legs replaced with cyber is going to be judged 'ownable' when they step off their ship?'