The, err, 'foil'

[MJD]

The 'foil' in Traveller is actually a smallsword, or at least a member of the smallsword family. Maybe even a late transition rapier. But basically it's not unlike this....

'this' being a random smallsword bout we filmed last week for various reasons.

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/6721864/Mark and Martin - Smallsword.m4v

 

[aramis]

Keep in mind: the french dueling foil was a sharp tip, and more diamond than square... a light weight training weapon de-rebated and sharpened. Popular with students in Paris in the early 19th C.

And, doing only 1D damage, and being a 80cm blade, it's very much likely to be a genuine dueling foil, with a 2:1 h:w on the blade, and sharpening for the first several inches (5-15cm) of tip.

 

[Carlobrand]

I suspect the Traveller foil represents the smallsword family generically, as a gamemaster could as easily lump the epee or the rapier into the same category. Indeed, the thing is also called a rapier. In my mind a rapier and a foil are very different beasts, but their game effects are close enough that little is lost by treating them identically. In the same vein, the Trav rifle is a generic rifle, ignoring the variety in calibers of rifles.

 

[GypsyComet]

I've been reading Richard Cohen's "By the Sword". While he does tend to go on a bit, he does manage to make clear that precision labeling of dueling swords across history is an exercise in frustration, if not futility.

 

[MJD]

Yes, terminology is a minefield.

Given the relative weight and size of wound track, I would tend to put a true rapier in the 'sword' category rather than a 'foil', with lighter transition rapiers maybe going in with smallswords.

 

[Carlobrand]

Yes, terminology is a minefield. ...

Yup ...

... Given the relative weight and size of wound track, I would tend to put a true rapier in the 'sword' category rather than a 'foil', with lighter transition rapiers maybe going in with smallswords.

... but he went there anyway.:rofl:

 

[aramis]

Yes, terminology is a minefield.

Given the relative weight and size of wound track, I would tend to put a true rapier in the 'sword' category rather than a 'foil', with lighter transition rapiers maybe going in with smallswords.

The "Sword" described in the text is a smallsword. As is almost every modern military dress sword. The US Army's Sabre is, for game purposes, close enough to the Navy Sword to be below the resolution. As is the Marine dress cutlass. And the Commonwealth Mamluke swords, as well. Oh, and if you have the money to spend, you can still get combat worthy dress swords.

The size and shape of a rapier's wound track is a narrow and deep puncture, or a shallow slice.

A Dueling Foil (as opposed to a modern Olympic foil) produces a very thin, very deep puncture. Or a scratch with the tip. A broken olympic foil also produces a very thin, very deep puncture.

Any of the swung swords has a long surface bruise, possibly deep muscle bruise, and maybe shattered bone and actual cut muscle.

 

[MJD]

If the 'sword' of Classic Traveller onward is a smallsword, then what of virtually every other kind of sword in existence? I always took it as:

Foil: Small, light weapons such as smallswords, duelling foils, sword-canes and the like.
Cutlass: Heavy-bladed cutting swords, eg cutlass, heavy cavalry* sabre, backsword
Broadsword: 2-handed swords of all types
Sword: pretty much the rest of them, including light infantry sabres, rapiers and such.

It's not a great distinction but it works.


*(I mean light/heavy sabres for cavalry use, not sabres for light/heavy cavalry necessarily.)

 

[MJD]

There are some fairly profound differences between smallsword and rapier - though transition weapons by definition closed the gap.

The smallsword family includes some that have a sharp edge, though none are particularly effective at cutting, and is designed (obviously) for thrusting. Duelling foils and similar weapons would fall into this category.

The rapier family is primarily designed for thrusting as well (unless you want to include the sideswords) but has a much heavier blade with two good cutting edges. They produce a greatly wider wound track on a thrust and have the mass to deliver a cut equal to many sabres or even a backsword, in the right hands.

(by way of comparison, my smallswords have 32" blades, my rapier has a much heavier and thicker 37" blade. The differences this creates are significant, though there is much crossover in technique).

Anyway, my feeling is that the rapier and smallsword should be in different categories in terms of wounding (though 1D for a penetrating thrust to the torso is a little light...).

 

[aramis]

There are some fairly profound differences between smallsword and rapier - though transition weapons by definition closed the gap.

The smallsword family includes some that have a sharp edge, though none are particularly effective at cutting, and is designed (obviously) for thrusting. Duelling foils and similar weapons would fall into this category.

The rapier family is primarily designed for thrusting as well (unless you want to include the sideswords) but has a much heavier blade with two good cutting edges. They produce a greatly wider wound track on a thrust and have the mass to deliver a cut equal to many sabres or even a backsword, in the right hands.

(by way of comparison, my smallswords have 32" blades, my rapier has a much heavier and thicker 37" blade. The differences this creates are significant, though there is much crossover in technique).

Anyway, my feeling is that the rapier and smallsword should be in different categories in terms of wounding (though 1D for a penetrating thrust to the torso is a little light...).

Which is why I suggest the rapier (which, as I've noted before, most historical ones are NOT edged - 3 different Arma endorsed publications note this, including Arte of the Sword) should be a 2d weapon using the Foil table, and maybe 1 better at short.

 

[Supplement Four]

Link in OP no good.

 

[MJD]

The files were a bit big for Dropbox.

No worries, it was just some random smallsword bouting we filmed the other night.

 

[MJD]

The vast majority of rapier treatises - all the ones I've seen anyway - include sections on cutting, both of a percussive-drawn 'full-cut' sort and a more opportunistic tip-cut type (stramatzione, I think the term is....).

I know that some later rapier designs had no edge; these were transition weapons heading into the smallsword era. Certainly the mainstream rapiers could cut, and effectively so. The blade is heavy enough to deliver a very effective cut - which is often combined with a finishing thrust in a rather elegant manner.

Point is, 1D damage for being stabbed with a smallsword seems very low. A rapier should be hurting more than that.

 

[rancke]

I don't usually comment on this kind of thing, because I feel that if people enjoy going into certain details, they should be allowed to enjoy themselves by going into those details with no heckling from the rest of us, but I'm going to make an exception today.

I can't help marvelling at the amount of attention paid to differences between weapons in a system where Skill-0 is already fairly skilled and Skill-2 is professional level.

At that level of detail I myself would make do with two forms of melee weapon: Small light weapon and big heavy weapon. And the difference between open cuts and broken bones? What difference?

(Just for the record, that level of detail is not good enough for me, which is why I stopped using CT).


Hans

 

[Carlobrand]

I don't usually comment on this kind of thing, because I feel that if people enjoy going into certain details, they should be allowed to enjoy themselves by going into those details with no heckling from the rest of us, but I'm going to make an exception today.

I can't help marvelling at the amount of attention paid to differences between weapons in a system where Skill-0 is already fairly skilled and Skill-2 is professional level.

At that level of detail I myself would make do with two forms of melee weapon: Small light weapon and big heavy weapon. And the difference between open cuts and broken bones? What difference?

(Just for the record, that level of detail is not good enough for me, which is why I stopped using CT).


Hans

It's a good point. The Roman Gladius is no smallsword, and it's not a Viking Longsword either, but at the end of the fight it's still about one man going down and one man left standing. There are minor points that made a huge difference depending on what your opponent was using for armor, whether or not he had a shield, what he was using for a melee weapon, whether he was fighting alone or in line with others - but in the context of the typical Traveller character and the equipment he's likely to have, they all boil down to things that cut him up or poke holes in his body. The differences tend to only matter when the weapon is actually being used in the context that it was designed for.

 

[Orr]

A quick question for all the sword play enthusiasts (and especially for MJD who teaches it!), riffing on what Rancke alluded to in his post about CT being too granular, have any of you found any combat systems which do a good job of approximating melee combat?

 

[aramis]

A quick question for all the sword play enthusiasts (and especially for MJD who teaches it!), riffing on what Rancke alluded to in his post about CT being too granular, have any of you found any combat systems which do a good job of approximating melee combat?

I've found a few that do a reasonable job, but they're not exactly simple...

Burning Wheel does a rather good job, except for the scripting 3 moves at a time. It feels much like SCA rapier fencing and SCA Heavy in terms of the give and take, and the "Oh ****" moments when you realize you got read by the other guy. (We've also tried it staying scripted 3 moves ahead... which is BRUTAL... but a LOT of fun...)

ARMA endorsed The Riddle Of Steel - but I've not played it, and it's OOP.

 

[Orr]

I've found a few that do a reasonable job, but they're not exactly simple...

I guess they wouldn't be simple as they're trying to more accurately model the reality of sword play.

Burning Wheel does a rather good job, except for the scripting 3 moves at a time.

Didn't "En Garde" do something like that? You had to certain multi-step moves and could only shift from what you chose to specific others?

ARMA endorsed The Riddle Of Steel - but I've not played it, and it's OOP.

OOP? Too bad, I'm always late to the party.

Thanks for the answers, Aramis.

 

[aramis]

I guess they wouldn't be simple as they're trying to more accurately model the reality of sword play.



Didn't "En Garde" do something like that? You had to certain multi-step moves and could only shift from what you chose to specific others?

10 "beats" of instructions, with some actions taking multiple beats. Most fights in En Garde last only a couple rounds before someone's either saigne (bleeding) or est mort (dying).
It really is too convoluted for me, and I've only tried it once. I can't say it does it well... But I've seen a lot of PBP and PBEM fight results posted online. It's BRUTAL.

It also makes me thing Olympic Foil rather than rapier or smallsword.

Martin, any games you think do melee well?

 

[MJD]

Not that I know of. Most games give melee weapons very low damage ratings and don't really give much of a feel for what combat is like. Those that try to do it better are generally very specialised and not very accessible to the uninitiated.