The Future of Small Arms

[veltyen]

One thing that I would expect at higher tech levels is a strong crossover between shotguns and grenade launchers.

A 20mm grenade launcher and a 10 Gauge shotgun are very similar devices. Even down to the tendency not to be rifled.

 

[Pickles]

Isn't 20mm a bit small for a grenade launcher? But, I agree that there should be a lot more to shotguns at higher TLs than just buckshot. Of course, you still have to trade off between stopping power and penetration, shipboard, so HEAP might not be the way to go for boarding actions ...

 

[veltyen]

20mm is a bit small for a GL. It is however the calibre of the XM25/OICW so it could be used. At higher tech with smaller guidance and timing and more compact high explosives it would start to be a little more useful. The problem with 25 or 30 mm is that carrying many rounds starts to be a little iffy.

 

[Uncle Bob]

The XM25 uses a 25mm grenade, the same warhead as the XM307/OCSW. It weighs just a little less than a M433 40x46SR grenade from a M203 (0.13 vs 0.15 Kg).
With the smaller, lighter electronic fuse I anticipate a similar 5m casualty radius. The fuse has already show a <2m error.

 

[mike wightman]

Isn't there a "sniper rifle" in development that uses those 25mm grenades as well?

 

[veltyen]

Not exactly grenades. The weapon you are thinking of is the
XM109
which fires a low velocity 25mm explosive round. Still quite similar though.

Doh! Thanks Uncle Bob, I got my model numbers confused. The XM29 is 20mm and the direct ancestor of the XM25. This of course reinforces the arguement that 20mm is a little anemic.

 

[mike wightman]

That's the one .

Thanks for the link

 

[Fritz_Brown]

<Cast Thread Ressurect!>
OK, here is the question: In terms of skills, is there enough difference between a SMG and assault rifles or simply automatic (fully) pistols to warrant a separate skill?

The issue is related to a discussion in the T5 playtest area, but I thought y'all (Corejob and Uncle Bob, especially) should take a shot at this. In order to reduce skill-cascade-proliferation, one proposal has been to use the following under any ranged combat skill: 0-G Wpns (accelerators, basically), Bow, Crossbow, Laser Wpns, Muzzle-loader, Pistol, Revolver, Rifle, Shotgun, Sling, SMG. For reference, LMG/LAG used to be on the list, but it was suggested they be moved to the support weapons cascade. The idea is to group weapons by use/maintenance rather than aesthetics (like the difference between rifles and carbines).

Thoughts, please.

 

[Todg]

An SMG is a very different weapon than an assault rifle. Employment and function s quite different. An SMG is strictly a close in weapon, and many SMGs don't even have provision for semi-automatic fire.

 

[Fritz_Brown]

Would it be the same as a fancy pistol, then? I want to know if there is a good reason to keep that skill.....

 

[Uncle Bob]

You want a simple answer? From me?
I have used, for contrast, two SMGs, the Ingram MAC-10 and the HK MP5. The MP5 handled like a gentle carbine.

OTOH the MAC writhed and twisted. It was nowhere near as accurate, even if you could fire a single shot. It was nothing like a pistol either, with your having to direct the burst so that recoil spreads it across the target, rather than aiming a single bullet with precission.

I am afraid the MAC was more like a Traveller SMG, so I think you ought to keep the unique SMG skill.

 

[Todg]

I agree. I own a PAWS ZX-5 smg (sterling copy). It's sort of a carbine - less accurate but easy to control on auto. Effective range is really only about 100 meters.

 

[Pickles]

So the answer would be to keep the SMG skill, but differentiate the types of weapon which would be used with it - e.g. Uzis, Thompsons, Sterlings, MP40s? How would these be described in Traveller terms?

Fully-automatic short-barreled carbines firing high-powered pistol ammunition, with no or rudimentary shoulder stocks?

 

[eclipse]

Originally posted by Bromgrev:
So the answer would be to keep the SMG skill, but differentiate the types of weapon which would be used with it - e.g. Uzis, Thompsons, Sterlings, MP40s? How would these be described in Traveller terms?

Fully-automatic short-barreled carbines firing high-powered pistol ammunition, with no or rudimentary shoulder stocks?

Here is an interesting hybrid weapon I gearheaded for TNE:
Strasse Pistol, Model 9, Experimental

 

[Fritz_Brown]

I will keep the SMG skill - the true SMG is a somewhat unique weapon, and should be treated as such. Does the range posited above cover most everything, then?

0-G Wpns (accelerators, basically), Bow, Crossbow, Laser Wpns, Muzzle-loader, Pistol, Revolver, Rifle, Shotgun, Sling, SMG

Oh, and BTW, TYVM!

 

[mike wightman]

SMGs of the world.

 

[Pickles]

Ok, I concede on the SMG front, but they need to be more narrowly defined (MP5s would not be SMGs under this skill).

I would consider revolver a kind of pistol. Operating principles (as in shooting, not mechanical) are the same. So, I would only have 'pistol' skill, not pistol and revolver.

 

[Fritz_Brown]

The reasons for the split, are these:
1) Reload - major difference
2) Nothing to pinch your hand with a revolver (more forgiving of hand "posture")
3) Difference in silencers, mounting scopes, etc.
4) Fanning - Cowboy Action Shooting just cannot be accomplished with an AutoPistol.
5) Can you say "Cap and Ball" or "Percussion Cap"?

But, yeah, Bromgrev, that was a deliberate thought process I went through - lots of thoughts of hypocrisy for combining one set, and not another.

 

[Pickles]

Teehee, no sooner is one quibble laid to rest than I start up on another one ...

Originally posted by Fritz88:
The reasons for the split, are these:
1) Reload - major difference
2) Nothing to pinch your hand with a revolver (more forgiving of hand "posture")
3) Difference in silencers, mounting scopes, etc.

These differences also apply to rifles and carbines - you've got pump-action, lever-action, revolver and self-loading mechanisms, not to mention fully automatic versions. Then there are all the other differences.

What I'm saying is that, in game terms, the skill used in shooting a self-lading pistol should be the same as the skill used in shooting a revolver. After all, the skill is not used for loading, maintaining, fitting silencers, or anything else - just shooting.

4) Fanning - Cowboy Action Shooting just cannot be accomplished with an AutoPistol.

I hope there is an insanely high negative modifier for hitting anything with this method!

5) Can you say "Cap and Ball" or "Percussion Cap"?

Again, I would assert that there is no in-game difference between pointing and shooting a Colt Navy or a Glock 17.

Hmmm ... but now you've got me thinking about tech-level differentiated skills ...

 

[Fritz_Brown]

Originally posted by Bromgrev:
Teehee, no sooner is one quibble laid to rest than I start up on another one ...

That doesn't bother me....

Originally posted by Bromgrev:
What I'm saying is that, in game terms, the skill used in shooting a self-lading pistol should be the same as the skill used in shooting a revolver. After all, the skill is not used for loading, maintaining, fitting silencers, or anything else - just shooting.

Well, regardless of what the game mechanics might say, I have always maintained it includes things like reloading. That is an integral part of the shooting skill. You are right that we have the problem, then, of tubular mags, bolt-actions, etc. as well as the difference twixt flintlock, matchlock, and percussion cap rifles.

Originally posted by Bromgrev:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> 4) Fanning - Cowboy Action Shooting just cannot be accomplished with an AutoPistol.

I hope there is an insanely high negative modifier for hitting anything with this method!</font>[/QUOTE]Not if you're a cowboy!

Originally posted by Bromgrev:
Hmmm ... but now you've got me thinking about tech-level differentiated skills ...

I am including this in my homebrew rules. All skills will be related to the TL in which they were acquired/practiced. Significant increases/decreases will have -DMs to use of the skill. (OT Example: Can you imagine that COBOL programmer trying to hack that TL-15 Starport computer?)