The Grognard Problem

[Malenfant]

I think if you can't make a storyline yourself that has the drama, guns, explosions, heroes etc, then you shouldn't be a GM. OK, maybe that's a bit extreme, but the point is that it's the GM's task to keep the players excited and entertained. Even today, people don't need the background to do that for them, and people can actually still struggle to do that even if that sort of background you describe is there.

Someone on RPGnet posted about a Traveller game they were playing (which I can't find now since search there is down) in that was dead bloody boring. The archetypal bean counters in space thing, absolutely nothing exciting going on despite many opportunities for something to go wrong.

You've got some very odd ideas about how the RPG market works. Better task targets and realistic worldgen systems won't bring in more people. A better presented system, that is designed from the ground up in a similar way to the ones that are around today (ie uncomplicated, few tables, easy to learn, fairly loose) will probably go some way to attracting people though. An interesting and relevant background (which Traveller lacks currently. TNE was the only attempt at that, and the grognards revolted against it) will also attract new people.

But then again, I'm starting to think that Traveller has had its day anyway. Conversions exist for two very popular systems (GURPS and d20), nothing is going to top that in terms of popularity. And at this stage, nobody really needs anything else from the game other than some ready made adventures and new milieus to play in, and the last thing anyone needs for Traveller is yet another system to play it with, that's for sure.

 

[flykiller]

I think if you can't make a storyline yourself that has the drama, guns, explosions, heroes etc, then you shouldn't be a GM.

agreed. and since we're talking about attracting new people who probably don't have these skills, what better way than to assign the whole traveller project to a few top-knotch professional referees?

A better presented system, that is designed from the ground up in a similar way to the ones that are around today

yes. a professionally designed, professionally presented, splendorous story product that new fans can spectate.

and, yeah, a few simple rules and guidelines so that those who are inclined can try their hand at "living the adventure".

nobody really needs anything else from the game other than some ready made adventures

(getting up off the floor, painfully) why mal! a referee's attitude! where on earth did you get it?

 

[Malenfant]

Originally posted by flykiller:
agreed. and since we're talking about attracting new people who probably don't have these skills, what better way than to assign the whole traveller project to a few top-knotch professional referees?

What on earth are you talking about? Again you're coming across as having a very irrational fear of pre-made backgrounds.

yes. a professionally designed, professionally presented, splendorous story product that new fans can spectate.

I like how you have a go at me for not presenting things objectively, and yet there you go bringing up your 'fans are spectators' assumption again.

A well made rpg has lots of hooks for GMs to hang their own adventures on, and the vast majority of rpgs today do that very well. You've got this bizarre idea that modern RPGS that come with their own settings are all just 'spectator sports'. That's flat out wrong, and again it implies that you simply haven't bothered to look further than the cover of these games.

Get it out of your head that being provided with a setting somehow stunts the imagination and 'forces' players to play in someone else's world. That's how roleplaying works, and has for the past couple of decades. If you don't like that then I would suggest that you stick with spending your time making your own backgrounds and not complain when ready-made backgrounds are more popular, or perhaps you should find a new hobby.

(getting up off the floor, painfully) why mal! a referee's attitude! where on earth did you get it?

How many RPGs other than Traveller have you played or run, out of curiosity? I've reffed four or five campaigns in my time for various systems myself, and played in more. And I have run Traveller, once, which was a using what turned out to be a terribly dull pre-made adventure.

 

[Malenfant]

Originally posted by flykiller
I'm older, and my attitude is shaped by the time when pre-supplied graphics and settings were uncommon and if you wanted to see something new you had to use your own imagination. to me traveller is something you do. but things like iron kingdoms are something that you visit - like a movie or a book or an art show - to see someone else's work. for all the color and excitement and flaming weapons and bulging bustlines it strikes me as being sterile.

should traveller be high-powered graphic literature, with a gaming system appended?

Let me get this straight. You don't like pre-made settings that have lots of plot hooks, good art, detailed background etc.

You label these as "sterile graphic literature" as if there's no room for players or GMs in there, and declare that we are just spectators on this sort of thing (which is flat-out wrong). ALL rpgs are someone else's work. Even Traveller.

And then you imply that it would be wrong for Traveller to go the same way (again, apparently largely because you fail to comprehend how to use a pre-made setting), when that way has generated lots of sales and interest, and lots of happy players and GMs.

I suspect that the real problem is you here, not RPGs. If you honestly can't see how to use a well-written ready-made setting to create interesting scenarios for your players, if you honestly feel RESTRICTED by this and feel awkward that you're just paddling in someone else's pool then perhaps you really DO need to get another hobby.

 

[flykiller]

And I have run Traveller, once, which was a using what turned out to be a terribly dull pre-made adventure.

yes, that's been discussed in another thread. we know what you think of it.

anyone else? it seems to me that if a new rpg (for example a new version of traveller) must be "splendorous" to attract new players in today's market then the ultimaate result of these forces is that the rpg must make the transition from ad hoc amateur private game to organized professional spectator event, i.e. it's no longer really a game except at corporate headquarters where the professionals run it. any other approach would seem to be merely transitional. what say you?

 

[parmasson]

Advance apology for a long rambling post. “Sorry”
I want to drag this back to a few earlier points if I can

By Aramis
Which brings me back to point: What is it I, the MT grognard that I seem to be, want out of T5?

To answer your question first:
Whatever you or I want we will probably not find in T5. I (and many others) will continue to do what we have done since MT came out. We will use the incarnation we most love and borrow from the other sources as we see fit.
In the age of d20 any proprietary system will have to be something special. I took one look at a friend’s T4 book and then went right back to the elegant simplicity of the charts and tables book of my 83' starter edition. I never really gave it a chance. I don’t know why because I love the new D&D stuff. What I am getting at is that we must be so close to the subject that we can’t make an objective assessment. For many the CT rules are the old comfy “smelly pair of shoes” that I will not give up.

by BrennanHawkwood

I think a serious decision about who T5 is oriented toward needs to be made. Is it intended to bring new blood into the Traveller gaming community or simply to entertain pre-existing players.

You have hit the nail on the head here. Is there anyone on this board who is new to Traveller? IMHO T5 should be for NEW players. The universe is big enough for all of us but they need a second generation of fanatics, people who will waste hour upon hour crafting detailed worlds that players can ignore on a whim and writing carefully crafted plots that are blown apart by a single clever idea.

Respectfully submitted,

 

[Malenfant]

Goddammit, flykiller, where the hell are you getting this idea that it's 'no longer really a game' just because it has decent production values??

It's a bloody ridiculous and utterly baseless belief. You do realise that the so-called 'professionals' are just gamers like us who happen to work at a RPG publisher right? They don't have any special qualities that separate them from us (save perhaps for the ability to write good, clear english to deadlines)

Where is the evidence that a shiny full colour 500 page hardback is somehow less of a game than three LBBs with no art in them? Where is the evidence that players and GMs are reduced to 'spectators'?

Sure, if there's some huge overarching metaplot that drives the game and the PCs have no importance then maybe you have a point, but I can't think of any games around today where that is the case. Why? Because the publishers are well aware that they don't sell, precisely because if people are just going to be irrelevant bystanders then they might as well just read a novel. The point is THIS DOESN"T HAPPEN IN PRACTICE. And certainly, that has absolutely nothing to do with how the game looks or is laid out or presented.

So for the nth time, drop the assumption that you think this will occur with Traveller if it gets a presentation upgrade, because it won't. Your assertions are simply incorrect.

 

[Malenfant]

Originally posted by Parmasson:
You have hit the nail on the head here. Is there anyone on this board who is new to Traveller? IMHO T5 should be for NEW players. The universe is big enough for all of us but they need a second generation of fanatics, people who will waste hour upon hour crafting detailed worlds that players can ignore on a whim and writing carefully crafted plots that are blown apart by a single clever idea.[/QB]

It's not exactly scientific, but I asked that in a couple of polls and the impression I got is that most of the people who responded who picked GT and T20 were already Traveller fans.

I really don't think a lot of new people are being brought in at all - some are, but not a lot. Traveller still has a lot of negative baggage associated with it (random chargen, dying during chargen, tables, tables and more tables etc).

 

[flykiller]

IMHO T5 should be for NEW players.

then why not stick with t20? lots of people report good results with new players using that.

 

[daryen]

Personally, I think T5 is pretty much doomed no matter what.

If it is for existing players, then it has little chance for success, as most existing players already have a favorite version. And the version T5 is to be based on (T4) comes in last on the "favorite version" list.

If it is for new players, most new players (from what I can see) don't want a new system, they just want the game presented in the system they already use. We already have that in T20. T5 will either require T20 to stop, or will divert attention from it. Whether you like d20 or not, T20 is probably the best chance Traveller has to reach new players.

Finally, if it is for new players AND it must (for some unknown reason) use a new and unique game system, then it has to be updated to use today's sensibilities. It must (among other things) ditch the OTU and the 70's tech assumptions.

With the tech, it needs to move ahead and fix things that we now know are ridiculous. Move the technology forward and include things that modern players will expect. Jump is fine, but figure out what all of that hydrogen is really for (or eliminate it). Contragravity is fine, but be consistent in its application. Include advanced robotics, bionics, and biotechnology.

With the OTU, keep as much as possible, but don't be stopped by "canon". Have a feudalistic Imperium, but make it one sector rather than a dozen. Keep the Aslan, but make them not be lion-men. Keep the K'kree, but eliminate all references to "centaurs". Make the worlds and stars make more sense. Figure out how the Imperium should operate given updated computers and biotechnology.

I know this message is probably pointless. I tried to keep quiet, but I just couldn't help myself. I will go crawl back into my hole now ...

 

[parmasson]

by flykiller
then why not stick with t20? lots of people report good results with new players using that.

by daryen
Personally, I think T5 is pretty much doomed no matter what

There is the problem. A very good widely used system is already out there and in use! I will not go as far to say that it is doomed before it is released but it will have to be something special to capture the imagination of the new players. I have now looked over both the T20 lite and GT core books. Damn good stuff.

it has to be updated to use today's sensibilities

I agree. To draw in a new generation it needs to depart from the old universe of big IBM mainframes and 70s sci fi. I hate to say it but it needs to be more “sexy” and cutting edge with cybertech, AIs and genetic modification. I didn’t think so at first but in my new campaign we have ended up with that stuff anyway.

 

[flykiller]

with cybertech, AIs and genetic modification. I didn’t think so at first but in my new campaign we have ended up with that stuff anyway.

any humans left? or did they just dabble slightly in the shallow end? can o' worms there.

I hate to say it but it needs to be more “sexy”

so. thought experiment. you're trying to sell traveller. it's unknown and/or has a bad rep. your average whoever walks up to a bookrack and sees a book with the label "traveller". what's on the cover? what do you put on it to communicate to him what traveller is? how else would you persuade him to buy it and try it out?

 

[mike wightman]

Remember the gun ⌧ inside cover of T2300?

Ship and vehicle ⌧ in a similar style.

Oh, and the guns.

Next, a piece of high action fiction - I can read the first chaper in Reality Dysfuntion and the prologue to Consider Phlebas again and again and again (ship combat ⌧ ).

A few maps, charts, ship, vehicle , and equipment diagrams and deckplans.

A sample adventure or two in the book or easily available online, a free pdf with all charts, tables, illustrations etc.

 

[Malenfant]

Originally posted by flykiller:
how else would you persuade him to buy it and try it out?

Buggered if I know. What does Traveller do that other scifi games don't?

"Traveller, the game that lets you play your father's scifi! Be an ordinary guy travelling round the universe doing... stuff!"

See, I look at Firefly and think "now if Traveller was like THAT it'd be really cool". But Traveller isn't like that - it could be, but it's not.

 

[flykiller]

Remember the gun ⌧ inside cover of T2300?

(laugh)

Next, a piece of high action fiction

ok, so literature and "⌧". yeah, that will attract attention and generate sales. now ...

will that make him want to put in the many hours necessary to learn the game? remember. this guy isn't seeing the literature and "⌧" the way you and I do, as expressions of the game we already know. he sees eye candy, and then he sees a whole new set of rules, concepts, and settings to learn, i.e. work. he can get the eye candy without doing the work. what will you give him that will make him want to do the work?

 

[Malenfant]

flykiller, you generally seem to be very keen on asking questions while not proposing any answers yourself.

What would YOU do to make him want to "do the work"?

 

[mike wightman]

Originally posted by flykiller:
will that make him want to put in the many hours necessary to learn the game? remember. this guy isn't seeing the literature and "⌧" the way you and I do, as expressions of the game we already know. he sees eye candy, and then he sees a whole new set of rules, concepts, and settings to learn, i.e. work. he can get the eye candy without doing the work. what will you give him that will make him want to do the work?

The eye candy and the fiction get him hooked, a couple of free adventures, with more available online draw him further in, and then the examples, help and support a forum like this can provide keeps him coming back.
I thought that QLI did a great job with its free rules lite edition, free mini campaign, and free adventures.

I think T5 should be written from a role playing gamer's perspective rather than a wargamer's, the wargame elements can be included in later supplements for old grogs like me, but a new game should be for a new audience.

IMHO

 

[Uncle Bob]

Ah, yes. Cutting edge Scifi. Like "Firefly"? Or "Enterprise?" Cyberpunk is getting passe, too.
Firefly is CT. Or was if you had a good Referee.

But it is a bright sunny saturday morning and I got up early with no hangover. So a thorough overhaul of the technical architecture would be a good thing. Simplify, T20 and GT are both too complex and rules heavy. I like Dalton's task system (although I would be less generous with skill points).

What impressed me most originally about the OTU was the size of it. I mean, if the Duke of Regina tells the Emperor to p!&s off. it will take a year and a half for the Emperor to answer by X-boat. So Sector Dukes should be vastly more important.

Every schoolkid in the Spinward Marches knows Emperor Strephon the same way they know George Washington today. Even Duke Norris is as real to most people as Queen Victoria was in the Transvaal. This change in emphasis should be as good as a new melieu.

I don't need pictures. In fact I think they detract from most systems. But then I was never fond of comic books, either.` OK, gun ⌧ is OK.

The Keith Brothers allways did the best adventures. William is still around but he is writing killer SF now.

 

[flykiller]

The eye candy and the fiction get him hooked

did anyone here take up traveller because of eye candy and fiction? if the eye candy and fiction get him hooked, exactly what is he getting hooked on?

 

[mike wightman]

I got into Traveller after buying the first couple of Terran Trade Authority books, then Traders and Gunboats, and then The IISS Ship files, then Mercenary, and finally the LBBs themselves.