The Grognard Problem

[Malenfant]

Originally posted by flykiller:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />The eye candy and the fiction get him hooked

did anyone here take up traveller because of eye candy and fiction? if the eye candy and fiction get him hooked, exactly what is he getting hooked on? </font>[/QUOTE]I realise you're ignoring me (which is a pity since I know what I'm talking about, but it's your loss) but the RPG market today is not the RPG market of the early 70s where people accepted games with little art that were done up in someone's garage.

Like it or not, style has become important. Even generic systems have good art and clear rules now. Good art can grab a reader in a way that text can't, and is undoubtedly a better tool for helping someone visualise a setting. Fiction vignettes do the same thing.

Furthermore, one reason why Traveller was popular back in the late 70s was that there wasn't really anything like it around at the time. Today, there are lots of systems, and lots of scifi games. Transhuman Space, Blue Planet, Star Wars, Star Trek, a host of D20 games... Traveller has to compete with all of those. And frankly, I don't think it can. Systems have evolved too - for example, people generally don't want totally random chargen, they want choice. They want systems that encourage exciting choices for their characters, they want tech that they can believe in and that excites them.

T5 is doing nothing to even attempt to fit into the current market. The system is outdated and clunky, the writing is dry as a bone and poorly explained. And above all, most Traveller fans don't even really want a T5.

You seem to refuse to be willing to grasp these concepts, out of sheer stubbornness it seems. Get over it. You can stick your fingers in your ears and say LALALA I CAN'T HEAR YOU all you like, but that doesn't change the reality of the situation.

If Traveller is to survive, then IMO the best chance of moving forward is to stick with GT and T20. Marc should give up on the dead horse that is T5 and leave Traveller to the people who know what the market is like and who know they're doing.

 

[far-trader]

Originally posted by flykiller:
so. thought experiment. you're trying to sell traveller. it's unknown and/or has a bad rep. your average whoever walks up to a bookrack and sees a book with the label "traveller". what's on the cover? what do you put on it to communicate to him what traveller is? how else would you persuade him to buy it and try it out?

It's a bit like saying "What is Science Fiction?" It's many things to many people.

So, my Traveller marketing strategy in a nutshell:

Several covers, each thematic to a different aspect of Traveller. I'm thinking one with aliens trading (like Bryan's "market" sketch, but in color of course), another with a space battle (nothing too big) with some classic ships (maybe a type T firing on a type P), a third with an "alien" world and a type S in orbit, and a fourth with some troops and guns, a squad of regular troops pinned down under fire from some lasers calling in and pointing a grav equipped battle dress suited plasma gun firing marine at the (off panel) baddies.

That should about cover it (pun, oops )

The contents would be thin, a light version with just the needed rules. It would have a ready to run scenario appropriate to the scene depicted with an introductory fiction and step by step guide through the scenario. It would include any needed deckplans/maps and counters (including dice chits), equipment cards and character sheets. An introduction to Traveller complete and ready for a fun evening of easy play in a couple hours.

And it would be FREE. With small print to the effect that while costing a modest amount (say $5 US) that includes a coupon/code discount for buying/downloading the full RPG, and allowing multiple coupon/codes to apply so if you use the whole series of four on your purchase you get $20 US off the purchase.

Tell me that won't fly off the shelves IF there is a Sci-Fi RPG market.

Now then, as to my fee for this marketing advice...

 

[Uncle Bob]

You young whippersnappers

CT had to compete with Star Frontiers, Space Opera, Metamorphisis Alpha and at least two versions of Star Trek RPG. Traveller succeeded largely because it undertood the source material, drawing from mainstream SF (Poul Anderson, Alexei Panshin and James Schmitz leap to mind) rather than Hollywood SciFi.

It also had relatively simple, clean system. Easy to play or to referee.

If you want to see an updated Traveller, mention some source material you would like to see us draw inspiration from. William Gibson, certainly, although he is already dated. "Firefly"? That is written like a slightly above average CT campain (Bob Murphy, AKA "Murph" ran better around 1980). What else?

 

[Malenfant]

But again, you're missing the main point: Why is an 'updated Traveller' even necessary or required? We've already got two 'updated' (in terms of system) versions - GURPS and T20. We have a systemless milieu book (hopefully the first of several) in TNE:1248 from QLI.

The real problem seems to be that Marc's decided to go ahead with T5 for no apparent reason, which generally undermining and obstructing SJG and QLI's plans for the game.

Until the question of 'why even bother with T5' is answered, worrying about how to market it seems somewhat irrelevant.

And we've all seen how grognards react to change (in TNE) - they scream and wail and kick up a storm and publishers go back to the old boring OTU afterwards. So any change in the background - if there are no other options available - will not be well received.

 

[Uncle Bob]

Both T20 and GT have a lot of baggage they have brought from fantasy games. Both are overly complex, GT uses a 2nd generation engine, T20 is a 3rd generation engine, but with a lot of special rules left over from fantasy.
[OK, OK. Also, I haven't paid for a DnD labelled book for thirty yers and I don't want to start.]

The problem with TNE was threefold,
1) The premise was ree-diculus
2) The new setting was less fun to play in.
3) The new rules were $#!*.

I could forgive one, accept two, but three was too much.

 

[Morte]

Originally posted by Uncle Bob:
You young whippersnappers

If you want to see an updated Traveller, mention some source material you would like to see us draw inspiration from. William Gibson, certainly, although he is already dated.

Bruce Sterling - Schismatrix, the Shaper/Mechanist stories, Holy Fire, Islands in the Net (white hot SF, the best in the business)
Rudy Rucker - The Hacker and the Ants (evolving/emergent systems)
Vernor Vinge - A Fire Upon the Deep (scale, time, singularities)
Chris Cherryh - Cyteen, Serpent's Reach (ontology)
Greg Egan - Diaspora, the Axiomatic anthology (ontology again)
Gwynneth Jones - White Queen + North Wind + The Phoenix Cafe (alien contact and the colonialist instinct)
John Calvin Batchelor - The Birth of the People's Republic of Antarctica (brass tacks)
Phil Dick - A Scanner Darkly (style and mood)
Chip Delany - Nova (being the odd man out), Babel 17 (language and consciousness)
Neal Stephenson - Snow Crash (neuro-linguistics and cognition, freedom, employer/employee relations)
Brian Stableford - Mortimer Grey's History of Death (why we cling to life)
Maria Doria Russel - The Sparrow (symbiotic societies)
Ken MacLeod - The Star Fraction (libertarian capitalism)
Lew Shiner - Frontera (motive)
Michael Swanwick - Stations Of The Tide (the nature of bureacracy and why its nature matters)

... and anything that "burns the motherhood statement"

And the chances of T5 addressing any of that are about the same as my chances of shagging Kate Moss in bath filled with champagne...

 

[flykiller]

The contents would be thin, a light version with just the needed rules. It would have a ready to run scenario appropriate to the scene depicted with an introductory fiction and step by step guide through the scenario. It would include any needed deckplans/maps and counters (including dice chits), equipment cards and character sheets. An introduction to Traveller complete and ready for a fun evening of easy play in a couple hours.

And it would be FREE.

personally I find this intriguing.

so each module would include:

1) a set of dirt simple core rules, common to each module
2) a set of dirt simple extension germane to the adventure at hand
3) a simple one-shot adventure that leads to the next in a series. or, that leads to several provided adventure seeds - gets the referee and the players thinking about where they themselves could take their game, instead of just sitting back and saying "well that was interesting, what next?"
4) a good deckplan, field depiction, star port, or city map, germane to the adventure
5) a cover graphic and an internal graphic worth buying and germane to the adventure
6) general hints and outright statements of what the full setting is and what the full game could be
7) the player can either stick with the simple rulesets used in the modules, or can progress to the full game - again, in steps

now this might attract gamers rather than collectors. lets them get their feet wet without some major investment in time or money. reminds me of squad leader. I don't know, seems like it's already been done. maybe it needs to be done again.

 

[far-trader]

Yep, you've got the idea. Can't say it's all that original but like you say maybe it needs to be done again.

 

[mike wightman]

I like it

 

[flykiller]

any reason we, meaning us, couldn't put out a few of these? given the above format and keeping the intended end result in mind each one individually seems quite doable.

 

[Malenfant]

Originally posted by far-trader:
Yep, you've got the idea. Can't say it's all that original but like you say maybe it needs to be done again.

Sounds like a freebie demo game really, companies have done this before (e.g. DP9).

That's all very well if you have a game to demo, but in T5's case you don't. What would you show off in such a demo?

And how would you persuade anyone who wants to make a scifi setting that they should use T5 instead of GURPS or Star HERO or D20 Future or D6 Space or any other scifi system?

 

[aramis]

Originally posted by Uncle Bob:
You young whippersnappers

CT had to compete with Star Frontiers, Space Opera, Metamorphisis Alpha and at least two versions of Star Trek RPG. Traveller succeeded largely because it undertood the source material, drawing from mainstream SF (Poul Anderson, Alexei Panshin and James Schmitz leap to mind) rather than Hollywood SciFi.

Get your facts straight:
Traveller is 1977
Space Opera is not out until 1981
Star Frontiers is 1982.
Metamorphosis Alpha is listed as 1978
Gamma world is later than that; it's the sequel to MA.
Starfaring, BY FBI is 1976
Starships and Spacemen is 1978
FASA-Trek is 1983 or 84
Mechanoids is 1981

Traveller therefore competed with only a couple systems when it came out: Starfaring, which went almost nowhere, and S&S, which was a trek knock-off, and appealed to a usually different audience. Half the "Shelf-life" of CT is not in competition (CT SL = 1977-1986) as the prime Traveller is spent being the dominant Sci-Fi system. They TOOK players from Traveller, not the other way around.

Starfaring was not terribly well written from what I've heard, and traveller put far more tools in the GM's hands, in an era when RPG's were seen as tool-kits.

Met. Alpha and Gamma World really are not competitors to Traveller any more than Boot Hill was. THey are post-holocaust games.

So traveller really gets no serious competition until the release of Space Opera, Star Frontiers, and GURPS Space. And at that time, Traveller IS the "D&D of SciFi". It was the marketing juggernaut of SFRPGs, the standard by which others were measured, since it provided the widest array of GM Tools.

 

[far-trader]

Originally posted by Malenfant:
That's all very well if you have a game to demo, but in T5's case you don't. What would you show off in such a demo?

Well I did take the question as "the game is done, now sell it". I hate, really HATE vapourware.

Originally posted by Malenfant:
And how would you persuade anyone who wants to make a scifi setting that they should use T5 instead of GURPS or Star HERO or D20 Future or D6 Space or any other scifi system?

That's the advertising though. You promote your system through the "mini game" and include a discount for the "full game" in it.

I do agree though that I doubt very much it would work for T5 as currently envisioned before I dropped out of that morass. It's just too complicated to make an easy hook product from I think. CT+ on the other hand would probably work quite well in such a format.

 

[far-trader]

Originally posted by flykiller:
any reason we, meaning us, couldn't put out a few of these? given the above format and keeping the intended end result in mind each one individually seems quite doable.

It's kinda what I was hoping might happen when (if) the limited marketing thing ever happens, and as noted, while this came up in the T5 section, it would be easier to do for something like CT+ (or even just plain old CT or T20).

So, no, I see no reason "we" might not be able to do this, once (again, if) the limited marketing plan is in place.

 

[Whipsnade]

Why does Traveller need another RPG system? Well, it doesn't need just another system, Traveller needs its own RPG system.

You can point to GURPS and T20 all you like. I own chunks of both and neither 'fit' Traveller well. Neither can fit Traveller well. One size does not fit all. 'Universal' RPG systems succeed because people are just plain lazy.

GURPS is a rules intense thicket that requires judicious pruning by a GM. It shows its wargame roots very well. Because GURPS is meant to handle any RPG setting, it must address every RPG setting. The amount of rules, add-ons, sourcebooks, and what-not that requires drowns the GM in too much information. Running Traveller with GURPS requires a GM to decide what of many, many, MANY bits he should leave out and which few bits to he should leave in.

Case in point: Which parts of UTI, UTII, Space, Psionics, and a dozen other non-Traveller GURPS books do you as the GM allow in or keep out? Why should you have to do that work at all? Traveller should be playable right out of the box.

Like all the other d20 variants, T20 is nothing but D&D with the serial numbers filed off. Sure, certain bits have been bolted and certain bits chopped off on in order to make all the d20 variants seem as if they aren't D&D, but none of that really works. The changes are clunky, players have trouble remembering them, and they do little to actually change the d20's fantasy RPG system into a sic-fi RPG system, a modern RPG system, a historical RPG, or anything else. In the players minds and in the GMs' minds they're just playing D&D dressed up in a funny suit.

Case in point: here's a thread over on the T20 forum in which the poster is asking for advice concerning disperate character levels in his T20 campaign. Some of the advice he is getting is a reminder that low level players will gather XPs more quickly than high level players and thus catch up. XPs? Levels? In Traveller? What's next, hire a Darrian ranger to help you steal iridium from a Geonee's underground warehouse?

Traveller deserves it's own RPG system. I have serious doubts that T5 will be that system. I believe that CT+, the proposed CT/MT upgrade, would be a better choice.

YMMV, but Traveller deserves its own system. Any good RPG setting deserves its own system.


Have fun,
Bill

 

[robject]

Originally posted by far-trader:

Several covers, each thematic to a different aspect of Traveller. [...]

The contents would be thin, a light version with just the needed rules. It would have a ready to run scenario appropriate to the scene depicted with an introductory fiction and step by step guide through the scenario. [...]

And it would be FREE. [...]

Tell me that won't fly off the shelves IF there is a Sci-Fi RPG market.

I like this...

 

[flykiller]

Traveller deserves it's own RPG system. I have serious doubts that T5 will be that system. I believe that CT+, the proposed CT/MT upgrade, would be a better choice.

t5 seems dead in the water and ct+ seems to have no effort behind it at all.

the ct'er in me pronounces "2d6 forever". the referee in me says "who cares, just play!"

you know, we could just up and do this. I'm game. anyone else?

far-trader, check pm please.

 

[Whipsnade]

Originally posted by flykiller:
t5 seems dead in the water and ct+ seems to have no effort behind it at all.

Fly,

Sadly true...

the ct'er in me pronounces "2d6 forever". the referee in me says "who cares, just play!" you know, we could just up and do this. I'm game. anyone else?

I like your introductory modules idea. Where should we begin then? How about tackling these questions/tasks in turn:

- Party size? (I'm guessing 4 to 6)
- Pregenerated characters? (Perhaps with custom options?)
- Which sort of 'dirt simple' rules? (I'd plump for the DGP/MT task system bolted onto CT.)
- A good weapon selection. ('gun ⌧' gotta love it!)
- What sort of adventure(s)?

The last is the biggy. What are the common Traveller adventure tropes? Trading? Raiding? Ship crawls? Strange worlds? Any others? One module for each trope? Or two or three tropes in each module? Or perhaps a theme?

Or would a 'dirt simple', stripped down version of The Traveller Adventure work instead? A main plot with a handful of detailed scenarios backed up by several Amber Zones the GM can use or not use at will?

Finally, the introductory fiction parts will be important. They'll set the tone and feel of the Traveller experience. This isn't Trek, this isn't D&D with guns, this is something different.

Anyone care to make some suggestions?


Have fun,
Bill

 

[alanb]

Originally posted by Bill Cameron:
Anyone care to make some suggestions?

Published Traveller scenarios that rocked: The Skyraiders Trilogy. Aka "Indiana Jones in space".

Recent SF TV show (and upcoming movie) that (or may) rocked: Serenity. Aka "Wild West in space".

OK. Clearly it's possible for Traveller to emulate certain aspects of "modern pulp". That's not surprising, given the source material it's drawn from.

"Modern pulp" can be exceedingly cool. It can even be quite intelligent.

It doesn't rely on the lastest greatest SF fads, but rather relies on classic stories. It is, quite literally, a story-telling genre.

We've seen already that cyberpunk, once the lastest Big Thing, is already rather passe. The fact is that good cyberpunk was good not so much for the neato gimmicks, but rather because it harkened back to: Pulp fiction! In short, it was Raymond Chandler and Dashiell Hammett in the near future.

In roleplaying games, of course, cyberpunk quickly became a munchkin genre, with the rather peripheral cybernetic elements of cyberpunk literature becoming a source of kewl toys.

Similarly, "transhuman" bumf is another fad which will disappear.

What won't disappear is the thrill of jumping onto a moving train with larceny and/or mayhem in mind. Or of finding a lost civilisation. Or, well, just walking down the Mean Streets, whether or not you have turned yourself into a metal freak.

So my suggestion is: "classic" plotlines. They've been done before, of course, but that's part of the definition of "classic".

 

[flykiller]

- Party size? (I'm guessing 4 to 6)

the minimum for the adventure to work, with provision for as many more as possible. we don't want some guy with only two available players to look at the "number of players required" and turn away.

- Pregenerated characters? (Perhaps with custom options?)

pregenerated base characters, with a selection of optional career paths. chargen lite. example:

"Chandra Lighter served sixteen years in the Imperial Scout Service, devoted to exploring and surveying territories Imperial and beyond. During her tours she picked up the common skills of Pilot 1, Navigator 1, and Comms 1. You determine the remainder of her career: Covert Ops (Equestrian 1, Streetwise 1, and Sidearm 2), or Operations (Pilot +1, Comms +1, Computer 2), or exploration (Survival 2, Longarm 1, Recon 2)."

- Which sort of 'dirt simple' rules? (I'd plump for the DGP/MT task system bolted onto CT.)

my thought exactly. in fact the task system should be the central rule, with the others minimized and if possible mentioned only in passing (such as chargen).

does any other game system have a task system? if not then this should be traveller's central gem.

- A good weapon selection. ('gun ⌧' gotta love it!)

generalize it to a good equipment selection. some adventures could emphasize guns, others could emphasize other requirements. grav belts, pgmp's, a good introduction to traveller tech.

- What sort of adventure(s)?

single-session adventurettes that can easily lead to others. examples: scouts landing on an unexplored world occupied by exotic animals, dangerous plants, and primitive tribals who are terrorized by a hostile robot abandoned there some time ago. marines in an opposed ship-boarding action. merchanters tasked to resupply a patrol ship only to find themselves confronting a pirate ship determined to prevent the resupply. belters who recover an artifact and must now try to get it past aggressive claim jumpers and devious bureaucrats to sell it to the right (or the wrong) people while the artifact is doing something to everyone's mind. this might be appropriate: http://members.aol.com/flykiller/traveller/comet.html

back up each one with appropriate support materials. planetary maps, star system maps, deckplans, npc's (including plants and animals and artifacts), equipment lists. these need not be extensive.

terminate each adventure with a list of adventure seeds that naturally follow from the module. this will get the players thinking about how they themselves can continue their game, rather than just sitting back and saying "that was nice, what's next?"

"Or would a 'dirt simple', stripped down version of The Traveller Adventure work instead?"

no no no no no no no. don't try to introduce a sector or the entire spread and reach of the imperium at all. you'll scare them away. rather introduce them to the game and its possibilities first. if they enjoy the game then they'll see the massive scope of traveller as an opportunity rather than as a workload.

"Finally, the introductory fiction parts will be important. They'll set the tone and feel of the Traveller experience. This isn't Trek, this isn't D&D with guns, this is something different."

I'd say critical. each adventure is introduced with simple background material necessary for the adventure hinting at, not explaining, the vast traveller setting. a supervisor's instructions, a lieutenant's orders, a brief overview. traveller's biggest selling point has always been it's "realism" - this should get included one way or another in every introduction.