The Grognard Problem
- Thread starter aramis
- Start date
This has degenerated into the T20 bashers vs. the T20 users.
I thought this was the forum for the company that PRODUCES T20. I never thought to find so much bashing of the product QLI makes here.
It's a fine product. It's bringing new Traveller players in. It's not perfect, far from it. It needs to be updated and improved, for sure. It could use a Players Handbook and a Referees Handbook, imho. But it IS the product that is being produced and sold these days. Not some creaking ancient system no one produces anymore.
I thought this was the forum for the company that PRODUCES T20. I never thought to find so much bashing of the product QLI makes here.
It's a fine product. It's bringing new Traveller players in. It's not perfect, far from it. It needs to be updated and improved, for sure. It could use a Players Handbook and a Referees Handbook, imho. But it IS the product that is being produced and sold these days. Not some creaking ancient system no one produces anymore.
daryen
SOC-14 1K
Oh, I see. You must be some agent of peace, right? If you don't want to watch the riot, don't throw the first punch. Or try for the last.
First, the CT system is currently available in the form of the Classic Traveller Reprints. If it was such a travesty to the senses, I doubt it would be able to support its own printing costs, which it apparently does.
Second, I don't know of anyone here, regardless of whether they like d20 or not, who does not support QLI and what they are doing. QLI is doing good work and is recognized for that here.
Third, in case you missed it, this is actually the T5 forum. One of the points of the forum, and even this discussion, is to hash out what is and isn't desired in the next version of T5. It would seem that one item not desired, even by many T20 fans, is "levels".
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
Sigh, nothing new there
Nope, this particular part of the forum is to discuss the T5 version of the game
I agree.
Well the player's handbook is in the works, and hopefully a referee's guide will follow on.
Print on Demand?
Anyhow, does anyone, even the dedicated die hard grognards here think that Classic Traveller is a current RPG? That it has any detectable percentage of the RPG market? Or even the (much smaller) Sci Fi RPG market? It's not a game, it's a collectors item.
My comment about this 'forum' was in reference to the CotI, not this particular forum. I've seen more T20 bashing on the CotI than I would have ever believed considering that the CotI is the QLI forums. Ah well, I suppose "DnD hatred" is a long standing habit with old Traveller players?
Me, I like Traveller a lot, but to me, Traveller is not mechanics (dieing during character gen? LOL) but the setting and look/feel. Mechanics are secondary to the appeal, for me. Having a set of mechanics you don't have to learn from scratch (d20 based for example) sure helps make the game more accessible.
But, then again, if the game was accessible and popular the grognards wouldn't have their superior smug "I'm smart enough to play this game and no one else is" comfort zone I guess. /sigh/
QLI makes T20, and has done more to keep Traveller alive than any other company I've seen in a long time. Kudo's to 'em.
M
Malenfant
Guest
From what I've gathered the reprints had a low print run to start with, and if they're selling to anyone then it's to collectors and people who already had Traveller as LBBs anyway or Traveller fans who missed it first time round.
Very few people outside the existing 'closed market' of Traveller fans are picking it up, from what I've seen and heard.
And yet, I distinctly recall that when CotI went up and before T20 was released people on this board were immediately dismissing T20 because it wasn't T5. They weren't going to bother looking at it purely because it was still just another conversion and not directly from the hallowed mind of Marc Miller. That, I think, is pretty damn disrespectful.
That may be true, and that's fine and fair enough (not that there's any sign of levels in T5 anyway). But that's no excuse to go off on a bender against d20 or T20 just because they have levels, and no excuse to get all intellectually snobbish about d20 either and make inaccurate pronounements about it. Fact is, CT is a very old system that is available again, and T5 hasn't really evolved beyond that, whereas d20 has most certainly been updated for the current market. Hell, it's pretty much defined the current market.
The other thing you have to realise is that for all the wishlists and design theories and everything proposed here, Marc isn't listening. You have to accept that everything said here is just random speculation and daydreaming that will have no resemblance to the reality because Marc is going to do it however HE wants to do it, and is not listening to what fans of the game want to see. So long as you don't mind wasting your time on this, then carry on.
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
Maybe T5 should be based on Exalted then...
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
...or perhaps T5 should just be setting books for D20F?
No, we are arguing about D20, not T20.
T20 is, from everything I have heard, a fine product that I hope I will eventually have the option of buying. At the moment, I don't. I have never seen a copy of T20 at my FLGS. Therefore, I have not bought it. Nor has anyone else.
The argument is about something basically unrelated. According to a couple of "experts", any product that isn't D20 based is doomed to suck and die in the current RPG market. That may well be true, except nobody asked their opinion in the first place.
Worse, one of these experts apparently believes that DnD/D20 and Traveller were the only roleplaying games ever published.
Unfortunately there are very few hobby shops that carry QLI's Traveller game. There are three in the entire state of Texas, for instance. I had to order mine from QLI directly. Due to distribution problems or business problems in general it doesn't look like they have a very robust ability to get the books to hobby stores.
daryen
SOC-14 1K
I didn't say it had market share, nor that it was a current RPG. I was merely saying that it was available.
I am quite sure "DnD hatred" is present in many Traveller players. (I would hesitate to say "common".) However it is not present in either myself. Nor is it in Bill, BTW.
Actually, I think most of the resistance you see with grognards toward T20 is not that. From what I have seen, there are two main issues.
The first is that they believe d20 is designed by, built for, and maintained to support munchkins. The grognard Traveller player doesn't feel more intelligent that the common munchkin; the grognard feels outright superior.
The second issue is the pathological hatred many players have to WotC. Since d20 is the WotC system, it is hated. If CT was published by WotC, it would be hated instead.
Not to take anything away from QLI, but I would have to say that SJG has done more to keep Traveller alive than anyone else in recent history. SJG has slowed down their Traveller support recently, so QLI does have a huge opportunity to pass them. But right now I would have to still give it to SJG.
M
Malenfant
Guest
Right here you just proved how little you know about the industry, or about D&D and d20. You are most certainly fully and completely incorrect in your statements.
You haven't played anything other than Traveller, have you?
First, nobody said that anything that isn't d20 based is doomed to suck and die. There are plenty of games that aren't d20 (World of Darkness, GURPS, etc) that are doing well for themselves - but they're doing well because their publishers understand what sells to people in the current market.
Second, you're coming off as a frothing maniac here with a major and totally irrational hate-on for d20.
You really don't have a bloody clue what you're talking about, you're so blinded by your d20 hate. I'm quite sure you'd hate T20 too. You're a great example of the sort of grognard that the Traveller community doesn't need.
M
Malenfant
Guest
All the more reason to drop the grognards then. Let them carry on playing CT in musty halls (and later retirement homes) with the same crowd they've played with for 25 years, the rest of us can carry on and take Traveller to the gaming conventions and make it more exciting and relevant and attract a new generation of players to it.
I mean, T20 is certainly not made or maintained to support munchkins. That's a blazing insult to the hard work that Hunter et al have put into it to make it resonate with CT players and yet bring it up to a current, very popular system.
Well that's nothing less than irrational brute stupidity really...
Both of them have done a great job, but I think SJG have done more to keep the game alive and have contributed more useful material to the line. QLI have done a good job keeping the oldies interested though with their adventures and PDF supplements. I just wish they had more hardcopies out...
For the record, the only D20 game I have any intention of playing* is Munchkin D20 from SJGames.
http://www.sjgames.com/munchkin/rpg/
For extra relevance, check this out:
http://www.sjgames.com/munchkin/rpg/starmunchkin/
Hmm... Maybe that's what T5 should be like...
---
*As opposed to buying. I would happily buy T20 if I could actually put my hands on a copy and hand over cash for it. And then I would use it as a CT supplement. Meh.
daryen
SOC-14 1K
From what I've gathered the reprints had a low print run to start with, and if they're selling to anyone then it's to collectors and people who already had Traveller as LBBs anyway or Traveller fans who missed it first time round.</font>[/QUOTE]Or, like me, Traveller fans who lost their LBBs and are too cheap to buy them individually on eBay.
Regardless, I didn't say the Reprints had a large market, or that they were reaching new gamers. I was merely pointing out that 1) it is indeed in print (for whatever reason) and 2) if the system sucked that bad, it wouldn't be viable as a print product.
Well before you have your bender on me, I would like to point out what I have said about T20:
- Levels are inappropriate for the Traveller setting.
- Apparently QLI agrees because they did everything short of removing them to eliminate their effect.
Other than that, I haven't said anything bad about T20 (and haven't really said anything bad about d20 in and of itself). How is that having a "bender"? (Actually, what is a "bender"?)
Also keep in mind that I agree with your assessment of the market. d20 owns the market; anything new is going to be a pathetically small niche player, and going to have to do something special to even be that successful.
Remeber: I am the one who has outright stated that I believe T5 is doomed to failure as it stands now. It is going to be rejected by both the new players and the grognards. It has no future, except to the completists.
At this point, all I am doing in this thread is pointing out what I actually did say, as opposed to what some people think I am saying, and to point out that I am not an idiot just because I happen to still like CT (among other systems).
I'm sorry, but we are dealing with somebody who apparently has never heard of Runequest, the Hero System, GURPS or any of the other systems that have been created during the last thirty years.
D20 is cleaner than earlier editions of DnD. Woo hoo. It's still a clunky first generation lashup.
CT, of course, is also first generation, but it doesn't have a fraction of the baggage. A modernised version of it could scrub up very nicely.
And the previous sentence was my original point, before all the geniuses started jumping in.
M
Malenfant
Guest
Oh, some print products have had REALLY sucky systems...
I thought I was pretty clear about this, but evidently not - my comment wasn't actually aimed at you.
And 'going off on a bender' is 'having a go at', or 'ranting about'.
There's nothing wrong with that, and to be clear again I haven't had any issues with what you've said at all. I'm just saying, one has to be realistic about things though (which you generally are).
daryen
SOC-14 1K
All the more reason to drop the grognards then. ...
I mean, T20 is certainly not made or maintained to support munchkins. That's a blazing insult to the hard work that Hunter et al have put into it to make it resonate with CT players and yet bring it up to a current, very popular system.</font>[/QUOTE]Notice I used "d20", not "T20". That was deliberate. T20 most definitely goes out of its way to handicap munchkin players. Even some T20 players have voiced such comments about d20.
Also, this attitude toward d20 is not unique to Traveller players. This is, from everything I can tell, a very deeply held view of many GURPS players. I am sure this is true elsewhere, too.
M
Malenfant
Guest
Who are you referring to? I've heard of them, heck I've played them.
NO IT ISN'T! Which bit of that are you failing to comprehend in your instant dismissal of the game? it's not a first generation lashup at all. Just about the only thing it shares with 'first generation' D&D are the classes and races and the fact that it has levels. Everything else is different, based on system innovations that have occurred over the past 25 years.
Get it through your thick skull that d20 is not a 'first generation' game. It isn't. Not even remotely.
It's got a lot of baggage. First, it's responsible for people still saying "oh Traveller, the game where you die in character generation? What kind of idiot thought that up?" Traveller still suffers that stigma today.
Thing is, CT is still available in that first generation format. Later versions of the game evolved it, but they're dismissed by the grognards as being irrelevant. Meanwhile, the original CT is there in all its glory for the modern RPGer to laugh at. D20 is an evolved D&D that people would actually want to play today. CT is just CT, and as such still primarily the domain of the 35-50 year olds, which is a miniscule portion of the market.
You mean 'before all the people who knew what they were talking about jumped in and told you where you were wrong'.
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