• Welcome to the new COTI server. We've moved the Citizens to a new server. Please let us know in the COTI Website issue forum if you find any problems.

The Grognard Problem

Originally posted by RickA:
Anyhow, does anyone, even the dedicated die hard grognards here think that Classic Traveller is a current RPG? That it has any detectable percentage of the RPG market? Or even the (much smaller) Sci Fi RPG market? It's not a game, it's a collectors item.
Collectors items may be games.

It has a detectable percentage. If scientists could detect the charge of the electron over a hundred years ago, I'm sure they can pick up the CT Traveller RPG industry share figures today.

What I'd like to hear is the T20 share of the market.

What I'd more like to hear are reasonable figures for the market share that will be grabbed by T5 . . . anybody?


Originally posted by RickA:
My comment about this 'forum' was in reference to the CotI, not this particular forum.
CotI is a message board hosting a variety of forums, but I understood what you meant.


Originally posted by RickA:
I've seen more T20 bashing on the CotI than I would have ever believed considering that the CotI is the QLI forums. Ah well, I suppose "DnD hatred" is a long standing habit with old Traveller players?
Nope. I've like both games in some incarnations, and not in other incarnations.


Originally posted by RickA:
Me, I like Traveller a lot, but to me, Traveller is not mechanics (dieing during character gen? LOL) but the setting and look/feel.
And that's the real rub, isn't it.

Because I keep hammering on the need to separate mechanics and setting.

In any event, Traveller has always been showcased by some large fractions of its mechanics, namely hardware design and worldbuilding.

Traveller is not Traveller at all without those "mechanics" (in whatever form they take).


Originally posted by RickA:
Having a set of mechanics you don't have to learn from scratch (d20 based for example) sure helps make the game more accessible.
I couldn't agree more.


Originally posted by RickA:
But, then again, if the game was accessible and popular the grognards wouldn't have their superior smug "I'm smart enough to play this game and no one else is" comfort zone I guess. /sigh/
I think that is an unfair comment. :(
 
Originally posted by alanb:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Malenfant:
RoS is right in his assessment that you quoted.
No he is not. His "assessment" is a product of illiteracy.
</font>[/QUOTE]A completely irrelevant comment designed to avoid answering the questions I posted.

There must have been no real answers.


Originally posted by alanb:
The only game in his universe is DnD/D20.
An unproven assumption on your part, and also another completely irrelevant comment that answers nothing and does not support your assertions.


Originally posted by alanb:
Apparently, all the other game designers in the last three decades never existed.
Apparently, all the ability to answer the questions I posted never existed.
 
Originally posted by alanb:
The argument is about something basically unrelated. According to a couple of "experts", any product that isn't D20 based is doomed to suck and die in the current RPG market.
No one said anything of the kind.


Originally posted by alanb:
That may well be true, except nobody asked their opinion in the first place.
And yet another completely irrelevant comment.


Originally posted by alanb:
Worse, one of these experts apparently believes that DnD/D20 and Traveller were the only roleplaying games ever published.
You're imagining things.
 
Originally posted by RickA:
Unfortunately there are very few hobby shops that carry QLI's Traveller game. There are three in the entire state of Texas, for instance. I had to order mine from QLI directly. Due to distribution problems or business problems in general it doesn't look like they have a very robust ability to get the books to hobby stores.
The whole RPG distributor system is, AFAICT, in a state of shambles, and has been for years. Most are largely incompetent and non-responsive to their customers, if various local game store owner comments and other comments I have heard from game companies at cons are anything to go by. They show favoritism and anyone not on their "good" list gets shorted whenever they feel like it.
 
Originally posted by alanb:
I'm sorry, but we are dealing with somebody who apparently has never heard of Runequest, the Hero System, GURPS or any of the other systems that have been created during the last thirty years.
Another completely irrelevant comment that proves nothing and does not support your assertions.


Originally posted by alanb:
D20 is cleaner than earlier editions of DnD.
Yes.


Originally posted by alanb:
It's still a clunky first generation lashup.
This is strictly your opinion so far. You have yet to answer my questions using cites from various games and making mechanics comparisons.


Originally posted by alanb:
CT, of course, is also first generation, but it doesn't have a fraction of the baggage.
It's true, there isn't much to the basic rules mechanics of CT. This is not necessarily a recommendation for excellence.


Originally posted by alanb:
A modernised version of it could scrub up very nicely.
That's what MT was, or what it was supposed to be.
 
Originally posted by RainOfSteel:
A completely irrelevant comment designed to avoid answering the questions I posted.
You didn't ask any questions. You merely changed the subject.

I was arguing that game design had improved over the past thirty years.

You "responded" with a lot of irrelevant stuff about DnD/D20.
 
Originally posted by alanb:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by RainOfSteel:
A completely irrelevant comment designed to avoid answering the questions I posted.
You didn't ask any questions. You merely changed the subject.

I was arguing that game design had improved over the past thirty years.

You "responded" with a lot of irrelevant stuff about DnD/D20.
</font>[/QUOTE]My opening remarks in Post 000094 were questions.

Thank you. I highly appreciate this revelation that you were not actually reading what I wrote.
 
Originally posted by RainOfSteel:
I highly appreciate this revelation that you were not actually reading what I wrote.
I ignored it because it was irrelevant. You were simply changing the subject. The details of that sidetrack are and were of no consequence.

This discussion has become entirely pointless.

I'm going to stop posting now for Hunter's sake.
 
It's Windows, QWERTY, rail gauges, IC engines, and every other example of 'industrial inertia' being played out in the RPG market and we all lose as our choices become more and more limited.
oh nonsense bill. the choices provided to us by others may become limited, and the herd thundering may follow, but anyone capable of running an rpg is capable of making one. it may not be comfortable, but the choices are there.
 
Originally posted by alanb:
I was arguing that game design had improved over the past thirty years.[/QB]
It has.

You however seem to have completely missed this happening, since you refuse to admit that d20 and D&D today is anything more than a 'first generation lashup', which is totally is not.
 
Originally posted by Bill Cameron:
Yes, if designed properly, the original system is best. Please note that I said 'if designed properly'.
Although you didn't ask, yes, I'd include CT in the list of games that would be better under d20.


So, the d20 version which doesn't fit the setting as well as the original version did will be bought because of the purchasers familiarity with d20.
Yes. And the idea is that this should hopefully draw the people to the actual original version of the game once they get tired of d20. This has happened in some cases.

I think what companies are doing now is to just have a wholly separate d20 line, and also to support their own systems. Or to dual-stat their books. Eden Studios for example has their own very successfull Buffy and Angel lines, along with Witchcraft and Armaggedon with their own Unisystem engine. They also have some d20 supplements out too.


The viscious circle is now complete. Because d20 dominates the market, most people are familiar with d20. And because most people are familair with d20 and because most people do not want to learn other RPG systems even if they are properly designed, most people will buy d20 versions of setting even if the d20 version is inferior to the original.
At first yes. But obviously a good conversion will try to keep the d20 version as close to the original as possible. T20 is a good example of this.


I wonder what will happen to Ars Magica when someone finally gets around to doing a d20 version? Or Call of Cthulu?
There is a d20 version of Call of Cthulhu. Didn't do too well though (largely because Lovecraft fans were too tied to the original probably), and there's been nothing beyond the corebook AFAIK.


It's Windows, QWERTY, rail gauges, IC engines, and every other example of 'industrial inertia' being played out in the RPG market and we all lose as our choices become more and more limited.
Sigh. Bill, Bill, Bill... you're a bit late to jump on this bandwagon. All this railing of how d20 was going to destroy roleplaying etc happened when it came out, years ago. Right now, things have settled into equilibrium, small press games are still coming out, innovation hasn't been stifled, d20 is still doing reasonably well, and things are stable. It's not the doom and gloom that everyone thought it was at first, there was just some reshuffling as the wheat were separated from the chaff.


Sadly, even if there was a well designed RPG system meant specifically for Traveller, people would still buy GURPS and d20 because they are too damn lazy to bother to learn anything else.
That's how things are. See, T5 can't possibly bring Traveller to more players than GURPS or d20 are doing. Which is why it's so pointless to bother doing it really.

Windows and Gates have arrived in the RPG market, boys. The rest of us better get used to living off the crumbs.
And as I said earlier, this is all old news to the rest of us. It's not a case of getting used to living off the crumbs, but you do have to get used to the new reality.
 
Originally posted by Malenfant:
At first yes. But obviously a good conversion will try to keep the d20 version as close to the original as possible. T20 is a good example of this.
Dr.Thomas,

I have T20 and, IMEHO, it is not an example of a good conversion.

In Traveller combat is deadly no matter who you are.

In T20 there is a bolt-on Lifeblood mechanic which is a clumsy attempt to replicate deadly combat for d20. It works, after a fashion, but feats and levels still make upper level players harder to hit and thus harder to kill.

In Traveller you trade age for experience, running the risk of failing the aging rolls that will reduce your physical characteristics in return for a few more skills. Each player makes a determination just where that min/max equation works for them and takes their chances accordingly.

In Traveller there is an actual, in-game cost for high skills.

In T20, you trade XP for experience, adding up the 'gongs' your GM 'awards' you for successfully accomplishing this and that during a each single adventure. Once you have enough, you can trade them in and make your character better having run no real in-game risks in the process. After all, how many GMs kill off PCs unless they acted truly stupidly?

In T20 you gain experience on the cheap and at no real cost to your character, like collecting tickets from the 'Whack-A-Mole" game at the local fun fair.

T20 is merely d20 kit bashed to resemble Traveller and the resemblence is skin deep.

Form follows function. Traveller and T20 have two very different forms so they function differently.

I also seriously doubt that playing a d20 version of an existing RPG setting will cause many players and GMs to investigate the setting's original RPG system. If they had been interested setting before, they would have checked out the system in the first place.

They most likely didn't for check out the original system for two reasons; that d20's Windows-like market dominance means that the original system can't be found on most FLGS's shelves and that they are just too damn lazy to be bothered to learn another RPG system even if it suits a setting they enjoy better than d20.

It's just people being people.


Have fun,
Bill
 
Originally posted by Bill Cameron:
I have T20 and, IMEHO, it is not an example of a good conversion.
It's not the best it could be, but I think that was mostly hampered by it trying to stick to CT. Chargen in T20 could be a lot simpler if you threw out that prior history stuff.

In T20 there is a bolt-on Lifeblood mechanic which is a clumsy attempt to replicate deadly combat for d20. It works, after a fashion, but feats and levels still make upper level players harder to hit and thus harder to kill.
The point being, it works. IIRC a high level player will still be just as likely to be downed by a lifeblood hit as a low level player (unless his Con is going up rapidly for some reason), it's just the stamina points that change.


In Traveller you trade age for experience, running the risk of failing the aging rolls that will reduce your physical characteristics in return for a few more skills. Each player makes a determination just where that min/max equation works for them and takes their chances accordingly.
Yes, and in CT you can die in chargen and end up with a randomly generated one-legged gimp cook who's no good for anything. Any alternative is better than that IMO.


In Traveller there is an actual, in-game cost for high skills.
Yes. A crumpled up character sheet and a player wondering why he wasted his time making a character that got killed or crippled in the generation process.


In T20, you trade XP for experience, adding up the 'gongs' your GM 'awards' you for successfully accomplishing this and that during a each single adventure. Once you have enough, you can trade them in and make your character better having run no real in-game risks in the process. After all, how many GMs kill off PCs unless they acted truly stupidly?
You'd be surprised at how many do.

And at least T20 has experience. CT didn't, IIRC.

In T20 you gain experience on the cheap and at no real cost to your character, like collecting tickets from the 'Whack-A-Mole" game at the local fun fair.
Erm, you get XP for doing stuff that is risky to your character. In T20, you still have a chance of not reenlisting or being booted in chargen, you just don't get killed in the process. There's still some element of risk involved, it's just that you have more choice over it.


T20 is merely d20 kit bashed to resemble Traveller and the resemblence is skin deep.
It's much more than skin deep. Most things in T20 were designed to emulate as well as possible. I'm sure Hunter would do things differently now though, and he has streamlined things considerably in the Guidebook playtest.


Form follows function. Traveller and T20 have two very different forms so they function differently.
But the end result is that you're still playing in the OTU. How you do that is pretty much irrelevant really. Pick which system out of the six you have available that you like best, or patch together your own, or convert it to another system. Either way, it's all the same universe.


I also seriously doubt that playing a d20 version of an existing RPG setting will cause many players and GMs to investigate the setting's original RPG system. If they had been interested setting before, they would have checked out the system in the first place.
People have been known to get bored with d20 you know...
 
preface: Wow... out 2 days for real life and getting into grad school, and the argument explodes. I'm addressing stuff as far back as page 4.

AD&D 2 and Feats: more properly, kit special abilities, and many of the weapon proficiencies in the Player's Option system are in fact precursors to the 3E feats.

Alternity and Feats: Special abilities purchased by some when requisite skill levels are had.

Task Systems:WEG-SW, 1987, had a task system. T2300, 1986, had a variant of the DGP-CT/MT task system. LUG-Trek & LUG-Dune, D-Trek, and D-LOTR are also Task based. RM/SM are right on the border between skill systems and task systems in the editions I have (pre 1995). Every WWG game has a task system. Lots of systems have coherent difficulty systems for their unified skill mechanic, and are arguably also task systems.

T20 and GT: They are not valid versions of traveller for the same reason that 3E isn't AD&D3: lack of mechanical similarities. Likewise, the complaints by Dragonlance Fans of the AD&D variety about DL5thAge... no mechanical relationship to AD&D, and thus invalidating all their characters, as well as destroying the setting. (Truth is W&H did that in the novels, and TSR used it as an excuse to launch a rather good game to a popular setting and not have to port all the D&D spells... but it failed for a number or reasons. It wasn't D&D, and so it didn't feel like DL to RPG fans, and the non RPG fan DL5A gamers were few)

GURPS works for some, but it has very non-traveller ways of doing a lot of things. the OTU setting could be properly ported to a GTU universe; the extant GT is neither very GURPS nor very Traveller-Mechanic, and is arguably not even terribly faithful to the Traveller-OTU. Characters are not inter-useable, nor easily convertible.

T20 is likewise not mechanically similar; a lot more effort was put in initially (and thus far less needed later) to remain as mechanically Traveller as D20 players could handle. Characters are incompatible.

TNE is only marginally character compatible, but uses a similar task system, the same atts (just add 1 to each), and roughly twice the skill levels as CT/MT.

MT is much more compatible; craft from one can be easily used in the other, albeit with a little effort. Characters are directly compatible, albeit with about 15% more skill levels, and thus hitting the Int+Edu limit.

One could see the mechanical and setting growth.

Even T4 shows clear mechanical relationships with TNE and CT.

Heck, 2300 is more compatible than GT, and about on par with T20, in terms of mechanics. And t2300/2300AD is NOT usually considered a traveller edition.

Also, few companies count ports to other systems as "Versions" for their version numbers. BTRC doesn't count the port of CORPS first ed setting to Active Exploits as a version number for CORPS.

Based upon Mal's argument, HeroTraveller needs to be counted, too...

T20 and D20
During the playtest, Hunter discussed with the playtesters the ideas of going to a less-level-based approach. Also discussed were 1 term=1 level, attribute based damage ala CT, realistic trade system versus fun trade system, etc. For better or worse, DrSkull, J-man, Myself, and a half dozen others made decisions based upon targeting D20 players. Even whether or not to go D20 vs OGL was discussed. Flat out, don't blame hunter for those decisions; we, the playtesters, guided his hand and like a good game designer should, Hunter Listened!

We were given three goals:
1) to attract D20 players to the Traveller game line.
2) to not alienate the grognards with the system
3) to keep it close enough to use CT non-character stuff.

On point 1: That killed term=level. THat also killed level-less, as no successful systems at the time (IE, none that any of us had seen commercially released) had done level-less OGL/D20.

On point 2: many of us were grogs... so we picked and kept what we could keep whole cloth, adapted some, "updated" a few to meet common fan-requests, and developed some of the D20 methodology away from stock to provide travelleresqe results.
Yes, you can drop HG ships into T20, and vice versa. The results will be similar, not identical. Yes, we exploded Bk1. It may be less realistic, but it is simple, fun, and playable, and allows one to, with a well developed crew, make a consistent profit by trade or spec, and if not by spec, then by the skin of the teeth. It feels right to me, and it works for play.

On point three: we wound up turning that one on its ear; large chunks of T20 are specifically designed so that a one page conversion guide (almost superfluous) would provide the conversion factors to use it in any other Mechanically-traveller ruleset.

Mechanics vs Setting By the time Traveller got competition worthy of the label, the OTU and the Rules were being seen as interrelated and nearly inseparable. By 1984, the setting was being hashed out, and expanded, not just in Traveller, but also in Striker, the Traveller board games, JTAS, adventures, supplements, and in fanzines.

Taking one without the other isn't fully traveller; likewise one could run a non-StarWars universe with the D20 SW rules, or Torg using Traveller, or Traveller using Torg/Shatterzone/masterbook, or whatever. the OTU has been adapted into at least a half dozen rulesets by various gamers, even before GT was announced: CORPS, GURPS (preGT), Interlock (CP2020/Mekton), 2300, AD&D, Hero, FUDGE, Masterbook, WWG's StoryTeller, Space Opera, and BRP.

The setting has always been separable from the rules since the 1975 release of Tunnels and Trolls; it doesn't mean that it should be separated. Of course, D&D developed into several official settings and innumerable unofficial ones; T&T still has one much looser official one. Traveller has had one, arguably two (PreAtlas and PostAtlas) settings as "official" and scads of unofficial ones, and as the setting became detailed enough, it was adapted to whatever fancy suited the GM.

But NONE of that invalidates the need to have some form of official setting assumptions, even if not a full blown setting. Traveller is best defined by these assumptions: Jump Drive, no FTL-comms, excessive habitable worlds, artificial gravity, and adventurers who are basically different from Joe Normal only in deciding not to retire, but to seek fame and fortune amongst the stars. Those elements are enshrined in the CT, MT, TNE, and T4 rules. One of these is actually directly counter to GURPS: that adventurers differ ONLY in motivation; GURPS implicitly states that normals are 25 point characters (3rd ed revised).

2300 is not considered a traveller setting because it DOESN'T adhere to those same assumptions. Instead, they have Sttutterwarp, no AG save spin, no FTL, and again, adventurers differ mostly in motivation.

This is counter to it's competition: Space Opera gives PC's explicit bonuses for being PC's. GURPS is built upon the assumption that normals are in fact less capable than PC's and significant NPC's. AD&D says normals are Level-0, and PC's start better; it does have a lot more implied "PC-type" characters.

I can see Traveller without the OTU, but I can't see OTU without the enshrined assumptions about PC's; the other assumptions had to be patched somewhat for Traveller Ports.
 
Originally posted by Malenfant:
Yes. A crumpled up character sheet and a player wondering why he wasted his time making a character that got killed or crippled in the generation process.
Dr. Thomas,

It's time to lay that old chestnut to rest. Both and you RickA have flung it about enough in this thread.

Death in chargen existed in first edition CT. It was merely an option after that and, by the time of MT, a failed survival roll in both basic and advanced chargen simply equated a shortened two term.

Death in chargen ended in Traveller over twenty years ago. Let it drop. No one here is flogging d20 over the various peculiarities of 1970s D&D 1e. Negative armor classes anyone?

And at least T20 has experience. CT didn't, IIRC.
You recall wrong. It's in LBB:2. Of course it must role-played and it takes time. Again, trading age and the risk of aging rolls for experience. You don't simply add up XP points until you reach the next level.

Erm, you get XP for doing stuff that is risky to your character.
Not in the Epics I've read. Let me quote you a bit from EA1:The Forgotten War;

The Referee decides that the adventure was carried by Alice, Bob, and Candy, and that Dave's contribution was relatively minor. However Act 3 was a big one and Dave not only made his character useful but also got involved in the role-playing. She decides that the experience Dave got from the two Acts he was actually present for is enough of an award and awards the overall adventure experience among the three main charecters.

There's a lot more, a column and 3/4ths on Page six with another 1/3rd of a column on Page 7. All of it deals with divvying up the 'gongs'. It is suggested that the GM give more 'gongs' to active players and several paragraphs go into the math of splitting up 'adventure' points and 'scene' points among the screaming munchkins, much like cutting the cake at a kiddie party. However, you get still points, just as Dave did, just for having a pulse and sitting at the table.

Sit long enough, stay awake, and the points will add up.

... you just don't get killed in the process.
See my first three paragraphs above.

But the end result is that you're still playing in the OTU. How you do that is pretty much irrelevant really. Pick which system out of the six you have available that you like best, or patch together your own, or convert it to another system. Either way, it's all the same universe.
The same setting true but one with a functionally different RPG system. No system used for Traveller had any play mechanics like XP points and levels until T20.

T20 plays differently, just ask Dave. He's now a Level 4 merchant with some neat feats just because he has a pulse. He's also harder to hit in combat now and thus harder to kill.


People have been known to get bored with d20 you know...
Well, good luck finding another system with nothing but d20 clogging the shelves. I guess they'll have to become collectors early. eBay is going to love it.


Have fun,
Bill
 
Originally posted by Malenfant:
There is a d20 version of Call of Cthulhu. Didn't do too well though (largely because Lovecraft fans were too tied to the original probably), and there's been nothing beyond the corebook AFAIK.
It sold well enough, esp. compared to what’s a likely Chaosium print runs these days, but with the initial print run(s) exhausted by WotC it reverted to Chaosium who dual-statted some books for a while and keep the core book reprinted in an inferior edition but never did anything more. Pulp Cthulhu for example could have been a great bridge product but if it ever comes out it will be BRP only. There's Adventure! d20 and Modern d20 went the route of mostly D&D with guns. :(

In other words WotC designed and released a solid modern day horror (Mythos) game and Chaosium dropped the ball. The book is a good combination of design and readability and fits the genre. I still prefer BRP myself* by far but CoCd20 has some neat and deadly rules for d20 and better campaign advice than you'll find in BRP CoC and that's saying a lot. IIRC it's the first appearance of the three archetype class structure similar to BlueRose/Trued20 and also appearing in Unearthed Arcana. I’d run either version if asked and with the d20 version I’d have a lot of creatures and stuff that aren’t in the Mythos all ready to go to break up the Mythos some.

I really like some of Chaosium's best work but they're mostly intent on reprint/revising old classics. Fine and well and it's good to be able to get them if I don't have them but at some point that runs out. They have had some good new works recently though and I'm looking forward to the deluxe BRP book.

* BRP is about ideal in terms of simplicity and detail for me
 
Originally posted by Aramis:
T20 and GT: They are not valid versions of traveller for the same reason that 3E isn't AD&D3: lack of mechanical similarities.
Traveller is best defined by these assumptions: Jump Drive, no FTL-comms, excessive habitable worlds, artificial gravity, and adventurers who are basically different from Joe Normal only in deciding not to retire, but to seek fame and fortune amongst the stars.
One of these is actually directly counter to GURPS: that adventurers differ ONLY in motivation; GURPS implicitly states that normals are 25 point characters (3rd ed revised).
I can see Traveller without the OTU, but I can't see OTU without the enshrined assumptions about PC's; the other assumptions had to be patched somewhat for Traveller Ports.
Gents,

Well that should settle it once and for all.

Wil did help write T20 after all. If he says T20 isn't a valid version of Traveller, you have to listen.

I'd forgotten about the PC/NPC divide in some other RPG systems. It doesn't exist in Traveller, your PC is the pretty much the same as everyone else. It's his attitude that sets him apart.


Have fun,
Bill
 
My opinion on CT+ is the various factions of CT fandom won’t be able to be satisfied enough to abandon whatever houseruled homebrew they’re put together by now in significant numbers unless it’s a modular set with switches which defeats the purpose. T5 is similar in result except add in *all* Traveller otaku and potential newbies. While T4 was *almost* there in concept for my ideal Traveller set the reality burned me off of Traveller until T20 and I doubt I’ll buy T5. It’d have to be some perfect book that really isn’t possible IMO.

As for other new editions, I'm liking WFRP 2nd a lot rules-wise and the new Tekumel:Empire of the Petal Throne is the best BESM variant out there (I just need to hammer out spell costs >.<) and a good playable out of the core book version of the setting that suits the setting*. OTOH Call of Cthulhu 3rd and 5th suit me fine with no need to buy what are essentially dolled up reprints. :eek: I am interested in what Mongoose Runequest (updated BRP?) will be like though I am equally interested in Chaosium's Deluxe BRP rules compilation. Oh and for the [A][O]D&D vs 3E bit, take a look at Castles & Crusades. In many ways it's a best of all breeds and can be used/tweaked with bits from any edition.

Oh and for the [A][O]D&D vs 3E bit, take a look at Castles & Crusades. In many ways it's a best of all breeds and can be used/tweaked with bits from any edition.
file_23.gif
I view OD&D and CT as being similar in many ways, playable out of the box for a limited subset but after that it’s bolt on, replace, houserule, and fiat. All good and well but Risus does similar for free and is more streamlined and unified. ^_^ No weapon interaction matrixes for one thing!

In the end the play's the thing. Game what you will.


* Tekumel is close to Traveller in versions: Empire of the Petal Throne (OD&D variant; good for its time and still has some neat bits and art), Swords & Glory, Gardásiyal (related in some ways to S&G), and now Tekumel: Empire of the Petal Throne. If you count the various published / revealed versions of Professor Barker’s own rules (either diceless or roll a 1d10, high is good, low is bad; done!), Sandy Peterson’s Runequest Tekumel, and at least one system by a member of Barker’s groups you’re very close (I’m not including various conversions like Gurps Tekumel). At least five publishers, more if you count supplements.

The setting and spell lists are about the only things that don’t change between versions. So what’s the “real” Tekumel? As Barker himself wrote: “-but we cannot keep your Tekumel from drifting away from mine. This is as it should be. You have just bought MY Tekumel. Now make it YOUR Tekumel.” (Swords & Glory vol. 1 p. 2)
 
Originally posted by Bill Cameron:
Well that should settle it once and for all.

Wil did help write T20 after all. If he says T20 isn't a valid version of Traveller, you have to listen.
<snip>

Have fun
Well in that case I guess I'm not playing Traveller these days and Hunter and Steve Jackson should send their licenses back to MWM and save themselves some cash 'cos they aren't making valid Traveller. :rolleyes:

I'll have fun but it won't be in Traveller it seems.

[edit]added emphasis[/edit]
 
Back
Top