The Imperial Corridor Fleet

[tjoneslo]

In the Rebellion Sourcebook, (p. 26) there is a map which lays out where each of the numbered fleets are in the Imperium.

Then on pg. 27, the text goes on to describe the composition of the fleets. It includes the following:

The Imperial Corridor Fleet (appropriately stationed in Corridor sector) is composed of the Imperial 16th, 27th, 41st, and 70th Fleets.

Now the map on p. 26 has Corridor sector with the full complement of 16 fleets (crammed into 8 subsectors). None of which are the fleets named above. So does this mean that Corridor has 20 fleets stationed there?

If you read through the map, the 16th, 27th, and 70th fleets are all from Fornast sector, and the 41st is from Zarushagar sector. Now are these duplicate numbered fleets? Or did the subsector dukes piss off the Emperor at some point, and he send their fleets (from the settled core of the Imperium) to reinforce that thin border in Corridor and help with the fight against the Zhodani? And if so, when?

Based upon the descriptions of the Fourth Frontier war, it seems likely that the fleets were moved shortly after the war as part of the strategic changes.

Assuming this is true, why those fleets?

 

[Drakon]

In the Rebellion Sourcebook, (p. 26) there is a map which lays out where each of the numbered fleets are in the Imperium.

...

If you read through the map, the 16th, 27th, and 70th fleets are all from Fornast sector, and the 41st is from Zarushagar sector. Now are these duplicate numbered fleets? Or did the subsector dukes piss off the Emperor at some point, and he send their fleets (from the settled core of the Imperium) to reinforce that thin border in Corridor and help with the fight against the Zhodani? And if so, when?

Based upon the descriptions of the Fourth Frontier war, it seems likely that the fleets were moved shortly after the war as part of the strategic changes.

Assuming this is true, why those fleets?

Off top of my head, militarily, they were originally the safest subsectors in the Imperium, with less for those fleets to do at home. Between Vargr invaders coreward and whatever banditry is in two central imperium sector, the fleet goes where the need is.

I suspect the Zhos are using the Vargr as shock troops/cannon fodder, so using any of the Coreward or Spinward fleets would be out of the question.

This adds an interesting twist to the Rebellion. If you have four fleets stuck hundreds of parsecs from home, defending the border, then suddenly ripped out of that job to get in the middle of squabbling aristocrats, that could prove problematic. Timing would be an issue, if the fleets were moved shortly after the 4th war, by the time of the rebellion 36 years later, all the grognards would have retired out, and all the new recruits would be from Corridor sector, (maybe Deneb and Vland as well).

Assuming the information is correct, I suspect the fleets would be homeported at Depot in the Corridor sector, although probably patroling the coreward borders with the regular subsector fleets.

Alternately, 4 fleets, 4 coreward subsectors, the duke may deploy an additional fleet each subsector.

I say "assuming" because after deployment, those fleets should be replaced. Especially in the intervening years between the 4th war, and the Rebellion. And those new fleet numbers should be logged onto the map.

 

[rancke]

Now the map on p. 26 has Corridor sector with the full complement of 16 fleets (crammed into 8 subsectors). None of which are the fleets named above. So does this mean that Corridor has 20 fleets stationed there?

I'd say so, yes.

If you read through the map, the 16th, 27th, and 70th fleets are all from Fornast sector, and the 41st is from Zarushagar sector. Now are these duplicate numbered fleets?

Presumably they're duplicates. There's a 16th Fleet in Corridor and a different 16th Fleet in Cirqa (Fornast A). There are a number of other duplicates; there are two each 108th, 128th, 179th, 193th, 212th, 214th, 255th, and 260th fleets. There are three 213th fleets!!

Based upon the descriptions of the Fourth Frontier war, it seems likely that the fleets were moved shortly after the war as part of the strategic changes.

Could be. Or the strategic changes might have been confined to transfers of squadrons. The Imperium may have a policy of shifting fleets around fairly frequently to avoid them getting too ttached to the locals. Though the position of the low-numberd fleets suggests that they at least have been where they are in 1116 since the Dawn of the Imperium (1-4 covers Core subsector and three neighboring subsectors, the next several numbers could reflect a time when a fleet covered half a sector each).

Assuming this is true, why those fleets?

It does seem statistically significant that all four of the Corridor (reaction) Fleet are duplicated, but I can't think of a good explanation why.

Incidentally, there are some fleet numbers that are missing. There are no 77th, 118th, 131st, 189th, 256th, 274th, 303rd, 315th, 316th, 317th, 318th, 319th, and 320th (shown on the map).

My take is that the duplicate fleet numbers are down to the parties of the Civil War having duplicated fleet numbers and that the missing numbers are temporarily deactivated fleets (the way the 100th Fleet must have been deactivated prior to the 5FW). Some of them may be permanently deactivated due to some great disgrace.


Hans

 

[Drakon]

My take is that the duplicate fleet numbers are down to the parties of the Civil War having duplicated fleet numbers and that the missing numbers are temporarily deactivated fleets (the way the 100th Fleet must have been deactivated prior to the 5FW). Some of them may be permanently deactivated due to some great disgrace.


Hans

Or possibly you had fleets splitting during the rebellion, both sides calling themselves the "Real 16th Fleet". Immediately after the split, each fleet builds up enough replacements to fill out.

As for the Corridor Reaction Fleet, when you called it that, it gave me an idea. Perhaps those are the fleet numbers we told the Vargr? The numbers are duplicates to sow confusion in Vargr/Zhodani intelligence.

 

[rancke]

Assuming that the 16 fleets in the regular Corridor Fleet are actually needed to keep the Vargr at bay^*, the four other fleets would be slated to be the reinforcements that are sent to support the Spinward Marches in the event of a new Zhodani attack.

^* Which I'm afraid I consider completely silly, given the basic description of Vargr social dynamics, but that's by the way. Canon history does show Corridor collapsing when the fleets are removed. :nonono:​

Hans

 

[rancke]

Or possibly you had fleets splitting during the rebellion, both sides calling themselves the "Real 16th Fleet". Immediately after the split, each fleet builds up enough replacements to fill out.

The map shows fleet positions prior to the start of the Rebellion.


Hans

 

[Drakon]

Assuming that the 16 fleets in the regular Corridor Fleet are actually needed to keep the Vargr at bay^*, the four other fleets would be slated to be the reinforcements that are sent to support the Spinward Marches in the event of a new Zhodani attack.

^* Which I'm afraid I consider completely silly, given the basic description of Vargr social dynamics, but that's by the way. Canon history does show Corridor collapsing when the fleets are removed. :nonono:​

Hans

You do not believe that a sufficiently charismatic Vargr could lead his people to wrest their rightful, Grandfather given destiny from the pinkskins and rule the galaxy? I suspect the Vargr's more chaotic approach to combat would require additional resources.

 

[rancke]

You do not believe that a sufficiently charismatic Vargr could lead his people to wrest their rightful, Grandfather given destiny from the pinkskins and rule the galaxy?

No more than I believe that a sufficiently charismatic Vargr could inspire a follower to lift a 50,000T boulder^*.

^* In a standard gravity field.​

Hans

 

[robject]

No more than I believe that a sufficiently charismatic Vargr could inspire a follower to lift a 50,000T boulder^*.

^* In a standard gravity field.​

Hans

I know I'm going to regret this, but I want to see where you go with this.

How do you view the Vargr Extents? Empty space that was colonized by vargr, and therefore not conquered by vargr, I guess?

And, more fundamentally, would you say charisma is therefore no substitute for actual social standing, since it is incapable of the level of organization required for successful warfare? Is it like the Kzinti's way of doing things, who always strike before they are ready, or a similar sort of fatal flaw that dooms them to defeat against a prepared foe?

 

[rancke]

How do you view the Vargr Extents? Empty space that was colonized by vargr, and therefore not conquered by vargr, I guess?

You guess wrong. It's not a question of being incapable of conquering neighbors in your own weight class. It's a question of being incapable of conquering big organized states on the OTHER side of your neighbors.

To conquer any part of Corridor supported by an Imperium not distracted by a major rebellion or suchlike, a Vargr would need to organize a force capable of defeating the planetary and subsector forces of Corridor PLUS whatever reinforcements the Imperial core can come up with. I don't see that as a realistic achievement.

And, more fundamentally, would you say charisma is therefore no substitute for actual social standing, since it is incapable of the level of organization required for successful warfare? Is it like the Kzinti's way of doing things, who always strike before they are ready, or a similar sort of fatal flaw that dooms them to defeat against a prepared foe?

The fatal flaw is the lack of incentive for a Vargr government to build a big expensive invasion fleet and then give it to an admiral and tell him to go conquer some more taxpayers for the government. Seeing as the result is most likely to be a letter of thanks from their former admiral once he has conquered a nice little pocket empire for himself.


Hans

 

[Condottiere]

That would also be a strategic disaster if either deliberately or by accident, the enemy destroyed the flagship.

 

[tjoneslo]

Presumably they're duplicates. There's a 16th Fleet in Corridor and a different 16th Fleet in Cirqa (Fornast A). There are a number of other duplicates; there are two each 108th, 128th, 179th, 193th, 212th, 214th, 255th, and 260th fleets. There are three 213th fleets!!

Incidentally, there are some fleet numbers that are missing. There are no 77th, 118th, 131st, 189th, 256th, 274th, 303rd, 315th, 316th, 317th, 318th, 319th, and 320th (shown on the map).

If I count correctly there are 10 duplicate fleets on the map (plus the 4 Corridor fleets), and 13 missing fleets, meaning there are 321 fleets in the Imperium.

The two 108th fleets are in Old Expanses right next to each other.
The two 179th fleets are in Ilelish (L) and Ilelish (F)

These two are probably typos on the map. The Old Expanses could be 108th and 118th fleets, the Ilelish fleets should also be different.

The two 193rd fleets are in Spinward Marches and Deneb
The two 214th fleets are in Spinward Marches and Corridor
The three 213rd fleets are in Spinward Marches, Deneb, and Corridor.

These 7 fleets are caught in the constant flux of the changing Naval strategies behind the claw, and are probably in both (or all three) places at the same time. So we have 3 fleets moving Spinward through Corridor into the Marches.

The two 212nd fleets are in Spinward Marches and Vland
The two 255th fleets are in Corridor and Lishun
The two 260th fleets are in Deneb and Antares

These, along with four Corridor (reaction) fleets are probably also influx from the changes enforced by the naval changes in the Marches. So to replace the three fleets moving into the Marches, the Imperium is moving 8 fleets into the area from other places in the Imperium.

The two 128th fleets are in Delphi (L) and Reft (E).

This is the odd one, and I suspect another map typo

Moving a fleet isn't, at the best of times, a quick thing to do. In the relative peace of the Imperium in 1116, the process may take a decade or more. The process probably started with the Fourth Frontier war and accelerated with the Fifth (completed in 1110). So six years later we still have fleets on the move, but the map not entirely updated correctly.

The question is, does the fleet that is moving get renumbered, or does the home subsector get a new number for their fleet.

 

[rancke]

If I count correctly there are 10 duplicate fleets on the map (plus the 4 Corridor fleets), and 13 missing fleets, meaning there are 321 fleets in the Imperium.

The two 108th fleets are in Old Expanses right next to each other.
The two 179th fleets are in Ilelish (L) and Ilelish (F)

These two are probably typos on the map. The Old Expanses could be 108th and 118th fleets, the Ilelish fleets should also be different.

I don't see any need for assuming that. The Roman Empire had both duplicate legions and missing legion numbers, all the result of historical events. Probably fleets have additional designations that allows differentiation. Either Xth Fleet <subsector> vs. Xth Fleet <another subsector> or Xth Fleet Victorious vs. Xth Fleet Glorious or something like that.

The two 193rd fleets are in Spinward Marches and Deneb
The two 214th fleets are in Spinward Marches and Corridor
The three 213rd fleets are in Spinward Marches, Deneb, and Corridor.

These 7 fleets are caught in the constant flux of the changing Naval strategies behind the claw, and are probably in both (or all three) places at the same time. So we have 4 fleets moving Spinward through Corridor into the Marches.

That would mean three missing fleets. It's one fleet per subsector, not four fleets for seven subsectlrs.

The two 212nd fleets are in Spinward Marches and Vland
The two 255th fleets are in Corridor and Lishun
The two 260th fleets are in Deneb and Antares

These, along with four Corridor (reaction) fleets are probably also influx from the changes enforced by the naval changes in the Marches. So to replace the four fleets moving into the Marches, the Imperium is moving 8 fleets into the area from other places in the Imperium.

The two 128th fleets are in Delphi (L) and Reft (E).

This is the odd one, and I suspect another map typo

Same objection.

Moving a fleet isn't, at the best of times, a quick thing to do. In the relative peace of the Imperium in 1116, the process may take a decade or more.

I don't see why. A couple of years, perhaps, but not a full decade.

The process probably started with the Fourth Frontier war and accelerated with the Fifth (completed in 1110). So six years later we still have fleets on the move, but the map not entirely updated correctly.

That's not what the map legend says. It says that those are the assignments as of 1116. One 212th Fleet assigned to Jewell subsector and a 212th Fleet assigned to Nulisud Subsector and similarly for all the other duplicated fleet numbers. If the 212th was in the process of moving from Jewell to Nulisud (just a few years after having been moved from Rhylanor to Jewell ), then it would be assigned to Nulisud and some other fleet would be assigned to Jewell, even if they hadn't moved yet.

You're complicating things needlessly.

The question is, does the fleet that is moving get renumbered, or does the home subsector get a new number for their fleet.

We know some subsectors in the Spinward Marches that got new fleet numbers between 1111 and 1116.


Hans

 

[LeperColony]

My take is that the duplicate fleet numbers are down to the parties of the Civil War having duplicated fleet numbers and that the missing numbers are temporarily deactivated fleets (the way the 100th Fleet must have been deactivated prior to the 5FW). Some of them may be permanently deactivated due to some great disgrace.


Hans

That's a good solution. It could also be that some units were raised to Imperial fleets in recognition of service, so that the unit designation is Fleet X (Provisional/Colonial/whatever) but it's actually a frontline Imperial fleet.

They could also be paper fleets with administrative functions but no real units or simple attempts at misdirection.

 

[Rabbit 3]

They could also be paper fleets with administrative functions but no real units or simple attempts at misdirection.

Or perhaps somebody high up in the bureaucracy has been siphoning off the maintenance budget into a private unlisted account?

 

[tjoneslo]

I don't see any need for assuming that. The Roman Empire had both duplicate legions and missing legion numbers, all the result of historical events. Probably fleets have additional designations that allows differentiation. Either Xth Fleet <subsector> vs. Xth Fleet <another subsector> or Xth Fleet Victorious vs. Xth Fleet Glorious or something like that.

Yes, but we're dealing with computerized records combined with the Vilani desire for bureaucratic order.

Of the 27 fleets, 14 are located in the Marches, Deneb, or Corridor. If we really were dealing with simple historical accidents or Archdukes sabre rattling, the duplicates should be more randomly scattered throughout the Imperium.

While it's more complex, there is a pattern there.

Plus we know Strephon is aware the Zhodani are getting jumpy. The longbow project has shown something going on. The Imperial have to have at least a minor spy network in the Consolate and an even larger effort in the Vargr extents. There is no way to keep something with as great an impact as the Empress Wave quiet. Especially since the coreward edge of the Extents are coming under the effects of the wave as well as the Consolate.

So how does Strephon move enough fleet elements into the region to protect against an unknown, but possibly violent, reaction from the Zhodani without causing a similar panic in the Imperium.

Moving a fleet isn't, at the best of times, a quick thing to do. In the relative peace of the Imperium in 1116, the process may take a decade or more.

I don't see why. A couple of years, perhaps, but not a full decade.

In order to have historical events in the Imperium makes sense to me I apply a factor of 5 (divide or multiply) to the years. So what would make sense to take two or three years takes (in Imperial years) 10 to 15.

 

[rancke]

Yes, but we're dealing with computerized records combined with the Vilani desire for bureaucratic order.

I don't think we are, at least not to an extent that would prevent duplicate and missing fleet numbers.

Of the 27 fleets, 14 are located in the Marches, Deneb, or Corridor. If we really were dealing with simple historical accidents or Archdukes sabre rattling, the duplicates should be more randomly scattered throughout the Imperium.

Low-probability events do occur. And even if the distribution is not down to sheer random chance, it doesn't mean that any explanation will do. You need one that sticks to established facts.

While it's more complex, there is a pattern there.

If you can find a pattern that doesn't contradict established facts then by all means do so. Otherwise I'm going to stick to random chance as the explanation.

Plus we know Strephon is aware the Zhodani are getting jumpy. The longbow project has shown something going on. The Imperial have to have at least a minor spy network in the Consolate and an even larger effort in the Vargr extents. There is no way to keep something with as great an impact as the Empress Wave quiet. Especially since the coreward edge of the Extents are coming under the effects of the wave as well as the Consolate.

So how does Strephon move enough fleet elements into the region to protect against an unknown, but possibly violent, reaction from the Zhodani without causing a similar panic in the Imperium.

How indeed? It would have to be a way that didn't scream "there's something funny going on here" to every amateur military enthusiast in Charted Space.

And it would have to be a way that provided maintenance and logistical support for the additional fleet elements without anyone noticing the increased activity.

If you ask me, it can't be done.

In order to have historical events in the Imperium makes sense to me I apply a factor of 5 (divide or multiply) to the years. So what would make sense to take two or three years takes (in Imperial years) 10 to 15.

I don't see how making current affairs five times too slow explains anything. It just extends the oddities of history to contemporary affairs. IMO, an explanation that introduces another puzzle is no explanation at all.

(Mind you, if you can persuade Marc Miller to compress the history of the Imperium by a factor five, you won't hear me objecting).


Hans

 

[Dagrill]

The fatal flaw is the lack of incentive for a Vargr government to build a big expensive invasion fleet and then give it to an admiral and tell him to go conquer some more taxpayers for the government. Seeing as the result is most likely to be a letter of thanks from their former admiral once he has conquered a nice little pocket empire for himself.
Hans

This is my take on the Vargr as well, seeing as how the Admiral must be almost as Charismatic as the planetary leader to lead the fleet.

It seems assassination would be the best way of dealing with Vargr threats as well, take out the leader and the rest start squabbling amongst themselves, which sounds rather like humaniti in the rebellion...

regards

David

 

[Dagrill]

In order to have historical events in the Imperium makes sense to me I apply a factor of 5 (divide or multiply) to the years. So what would make sense to take two or three years takes (in Imperial years) 10 to 15.

This seems exceedingly long, whilst the 4FW was over before the imperium reacted, that only lasted the period of communications delay, besides communications I suppose you have to move the Fleet base, partners and children as well, I still think a decade is remarkably excessive, you could have lost a couple of sectors if that's your reaction time,

regards

David

 

[McPerth]

Of the 27 fleets, 14 are located in the Marches, Deneb, or Corridor. If we really were dealing with simple historical accidents or Archdukes sabre rattling, the duplicates should be more randomly scattered throughout the Imperium.

If most of them are from behind the claw, could not be posible the original fleets have been divided (either to send reinforcements to the Marches on the Frontier Wars or when the Aldmirals of the Marches marched to Capital at the begining and end of the Civil war), and both portions retained the fleet number when reinforced latter?

Other fleets could also have been divided in other crisis (solomani war, Ilelish Revolt, etc...) and had the same fate, accounting for the rest of duplicated fleets.

In this case, both same numbered fleet would claim they are the original one, and even some form of rivaltry might have developed (color/adventure material here) :devil: