LeperColony
Traveller Card Game Dev Team
I could be remembering incorrectly, but doesn't FSotSI give an exact number of fleets, including the fast reaction fleets at Capitol?
The Imperial Corridor Fleet
- Thread starter tjoneslo
- Start date
I could be remembering incorrectly, but doesn't FSotSI give an exact number of fleets, including the fast reaction fleets at Capitol?
Drakon
SOC-14 1K
Sending a fleet out means sending potential rivals to what is either their doom, if they fail, or somewhere else if they succeed. Whether the home government gets new taxpayers or not, rivals to the sitting government are either dead or dealing with their own hassles involved in governing the newly conquered territories.
This assumes the Vargr are acting of their own accord and no outside forces are trying to manipulate the Vargr for their own designs.
There has got to be cheaper ways of dealing with most rivals than to spend many trillions of credits on sending them away. And if they're that dangerous already, it's probably not a good idea to furnish them with a fleet capable of conquering all the defense forces of Corridor Sector.
Hans
As in one (or more) of Grandfather's children that weren't killed in the final war?
Regards
David
No. As in something no one would be able to do without brainwashing an entire sector's worth of Vargr into behaving like non-Vargr.
Hans
The Rebellion Sourcebook does as well, but leaves the "about 320 fleets" in the text on page 27. So in addition to the one numbered fleet per subsector there are 8 fleets, four in the Corridor reaction fleet (somewhere in Corridor sector), and four in the Core reaction fleet (at Capital).
I'll check FSotSI when I get home to verify, but I think the two books simply reflect the same text.
Drakon
SOC-14 1K
1) I am referring to politically danger, rather than physically danger to whatever ruling party is running the particular area of the Vargr expanse. Coupled with "Church of the Chosen" ideology, failure to support a charismatic leader who wants to conquer those darn pinkies, and exert the Vargr's rightful place can be a bigger political risk than him turning on you with the fleet you so generously gave him.
Killing a popular political rival might not be the best option.
2) Who said anything about giving him enough of a fleet to conquer all of Corridor? Give him enough to take a few systems. Let him harass and challenge the Imperium. Let him see what it is like trying to rule conquered pinkies. Let him get killed by the Imperials. While he is doing that, he is not causing you problems at home, which is one primary concern above and beyond what he accomplishes.
If he fails, he dies a hero to the cause, a hero you tried to support and help, putting you on the side of angels. Politically, dead heroes are less problematic than live ones. If he succeeds, he may pay you back for the fleet, but even if he doesn't he is going to have his hands full hanging on to his new conquests.
3) Sophants are not rational animals, they are animals with the ability to use reason and logic. The use of reason and logic is a choice, just as the use of emotion or religious teachings as a means of determining one's actions is a choice. Even if you don't see the rationale for attacking Corridor, does not mean it won't be done. The sanity of a plan is irrelevant if one has the means and determination to implement.
*4) the spelling checker on this site does not recognize the words Vargr or Sophants. Is there a way to fix that?
Drakon
SOC-14 1K
You don't have to go that far. Who could psionically mind control a Vargr? You don't need to control all Vargr, just a few important leaders. Being a charisma based culture can be useful.
I have a TNE/T20 campaign setting in my favorite sector, Corridor. These fleets are not duplicates. It's fleet naming conventions that are very confusing.
The 70th for example is the 70th Security Fleet and the issue is with Sectors that have Depots. Depots require additional support. There is a mothball fleet and training fleet. What appears like duplicates would be numbered subsector fleets are surely numbered subsector fleets.
Sector Duke is Criston Rehman of Kaasu during the MT invasion. I actually created his daughter as an NPC in my TNE campaign. He was reported assassinated by nuke on Ashima as he tried to re-group the remaining fleet elements.
Marquis Jan Rehman, his brother, assumed control on Kaasu under the occupation. It was assumed by Jan's wife, Amyla, that he was in league with the Vargr to keep his Fief (per Digest Group). This is why we need a republish of DG magazines.
I should also mention that the Corridor invasion was a "free for all" assault. The 3I was the Charismatic regional leader who fell into Rebellion. The client Vargr states we're without a choice but join in with the attacking states. Some captains even offered to fight for 3I worlds in exchange for power, charisma on that planet. My primary argument was with The Vaenggvae formerly with the Glory of Taarskoerzn bringing down Depot with only 500 ships. Either way, the Fall of Corridor was complete Anarchy.
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Drakon
SOC-14 1K
This has been my biggest handicap is finding any of the DG stuff on Corridor.
Was Criston duke in 1105 (I want a bit of a head start before the rebellion
)It seems to me that the Japanese took out Pearl Harbor with a much smaller fleet. Fanaticism and strategy can go a long way.
This has been my biggest handicap is finding any of the DG stuff on Corridor.
Was Criston duke in 1105 (I want a bit of a head start before the rebellion
It seems to me that the Japanese took out Pearl Harbor with a much smaller fleet. Fanaticism and strategy can go a long way.
There is a high probability that he was and that it was hereditary. The Duke was very popular and well known. But there is no information on his reign.
Remember, part of the fleet was pulled by Lucan to Core. This is an important fact in the collapse and lack of Vargr fear of the Charismatic 3I.
Pearl Harbor was a sneak attack. Depot Corridor knew they we're coming for a long time and was the government fall back location after Kaasu fell. The Vargr rely heavily on smaller corsair vessels going up against defense assets and an active Security Fleet. It's a completely different situation. Also Depot's are suppose to encompass the entire star system not just one facility.
IMTU, I left part of it standing and the Vaenggvae attempting to bring it down before Virus hit. Hence, virtually cut off I had a post virus Pocket Empire. The complete cutoff of Vilani and Deneb was an important element in the OTU MT/TNE in the invasion of Corridor scenario. Had Archduke of Vland and the Archduke of Deneb combined forces it might have been a different scenario.
So am I, assuming for purposes of argument that there's a difference.
If the alternative is giving him an invasion fleet it very likely is.
When you talk about conquering one Imperial world you're talking about conquering a whole lot more than that. Historically, the smallest chunk of the Imperium that has had a chance to stand up to its full might is somewhat over a full sector (Two examples, Julian League and Ilelish, one won, the other lost). So to talk about conquering just one or two worlds is highly unrealistic, because you'd have to be an imbecile to think that you would be allowed to keep it.
Same problem as with Aslan ihatei. Once the admiral has his invasion fleet, there are far easier nuts to crack than the Imperium. He'd be far likelier to conquer a nice little pocket empire if he goes somewhere else in the Vargr Extents.
Also, if the purpose is to get rid of the admiral, it's cheaper to give him a much smaller fleet and send him against a single world somewhere in the Extents than to give him a fleet that has a realistic chance against the Imperium. Come to that, there is no Vargr state that could afford to outfit a fleet with a realistic chance against the Imperium.
And if he takes his fleet and conquers a Vargr pocket empire somewhere, you're a moron. Not good for your charisma.
Does Argentine have the strength to conquer Rhode Island? I think it does. I also think that there's no chance that they'll ever try and no chance that the other 49 states would let it. I don't see the rationale for Argentine attacking Rhode Island, and I'm pretty sure it won't be done. And it's not just the sanity of a Vargr attack on Corridor that I question, it's the means and the determination to do so.
The correct spelling is 'sophont'. (Unless T5 has established a variant spelling).
Hans
I will mention that the original point was what would happen if all regular fleets in Corridor were sent to reinforce the Marches, leaving behind the reserve fleets and all the planetary navies and no Rebellion to distract potential reinforcements from the Imperial core.
(Mind you, I don't think the events of the Rebellion that involved the Vargr are realistic either, for much the same reasons as those above, but I've been over that discussion so often that I don't think I'll get into it again just now.)
So, regular fleets gone, everything else business as usual. Will the Vargr invade? I don't think so. Will they succeed if they do? Not a snowball's chance in the Gobi Desert.
Hans
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Condottiere
SOC-14 5K
Getting a combined Vargr fleet large enough to take on the Imperium may be similar to getting all the Greek city-states to contribute to one gathered to defend against the Persians.
Or herding cats.
Or herding cats.
Almost. I think it would be similar to getting all the Greek city-states to contribute to a fleet gathered to attack the Persians.
Or herding cats.
Hans
Thanks. I have not read the entire thread. But a Corridor conversation draws me briefly from my tasks.
I completely agree because of the Vland Fleet, and Core Fleet... Vargr's we're beaten down by the Imperium wars. Numerous client states we're developed and supported by the Imperium economically. That being said, this is not a fight for Vargr survival. The Vargr have easier prey and themselves to contend with.
The invasion in MT was a Charisma building competition that broke apart Vargr pocket empires. And they threw everything into it. We need to assume the Rebellion impacted Vargr trade. Hence, a failure in Imperium Charisma. Even with a move of the Corridor Fleet (5th Frontier War for example) the Imperium Charisma was intact with the Vargr. Probably strengthened. I'm sure trade went up significantly.
IMTU Vargr pre-MT pocket empire client states we're buying TL13 3I ships. It is a huge status symbol.
I offered to do at least one T5 book on this but got the cold shoulder, so I just went about my other projects.
Drakon
SOC-14 1K
Killing a popular and charismatic rival? Didn't work too well for Brutus et.al.
Or possibly a fanatic.
The objective is to remove a popular rival, in a way that causes the least amount of political hassles, at least in the short term. Whether the attacks succeed or fail, one can utilize either
It was stupid to invade Russia. But Napoleon did it anyway. So did Hitler about 130 years later, with the same results. The fact a military goal is stupid doesn't stop everyone.
The goal is not to simply get rid of the admiral, simple bullet to the head would do that far cheaper than an invasion fleet. The goal is to get rid of the admiral with the minimum of blowback, and possibly get reimbursed handsomely for one's devotion to the cause.
It is a risk either way. But I believe it would be hard to argue that one is helping the Vargr take their rightful place in the galaxy, then starts killing other Vargrs off. Especially a Vargr who generously helped
Argentina did not have the strength to keep the Falkland Isands, but that did not stop them from going against the British and getting their butts handed to them.
Determination I think can be created with sufficient religious fervor, possibly with help from Knouksarrgh Ong as well as other external agents for whom Vargr attacks on the Imperium would further other goals. The means I have not researched sufficiently, but again, I am not that worried whether the attacks succeeds or fails, the attempt serves the purpose of getting charismatic Vargrs out of my fur.
Drakon
SOC-14 1K
I found some stuff on the web concerning the topic of Vargr attacks during the rebellion. My understanding is this is quoting a specific work.
The choice of terms I find fasinating. "Coersion of the Corridor Depot's personnel" That indicates that it was not so much a fight, as some incident or stratagum forced the capitulation of the command at Depot.
I am not familiar with "pro V&V". If it is not canonical, then, never mind
http://gateway.pocketempires.com/g.htm
The choice of terms I find fasinating. "Coersion of the Corridor Depot's personnel" That indicates that it was not so much a fight, as some incident or stratagum forced the capitulation of the command at Depot.
I am not familiar with "pro V&V". If it is not canonical, then, never mind
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I found some stuff on the web concerning the topic of Vargr attacks during the rebellion. My understanding is this is quoting a specific work.
http://gateway.pocketempires.com/g.htm
The choice of terms I find fasinating. "Coersion of the Corridor Depot's personnel" That indicates that it was not so much a fight, as some incident or stratagum forced the capitulation of the command at Depot.
I am not familiar with "pro V&V". If it is not canonical, then, never mind
V&V is DG:Vilani and Vargr: That is a quote from V&V. (Published 1990) -Vargr history
DG MT Journal 2: Snapshot of the Occupation (Published 07/1991) - The fall of Kaasu
There is also DG MT Journal 3: Rapid Repo (Published 03/1992) - refers to Corridor Depot as the largest Depot w/ maps
SotO said "The Vaenggvae: Originally a band of Taarskoerzn corsairs, this group wrestled control of the Corridor Depot from Imperial hands." and "The Taarskoerzn navy, bolstered by corsair mercenaries, coerced and fought its way through Irrgh territory into human space."
This means that 500 TL13 or lower corsair ships, after months of battle, assaulted the Depot system, wiped out elements of the Reserve fleet, and the 70th Security Fleet. Passed or destroyed outer defenses and captured a TL15 Naval Depot with planetary defenses...yeah right. Oh with the Taarskoerzn navy also wiped out a million people on Lemish.
Of course, when 1248 was in development, I could not convince anyone how ridiculous this was. I also said that the Rapid Repo mission was rather inaccurate and nothing more than a smash and grab at some Depot System facilities.
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