They are avoidable Hans. Completely avoidable.
Your giving the Imperium Admiralty zero credit for planning and initiative.
The Imperial Corridor Fleet
- Thread starter tjoneslo
- Start date
They are avoidable Hans. Completely avoidable.
Your giving the Imperium Admiralty zero credit for planning and initiative.
ken at sunrise
SOC-12
Perhaps, but that's referring to the name only. I talking about the entire paragraph in the Rebellion Sourcebook. To me it's fairly clear they are separate fleets. But as you said in a private post:
savage said:
So maybe in your universe they are the same, in cannon they're not, in mine who knows...
Just have fun in the Traveller Universe
P.S. The book also shows more than one fleet with duplicate numbers, maybe that's the way the Imperium does it.
Last edited:
Of course they are avoidable. Who ever claimed otherwise?
I'm giving the Alkhalikoi emperors credit for having a regard for tradition and honor.
"... Disband the 14th Fleet that fought for Gustus. Have its memorabilia turned over to the Imperial Museum. Give the other one an accolade for supporting me. Next case."
"We have three 16th fleets, Your Imperial Majesty, the one created by Cleon I out of the Federation Navy's 16th Fleet, the one raised by Joseph in 618 after the first one declared for Ramala, and the one Gustus raised after the second one joined your cause."
"The first one has a long and honorable history and stayed quietly in its subsector during my fight with Gustus. It wouldn't be right to disband it or change its number. But the other joined me early and has done me great service, not the least blocking Admiral Coltand from joining up with Gustus before Second Zhimaway. I can't reward that with taking its identity from it. Disband Gustus' 16th Fleet. We'll keep both the other ones."
"But won't that be completely impossible for the Admiralty to handle?"
"Not unless they're complete morons. Hmmm. I see what you mean. Very well, give the first 16th Fleet the descriptor 'Cleonian' and the other one the descriptor 'Josephan'. Even a Grand Admiral should be able to distinguish between '16th Cleonian' and '16th Josephan'. Next case."
"We have three 16th fleets, Your Imperial Majesty, the one created by Cleon I out of the Federation Navy's 16th Fleet, the one raised by Joseph in 618 after the first one declared for Ramala, and the one Gustus raised after the second one joined your cause."
"The first one has a long and honorable history and stayed quietly in its subsector during my fight with Gustus. It wouldn't be right to disband it or change its number. But the other joined me early and has done me great service, not the least blocking Admiral Coltand from joining up with Gustus before Second Zhimaway. I can't reward that with taking its identity from it. Disband Gustus' 16th Fleet. We'll keep both the other ones."
"But won't that be completely impossible for the Admiralty to handle?"
"Not unless they're complete morons. Hmmm. I see what you mean. Very well, give the first 16th Fleet the descriptor 'Cleonian' and the other one the descriptor 'Josephan'. Even a Grand Admiral should be able to distinguish between '16th Cleonian' and '16th Josephan'. Next case."
Hans
Since, I was the first to bring this option up on the thread. I am also going to mention there is no foundation for it in canon, and that no dups are properly documented. I hesitate to accept it based on that logical reason. Also, the numbering system for fleets is far too simple to require it for any purpose.
That has been my point for 3 pages now...Vladika is right on one thing "...soap opera..."
Since I've refuted this claim before, I'll just cut and paste the response:
No one claims that it's necessary. Just that it could be so. And since there is canonical evidence of duplicate fleets, it should be assumed to be so (or some other explanation for duplicate fleets, if anyone can think of one, of course).
And it has been refuted again and again. It's wrong and it's not going to miraculously become right no matter how many times you repeat it.
We've reached the point where I can reply by cutting and pasting past answers, which is where I usually drop out of a discussion. Should you repeat your erroneous claim again and I fail to reply, please don't take that for aquiescence. It will merely be boredom.
Hans
For the rest of us.
Everyone else, As i said earlier.
There are two possibilities for YTU:
1. Fleet numeric duplication is planned and differentiated by names.
MT:RS fails and other books fail to clarify the issue.
2. The MT:RS MAP page is incorrect in numerous places with duplicate numbers or perhaps wartime confusion. There are many inconsistencies in strength and numbers (like traveller map data).
MgT:Sector Fleet (the latest publication) does not support anything about numbered fleets having names. On Page 39, it indicates Named fleets occur when multiple numbered fleets are joined. Nothing more!
MgT: Sector Fleet clearly discusses Spinward Marches assets without giving the numbered fleets any additional naming conventions.
Other books are incorrect in stating fleet information, so the latter would not be a surprise if number 2 was correct. Perhaps the next product resolves this point.
Everyone else, As i said earlier.
There are two possibilities for YTU:
1. Fleet numeric duplication is planned and differentiated by names.
MT:RS fails and other books fail to clarify the issue.
2. The MT:RS MAP page is incorrect in numerous places with duplicate numbers or perhaps wartime confusion. There are many inconsistencies in strength and numbers (like traveller map data).
MgT:Sector Fleet (the latest publication) does not support anything about numbered fleets having names. On Page 39, it indicates Named fleets occur when multiple numbered fleets are joined. Nothing more!
MgT: Sector Fleet clearly discusses Spinward Marches assets without giving the numbered fleets any additional naming conventions.
Other books are incorrect in stating fleet information, so the latter would not be a surprise if number 2 was correct. Perhaps the next product resolves this point.
Last edited:
Vladika
SOC-14 1K
Every time another Traveller publication comes out we get more errata, not less...
Why not hit DonM up with this and let him settle it?Every time another Traveller publication comes out we get more errata, not less...
It appears from an earlier post by Don that he and Marc Miller HAS settled it (duplicate fleet numbers are a mistake and will be/has been retconned). I'm just expressing my belief that such a retcon is a) unnecessary and b) leaves the OTU a little bit more bland.
Hans
ken at sunrise
SOC-12
I don't always make myself very clear but I'm talking about cannon. I'm sure people can play they own universe however they want. We don't need people telling them what to do; do we?
If Marc and Dom say there are not duplicate fleet number then cool; I'm good with that. If Rebellion Sourcebook is cannon without retcon then there are duplicate fleet numbers. I'm good either way
Is Mongoose Traveller cannon over Marc and Dom? I've been using CT and MT.
If Marc and Dom say there are not duplicate fleet number then cool; I'm good with that. If Rebellion Sourcebook is cannon without retcon then there are duplicate fleet numbers. I'm good either way
Is Mongoose Traveller cannon over Marc and Dom? I've been using CT and MT.
Vladika
SOC-14 1K
I agree in part with "a". I liked many of your arguments for the duplicate numbers due to war and shifting alliances. In general I hold that in normal circumstances it never would have happened.
"b" OTU has been to bland since the 3I became so all powerful. I preferred early CT days as there was less "government and more freedom". There were greater opportunities to be had without an overwhelming bureaucracy and naval presence.
There used to be encounter tables for a naval ship in system. There still are of course but why bother? It'd be a rare occurrence for there not to be with such large navies and strong central government. (Forgetting of course the virus and the rebellion.)
With the rebellion though, it could make life uncertain depending on who's navy was present. Be a royal pain to find your ships documents were signed off on by the "wrong" side.:devil:
ken at sunrise
SOC-12
Is this too off-topic?
I 'kind of' thought the Rebellion was good for this though. Now with the Imperium fragmented there's plenty of area in between the factions for adventures; or smack dab in the middle of one for more order and law; or trading between two (or more) for a little gun (contraband) running. Even the loose of the spinward Corridor Sector makes getting between the Marches and capitals (pick one) and adventure.
As for the virus what can I say.
I don't always make myself very clear but I'm talking about cannon. I'm sure people can play they own universe however they want. We don't need people telling them what to do; do we?
If Marc and Dom say there are not duplicate fleet number then cool; I'm good with that. If Rebellion Sourcebook is cannon without retcon then there are duplicate fleet numbers. I'm good either way
Is Mongoose Traveller cannon over Marc and Dom? I've been using CT and MT.
A little background:
Marc Miller is owner creator of FFE (formerly GDW) and DonM helps with keeping things moving forward. Mongoose outsourced Traveller from Marc.
Most of the other publishers work through Mongoose on MgT.
Also, its pre-published canon not cannon.
I'll help here.
Don wrote the Mongoose Zhodani book. Rob wrote the Mongoose Deneb Sector book. Both Rob and Don have drafts in progress on the "next" Mongoose book. I'm sort of stuck on mine, so I'll bet Rob will beat me to it. Although Matthew says he's going to beat us with Mercenary v2.
I also go around convincing some people who I think write well and know the material to write Mongoose books. And I coordinate the T5SS effort for Marc, although at the moment he has me researching OTU sophonts. I'm up to 319, but don't ask for the list yet. Once it's in a solid state, I'll get permission from Marc to post it here for comments and firebombs.
Anyway, Rob and Don kibitz on anything Marc throws at us, and we review most of the Mongoose books before they go to print, especially OTU material.
We also kibitz on Traveller-related 3rd party material when someone asks. Mostly because much of the Mongoose 3rd party stuff is excellent material, so when someone asks, I'll jump.
Still, unless it's errata, it's not official even if it comes from Rob or I (or anyone else) unless it's marked that way or in print (or PDF). My other hat is handling the legacy Traveller errata for Marc, and preparing T5 errata draft outlines for him to fold, spindle and mutilate.
Rob or Aramis will correct me if I left something out or got something wrong. Note that all of the above does NOT make me much of an OTU expert. If I'm preparing something OTU related, I'll go find folks I respect to tell me how much garbage I'm pushing. I like personal comments sent to be me to be hard and brutal, because I've found it makes for better results. YMMV.
Don wrote the Mongoose Zhodani book. Rob wrote the Mongoose Deneb Sector book. Both Rob and Don have drafts in progress on the "next" Mongoose book. I'm sort of stuck on mine, so I'll bet Rob will beat me to it. Although Matthew says he's going to beat us with Mercenary v2.
I also go around convincing some people who I think write well and know the material to write Mongoose books. And I coordinate the T5SS effort for Marc, although at the moment he has me researching OTU sophonts. I'm up to 319, but don't ask for the list yet. Once it's in a solid state, I'll get permission from Marc to post it here for comments and firebombs.
Anyway, Rob and Don kibitz on anything Marc throws at us, and we review most of the Mongoose books before they go to print, especially OTU material.
We also kibitz on Traveller-related 3rd party material when someone asks. Mostly because much of the Mongoose 3rd party stuff is excellent material, so when someone asks, I'll jump.
Still, unless it's errata, it's not official even if it comes from Rob or I (or anyone else) unless it's marked that way or in print (or PDF). My other hat is handling the legacy Traveller errata for Marc, and preparing T5 errata draft outlines for him to fold, spindle and mutilate.
Rob or Aramis will correct me if I left something out or got something wrong. Note that all of the above does NOT make me much of an OTU expert. If I'm preparing something OTU related, I'll go find folks I respect to tell me how much garbage I'm pushing. I like personal comments sent to be me to be hard and brutal, because I've found it makes for better results. YMMV.
Denmark is my idea off a small ship universe & the US of a large ship universe,
realised although I design large ships, I don't use them in Traveller RP sessions.
I had various games called 2nd Fleet, 5th Fleet, 7th Fleet & 3rd Fleet, which together covered most of the world (the wet parts).
Regards
David
Ahh, the classics Victory Games.
I liked Harpoon and Warship Commander. Or go back a little earlier to Age of Sail.
And all are greatly appreciated.
A job description page or on your profiles (all those that pitch in to help) may be useful to the new guys.
Rather than trumpet what we've done, I prefer to look forward to our upcoming works.
Have been reading 1248, trying to be more objective.
I'm mostly interested in Fleets.
Fleets in 1248 are very high level with a brief discussion on the scale in Spinward States. 100+k is a dreadnaught.
It really doesn't look like playtesting was involved, just storyboard.
I remember the original discussion when the Ghost Fleet was discussed on COTI...no new news there.
I'm mostly interested in Fleets.
Fleets in 1248 are very high level with a brief discussion on the scale in Spinward States. 100+k is a dreadnaught.
It really doesn't look like playtesting was involved, just storyboard.
I remember the original discussion when the Ghost Fleet was discussed on COTI...no new news there.
Or worse still your ships systems identify the enemy as 'friendly' and refuse to engage...
Kind Regards
David
I've ben reading the Rebellion Sourcebook and am puzzled at the Tlaukhu's behaviour. Dulinor assassinates their ambassador and they take no reprisal action.
I may not share the Aslan code of honour, but I'd be sending a Tlaukhu Fleet or 37 through Verge and attacking Dulinor from the rear whilst Lucan comes the other way.
Kind Regards
David
