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The Imperial TL14 and TL15 Cruisers

robject

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Cruisers

I am forming an opinionated concept on what Imperial TL14 and TL15 Cruisers are required to have. It appears as though they are designed as follows:

  • J3 M6, J4 M5, or J5 M4
  • Best possible computer
  • Nuclear damper = ?
  • Meson screen = ?
  • Most effective PA or Meson spine (typically PA H or N, Meson J or N)
  • Armor = ?
  • Fair to middling secondaries
At first glance, it seems as though cruisers are either Pouncers, designed to "strategically" outflank the enemy at an interstellar level, or Chasers, designed to outflank the enemy insystem.

I suspect that there are also J3 M6 Cruisers, just as there are J3 M6 Dreadnoughts (e.g. Kokirrak).
 
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That, and being flankers for battleships and carriers. Look at the naval doctrine of pre-WWII wet navies to get a good feel for what is what.



But then again, a few cruisers handled properly can hold off a bigger opponent. Nobody pre-WWII expected a bunch of escorts to fight off battlewagons, but the USN did this at Guadalcanal and at Leyte. Of course, the damage ratio was rather lopsided:(
 
That, and being flankers for battleships and carriers. Look at the naval doctrine of pre-WWII wet navies to get a good feel for what is what.

Thank you, that's a great use for the ships I had nicknamed "chasers". Flanking is a fun tactic for a wargame indeed.
 
A m-5 cruiser is not going to flank a m-6 BB.

Any line of battle ship, be it escort, cruiser or dreadnaught requires a manoeuvre and agility of 6.
 
You're right. Makes me wonder why those S9 ships have M5.

Meta-game reason: Because the writers of S9 had not analysed the combat system down to the tiniest detail.

Suggested in-game reason: Because in "reality" it is starkly impossible to analyse ship design down to the tiniest detail and the combat system is simplified and thus leaves out important details. So it turns out that ships with M5 are viable as long as various undefined concerns are taken into account. The map is not the territory; the ship stats are not the ship; the combat rules are not the "real" combat.

(As usual I put 'real' and 'reality' in quotes because the reality is fictional. But every bit as complicated as real life.)


Hans
 
Yes, they probably screwed up on the M ratings, but maybe not as bad as you think. M5 (and even M4 in the right place) cruisers are great second line vessels, having much more internal volume for beans, brains and bullets (stores, crew/marines, weapons/armor) and are very useful for merchant raiding (like the Graf Spee), for convoy escort, mopping up and other support operations. And for flanking a regular force using Jump coordinates, not speed (Task Force X jumps in at point N, Cruiser forces Y and X pop in at N+2, N-2)

Do not disavow the power of ships that are not the newest and shiniest. The old US WW1 4-stack destroyers performed yeoman duty in WWII, and most of the US battleship strength during WWII was also old, unshiny, heavily updated but slow WWI era (and before) vessels.


A multi-role, multi-purpose navy will have a variety of ships with a variety of capabilities. Think of the US Air Force in this respect. Sure, you want all the superfast bombers or fighters, but there is a vast field of "low and slow" needs to be filled, not to mention other roles. Every time the USAF has gotten rid of its slower, more powerful tactical aircraft, they have deeply regretted it. (So, as I sing the swan song for the A10, I push forward pity and regret to the groundpounders that will be forced to deal with less capable air support craft)

I know, mixing navy and air force, hurts, hurts. Okay, how about this? The USN's focus on nuclear subs and super-air defense frigates and mega-carriers since WWII left a huge gap in fire support and surface fighting ships. Sooooo, some WWII era Battleships were brought out of mothballs to fill that role very well every time the US got into conflicts within 60 miles of a shoreline. Now they are trying to build the Zumwalt class of high-tech destroyers to replace the job of a decent gun-cruiser. Boy, they never learn, do they?
 
Hans said:
[FONT=arial,helvetica] So it turns out that ships with M5 are viable as long as various undefined concerns are taken into account.
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In other words, Hans, dukurshaa, the inability of numbers to satisfy reality. Sort of a Heisenberg's principle for interstellar commerce and industry. Failure to differentiate statistics from reality is a sign of insanity in Vilani culture.
 
You're right. Makes me wonder why those S9 ships have M5.

See my post on kokirraks/plankwell:

J4 M5 59% of tonnage
J3 M6 51% of tonnage
J4 M6 62% of tonnage

Under the High Guard system, you could have one or the other, but at J4 M6 you used most of your tonnage add a bridge (2%) Pn minimum 6 (6%) now your up to 70% On a 50kton ship that leaves 15kton, Pn Fuel takes 3000, so that leaves 12kton, 2ktn for a spinal Meson N, 10kton. If you want anything else you'll have to drop that Jump or maneuver number down. (Note, no armor)
 
Assuming over about 10,000 tons and TL15, looking at best of best and shaving down from there:
Bridge: 2%
Maneuver: Drive 17% + Power plant 6% + fuel 6%
Jump drive + fuel: 12% for J-1 +11% per jump rating over 1, or 12/23/34/45
Meson Screens: fixed 40 dTons + 3.6% (power plant and fuel)
Nuclear Damper: fixed 200 dTons (including power plant and fuel to power it)
Weapons: turrets 1%, bays 5-10%
Spinal: fixed, weapon+power+fuel - call it 2800 for a J, 4000 for an N, 7200 for an R, 9400 for a T. Or as percentages: 1.4%/2%/3.6%/4.7% on a 200Kt, 5.6%/8%/14.4%/18.8% on a 50Kt, and you can calculate for other sizes.
Armor: 16%
crew: ~1%

There's a wee bit of fudge 'cause the power plant and crew don't quite calculate out perfectly that way, but it's a good starting point.

I would suggest that the price you pay in battle for shaving 0.4% or 0.8% off the meson screen just isn't worth it (not unless you're something destroyer-sized who intends to overwhelm the capital ship with sheer numbers, in which case drop the thing entirely and build more ships). I'd say same for damper unless you're flying an uber-armored buffered planetoid. I'd say also that in a meson universe, sacrificing agility is statistical suicide; I can run the numbers if you'd like, but gambling the whole ship so you can throw 5% more at your armor, jump range or spinal mount is never a good idea, IMO. Take the meson out of the picture and we can talk, but while it's pumping out a chance at a one-hit KO, best keep your speed up. So, total for best of all things: 41.6-46.6% + 240 dTons fixed before spinal, jump and armor.

Leaves you about 56% of your ship to share between the spinal, 5-16% armor, and 34-45% jump drive/fuel. Which immediately tells you that either the big gun, the armor, or the jump range are going to have to be compromised. It's also quickly apparent that there's less room for compromise on a cruiser.

On the other hand, the Imperial principal opponent is the Zho. Zho are down a point on the to-hit roll for computer, down a point again on the penetration roll for computer, and then another point (compared to the Impies' odds) for facing a better meson screen than they can build themselves, and then another half point for facing that meson screens with weaker spinals than the Impies can build. (The Zho spinal is bulkier and their power plants bigger for the same power level, but that tends to show up in reduced jump range so affects them more strategically than tactically.) I think it's the same with the Solomani and the Julians: their ships are lower tech. All in all, the Impies have the luxury of a bit of wiggle room because their opponents are generally inferior.

Me, I still wouldn't shave agility or - pity's sake, really?? - the meson screen. Still, the Impies can afford to gamble a bit to make room for other considerations - primarily so they can carry a bigger gun, it seems. Doesn't seem to be worthwhile in space battle - after a certain size, it's just overkill-city. Maybe they're useful in planetary bombardment: a 270 meter kill radius must be quite devastating against ground troops and installations, the more so because very few will have meson screens/computers that can repel it. Everything just flat dies in a circle a third of a mile across. I still think the N-meson is more than plenty, but for some military types it's always about the biggest bomb or the biggest gun.

Cruisers are a quarter the price of a dreadnought, and while the S-9 models aren't worth much against a solid boxer, they are the unholy demons from hell to an undefended world - and there's a whole lotta worlds that lack the pop and tech for adequate defenses. Forget the FFW boardgame and scatter a hundred or so of them into Zho space singly or in pairs with a decent destroyer escort and support, and they tie up at least as many Zho cruisers hunting them down while they go from world to world shooting up the freighters, disrupting commerce, dropping troops down to beat up the local army unit and write, "Kilroy was here," on the walls of the local starport, and in general making the locals very unhappy with their interstellar government for having started a war. 1-on-1, even the poorly designed S-9 cruisers are probably a match for a TL14 cruiser. (Though I'd still - oh, never mind.) Only reason I don't see them wrecking the starports and savaging worlds a la Survival Margin is that it'd be hard to keep the Zho from doing the same thing, by which I infer there's some sort of official or unofficial mutual understanding.

On the subject of forgetting FFW (and maybe a bit of other canon), I would dang well make sure every world with a halfway decent population had at least one meson-spinal-based planetary defense battery at my best tech for just that reason: only way to keep my worlds from being savaged from orbit by nukes and mesons is to give a credible threat to the attacker. A deep meson site is cheaper than a ship and persuades the enemy to either keep his distance or come in greater force to take out the threat. I find mutual understandings are ever so much more effective when backed by firepower.

Very ritualized, these interstellar cultures. Fight more like the Aztecs than the Romans.
 
I think the FFW wargame actually shows how the Imperial cruisers can be used - despite the limitations imposed by the "fleet" rules.

There is a very viable strategy as the Imperial player to send your cruisers through the neutral zone and into Zhodani space, wrecking havoc along the way and spewing drop troops onto poorly defended worlds to raid or occupy.
 
I think the FFW wargame actually shows how the Imperial cruisers can be used - despite the limitations imposed by the "fleet" rules.

There is a very viable strategy as the Imperial player to send your cruisers through the neutral zone and into Zhodani space, wrecking havoc along the way and spewing drop troops onto poorly defended worlds to raid or occupy.

Yeah, I always liked that gambit. Made good use of the mercs and the little Marine units, leaving a trail that the Zho player had to divert forces to clean up if he didn't want to lose. If you were smart about it, you could tie up a larger force, retreating and recovering some of your troops before he hit you and then making him chase you around to keep you from doing it again while the battle in Imperial space played out without his chase force.
 
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